Land Raider "Cathedral" update, and some other stuff ;)

So I have had a little time to work on some stuff and here is one of the things I have been buring the midnight oil with, it is my take on a Black Templar Land Raider Crusader. Here is the link to my original post;

It has been a rather difficult build in trying to solve the "draw bridge" problem of the front assault ramp, and where and how to place the assault cannon and multi-melta, all while not taking away from the overall look of the tank. Funny thing is, after all this work I am not sure if I am going to keep it, I may end up putting a coat of primer on it and selling it...time will tell though.

The front assault ramp will actually be a working LRC door, I am going to use a plain one with some green stuff work on it, it will be magnitized so it can openn and close. I have dropped the idea of the chains and draw bridge look, to hard to engineer and it wasnt working smoothly at all.

As far as the multi-melta asaualt cannon, I am going to build a weapon cluster that will sit atop the forst balcony, keeping everything at roughly there original postions.

Lastly the engine ehausts are going to be rebuilt to look like organ pipes, should add a nice touch I think. Anyway lots more photos here;

Email in: Hey dude! (Blood Angels!!!)

"Hi! I was told you are very good at stuff like armies and stuff in 40k.

I have only been playing a little while, but I am not very good yet, even though I thought I had a really strong army. Some friends of mine said there were some Blogs they found from Warseer, and this one guy I know (Dave) said that some King guy helped him loads with some Eldar stuff. I don't know loads about that, but his Bright Lances on his tanks always kill my tanks before I get close enough to charge him.

Since you are good at Marines, not like that king guy, I thought I should ask you if you can tell what's wrong with my list? Here's waht I use (we play 2000 points!)

Astorath the Grim - 220

Email in: Tau Help

"What's up Kirby?

I'm currently pondering doing a Tau army and I would like your help with my list. A couple of things. My thoughts behind the units I took. The Shas'els I took cause they're cheap and shoot like basic marines. Battle suits cause I think stealth suits, the alternative, could use some work and I think Crisis are better for dealing with light armour and MEQ, which I will see in my neck of the woods. kroot are decent chump blockers and cover save granters perhaps. They aren't beating up Khorne Berserkers but they can hold them back some.

Fire warriors for grabbing an objective later in the game or on my half of the table. Pathfinders to markerlight stuff and cause vespids stink. I like the pirhana models and they can be used to disrupt movement of the enemy. i know if the enemy troops have unrestricted path to my guys, then my game is over. I know Tau can't fight lol. Broadsides for the vehicle smack down. I am not sure about the configuration though. That is actually what prompted me to email you. Not sure about that. The hammer head is good for mobile smack down or template dropping.

I put gun drones on the DF and HH because I would dismount those guys early for more chump blocking goodness. Except KP of course. Anyway take a look and tell me how I can improve this. I haven't using played Tau since 3rd Edition when 9 broadsides and 72 fire warriors was a "fun" army. Lol!

Email in: Flesh Tearers - is it possible to make a 1500-point competitive Seth build?

"Hi Kirby

In response to my previous request for a competitive 1500-point Flesh Tearers build, you suggested that a Bloodhammer army was the way to go. I love this army and will be taking a variation on it to a doubles tournament in February. Will let you know how I get on, if I remember!

However, I was curious if you could come up with a 1500-point Flesh Tearers army which features Gabriel Seth? It is such a shame that our Chapter Master has no access to a jump pack! In light of this what is the best way to field Seth? In a Dread/Drop list? Immo-spam? Full Mech? Hybrid?

Thanks
Mercury

PS I have attached an image of one of my own Flesh Tearers - hope you like!"

Email in: Delicious Marines! Eat them up!

Good day mr Kirby

Well and merry christmas.
Been reading you blog for many months now and gobbled up anything Eldar, Tau and now Nids...
And that got me thinking long ago...Could I have nids Army that eats Marines for dinner.
At that point my job situation said NO....Pay your rent, and such borring things.

Now the situation have changed, and cool cash is not THAT big a problem anymore.
The job being a merchent sailor, who wont be home in another three weeks, you can take all the time you like answering :)
Im in no rush what so ever..
At my place we play 1250 points to 1750 so far, so a stepping stone to 1250 is what I have in mind.
Being new to Nids I would like some hints to a good starting 1250 nids list, which can be expanded with time.

I look forward to hear from you
Merry Christmas and happy new year :)

Niels Peter (Niller79)

Email: Lizardmen, yay or nay?

Ok, first proper article on here. Little bit nervous, not gonna lie. *straightens tie*Not got any theme music or fancy accent to hide behind up here. *fidgets* Right, let's get started then. Now, I'm going to respond to this in a manner different to the conventional one, because it's how I roll. I prefer to reply point by point, rather than write an essay at the end. It means you know exactly what I'm talking about. Here's the email:

"G'day Kirby,"

Well we have the same name in real life, so close enough I suppose. (:

"I was hoping that whomever is the Fantasy pro would be able to give me some advice on Lizardmen. I have just found a club that plays Fantasy and cycles between that and 40K. I would be playing with my brother's Lizards."

That fantasy pro would be me. And I would be more than happy to lend a hand. The ol' inherited army eh? Been there before. You're lucky to find a club that plays both games. I mean, mine does too. But you're still lucky. Imagine being stuck playing one game when you really wanted to play another. It'd be like having to write about fantasy articles when you really wanted t- *whip*

Email in: 1500 Tyranid list

"Hey, Kirby,

Love the blog! Here is a list I have been thinking about running. I mostly play against Space Marines (Curse you Assault Terminators!) and Orks (Hordes and Lootas…).

225 Hive Tyrant w/ Twin-linked Brainleech Worms x2, Old Adversary
150 Hive Guard x3
180 Zoanthrope x3
80 Termagant x16
185 Tervigon w/ Catalyst, Toxin Sacs
100 Warrior x3 w/ Barbed Strangler
190 Carnifex w/ Twin-linked Brainleech Worms x2
190 Carnifex w/ Twin-linked Brainleech Worms x2
200 Trygon
1500

What do you think? Also, tactic-wise I was thinking about running the Trygon forward with a Carnifex to each side and Tyrant behind for cover and Old Adversary. Hive Guard and Zoanthropes where needed. Termagants and Tervigon would target Assault Terminators or Nobs or be assault screen. Warriors for home objective and pester the hordes. What tactics would you use?

Thanks,
Brwrr"

fester's Orks: update on some models and painting

Hi guys, I know I should be working on the poll Tyranids but nobody seems interested in me building them an army!

Oh well, until that day comes, I have found some new focus with my Orks, and hope to put them together (and do some other toys too) by Centurion in March.

On to the filler content I mean hobby update!
This is my first Trukk, which is a Gorkamorka Trukk sandwiched between 2 Leman Russ tracks from an old Looted Russ I had laying around.

The theme is Speek Freakz, but all vehicles will have racing stripes of some description. This trukk also gets what might end up being the army logo mid-stripe for cool (I hope) effect.

Wolf Scouts vs. Speeders: the Same?

G'day AbusePuppy,

I tried to send you an email but I think my browser was naughty.

I would like to hear your thoughts on why the Scouts are *not* like Speeders, as per our small discussion on Space Wolf Grey that never came to fruition.

I think they have the exact same job of taking out Armour and give the gong to the Speeder in every category bar mêlée ~ of course :P

I am always open to being wrong and love being illuminated so I can get madder skeeyulz.

Cheers, Marshal Wilhelm

Came out of this discussion, which ended up rather circuitous, but (in my part of the conversation) brought up an interesting thought: how similar are Wolf Scouts and Speeders, anyways?

Both of them tote a single (usually) Meltagun. Both have the potential to arrive at inconvenient places, and both are fragile enough that they tend to be thrwaway units. However, in my opinion, they have grossly different roles in an army, not to mention occupying different slots (and thus competing with different units.)

Your Playstyle is Not a Unique and Special Flower

I am seriously getting tired of seeing this sort of thing.

"Yeah, TH/SS are pretty good but it depends on your playstyle. In my group mostly we think they're kinda useless, since regular Terminators already have Power Fists and they get a gun as well. Isn't 5E all about cover saves?"

"Well sure mostly Pariahs are pretty bad, but it depends on your playstyle. Some people can do really well with them!"

"I know the so-called mathhammer says that vanilla Devastators with Lascannons aren't very good, but with my playstyle they really work. To each his own!"

"Rhinos may be a good way to move to objectives, but with my playstyle they aren't as useful, because I pick up the little figures and fly them around the battlefield yelling 'ZOOM! ZOOM! GO, MAH SPEHSS MAHRHEENS!' which can get them onto almost any objective pretty quick. It's all about the kind of army you run."

No. F&%# you all. Holes in all of you. Your "playstyle" does not invalidate the fundamental tactical, strategic, and numerical concepts of the game. Liking to assault does not change how often an Autocannon glances a Rhino. It does not change how hard (or easy) it is to contest an objective. It does not change the ability of a mobile army to defeat the opponent in detail. It is, at best, a subtle flavoring to the type of army you are most suited to run, nothing more.

Playstyles are a good way to choose which army to play. They are a good way to choose which build of an army best suits the things you enjoy doing. They do not rewrite the friggin' codex so that up is down and short is long. Some units are bad and will always be bad until the book is changed. Some units are good and will always be good until a new edition of the base book is released. It is only on the corner cases, the units that are on the edge of playable or are good but not great that change from army to army in how they rate against other choices. Your "playstyle" has nothing to do with that. A good army is a good army in the hands of any player, even if that player may not use it to its fullest due to inexperience or other factors.

If you like a unit, that is fine. You are allowed to like units even if they aren't good. I like Biovores, okay? And Ymgarl Genestealers, too. You don't have to pretend that you're picking optimal choices when in truth you're just picking the coolest models. And if someone comes along and demolishes your list on the internets and explains that it is bad and terrible and there are many, many ways to improve it and you don't have any real counter-arguments, don't just resort to "well, it fits my playstyle." F%$@ you, that's not an argument, that's a fallacy.

Alright, are we clear here? Playstyles govern the type of list you build. The type of list you build governs the choices you want for that list. The codex governs the choices available. Your playstyle touches upon which units are good in a list only in the most vaguely indirect way, in much the same way that Canada and China share are alike because they both border the Pacific Ocean.

Email in: chaos space marines at 1500p

"Dear Kirby,

I’m a beginner in 40k and my chosen race is chaos space marines….they have the best backround for me by far, evil space marines, traitors, really,
really bad guys (shudder). Anyway, I have played a few games with friends models, I only have a chaos lord and daemon prince at the moment and I’m trying to come up with a competitive list at 1500p and circumvent our suppression fire-AT fire disadvantage. These are my two list, tell me what you think…one is a more basic list and the other is more hardcore…

Basic list

HQ

Khurdur-chaos lord, combimelta, daemon weapon, wings ( I just love this guy and he really isn’t bad…)
Daemon prince-Mark of nurgle-warptime, wings

Troops

10 CSM-meltagun, autocannon,meltaguns,asp.champ w/powerfist, rhino
9 CSM-meltagun, autocannon, asp.champ w/powerfist, rhino
8 Khorne berserkers-skull champ w/power weapon-rhino (ride w/ lord)

Collecting an army (part 4): Expanding the force!

Hello again, it has been a while! Since I last posted I messed my knee up quite spectacularly and hence thought a lot of hobby activities would take place but alas they have not, until now!

I have the 40k Open hosted at Maelstrom Games coming up in January which is a 6 game tournament, 3 games at 1500 and 3 at 1750. I’ve decided to take Space Wolves but after my last outing I felt the Loganwing was not particularly great, it certainly won’t work properly at 1500 and as such it is time to revise my list and in doing so add more models to my collection.

I am a wee bit upset to be playing in the Open as I missed out on the Masters (top 16 uk players on ranking HQ) by one place. Still, 2010 was my first year playing competitively in a long time and I used 4 different codexes over the year so I ought to be very happy overall!

I’ve decided on the following list for 1500:

Email in: 1750 Shooty Chaos list with Synergy? A little?

"Hey Kirbs it's me TheAngelKing47... was just wondering your thoughts on this list

160 Termi Lord with Mark of Tzeentch and Daemon Weapon (Gun)
125 Sorcerer Mark of Slaneesh and Lash

270 2x5 Plague Marines w/2x Melta
70 2x Dedicated Rhino

175 1x5 2x5 Plague Marines w/2x Plasma
35 1x Dedicated Rhino

215 4x Termis, MoT , w/reaper, power fist, combi flamer, combi melta (they're metal, I'm keeping them modeled that way)
245 Land Raider Daemonic Possession

Armies in 5th: Dark Eldar Part 5: Close Combat

Dark Eldar in the past have primarily been a shooting army (see old 3rd ed DL lance spam) even though they’ve always been identified as the ‘evil’ close combat army of the 40k world. Things like Shadowfield, Wyches, Incubi, Beastmasters, Talos, etc. have all created the fluffy image of DE being a combat army. Whilst this isn’t the full picture the new codex actually allows such a concept to be possible. Whilst an assault oriented army with no shooting just isn’t good, Dark Eldar are quite capable of fielding an assault based army with enough shooting and anti-tank to make it viable. The question is, how do you balance this within your army lists?

This is a question you come across with every army list so isn’t exactly unique to Dark Eldar but I’ve noticed a lot of lists either focus so much on assault units that their army is weak, assault is pretty much ignored (not a bad thing) or used as a deterrent (again, not a bad thing). This is not to say DE cannot make good assault lists but I think there is some confusion in relation to how DE assault forces work. DE are a highly aggressive army by nature. They are both a glass cannon and need to kill things to get stronger (Power from Pain) which both endears and repulses the DE combat army from wars of attrition. This is I think where a lot of the issues come in; how to use the DE assault force and what units to use for what roles.

The New Kid.




This is apparently what my handle
makes people think of.

  Hello 3++ readers,

I'm the New Kid. Kirby just asked me to join 3++ as a regular (irregular is what he's getting) and I thought I may as well take him up on it. So, now I'm part of the legendary slave labour force that keeps 3++ churning quality stuff out to the masses. So if you don't mind humouring me, I'll talk a bit about myself. I'm Will/Billy Cruickshanks (Billy if Kirby's about, as he's also Will and there can be only one). I live in Scotland and am a huge geek. Anything "geeky" and I'm probably a practitioner, or have at least tried it. So I should fit in fine round here (:. I'm a regular, usually in the chatbox, and play all the game systems discussed on 3++.

I really have no idea what to write here. Uhhh... my preferred topics for advice would probably be Fantasy (this is loaded, means I'm going to get ALL the WHFB emails >: so do me a favour and just don't ask! :P), Warmahordes (although I'm pretty new at it), and 40k. I've been playing 40k the longest but play(ed) more WHFB and have done some extensive playing of the new edition (which I've actually stopped playing, but that's cause I have a 40k tourney up and coming and have fallen in love with Warmahordes). If you want more WHFB stuff check out http://kavzar.blogspot.com/. Kirby is delusional if he things I of ALL people wouldn't plug in here.

Ok so, WHFB, Warmahordes, 40k, but only competitive play. It's how I roll,

Archy

Email in: Dark Angel list advice

"Hi Kirby,

First off the customary love the blog ! Great articles provided by yourself and your contributors.

I'd appreciate it If I could get some help putting together a DA list, centered around Deathwing in midfield with appropriate units to support them. At 1500pts I came up with this :-

Belial with Lightning Claws

Deathwing with Cyclone Missile Launcher, Chain Fist and Apothecary
Deathwing with Cyclone Missile Launcher and Chain Fist
Deathwing with Cyclone Missile Launcher and Chain Fist

Email in: Undivided 40k Chaos list

"Kirby,

Let me know what you think of this list. It’s my effort to try to devise a pure undivided Chaos list that actually has a chance of working:

It’s not really a subtle list; you’ve got a bunch of CSMs doing midfield work or holding objectives, the requisite DPs, some bikes for screening, and some teleporting midfield support. The bikes rush forward, and if I’m real lucky, survive for a turn and then have oblits and terminators dump down onto their icons. The Havoc launchers are for horde control. I admit that it’s like trying to make a silk purse from a sow’s ear to do this kind of thing 1) with Chaos and 2) with no PMs, but I don’t think this list is so awful.

What I think is different is the attention to not taking the terribad asp champ upgrades that plague these lists, and to using min-sized squads to make so-so FA choices more palatable. Any suggestions for improvement based on the theme? My thinking is that maybe the third CSM squad is a bit much, and maybe I should dump the points into another terminator squad and fill out the oblits more.

Email in: Would y'all mind looking at this Dark Eldar list?

"John and Kirbs-

I've been laid up over the last 3 months due to a series of foot surgeries that have seen me unable to go to school and work, so I've had a bit too much time to lay around painting and dreaming up lists. After finishing up some of my Chaos, I hopped on the Dark Eldar bandwagon, my first army that's not T4 with a 3+ in about 3 years. I've got a fair few Raiders painted up in a chrome-like paint scheme, now I just need to start on the grunts. Before I did I thought I'd run the list I plan on using for the next few months by whichever one of you can spare a few minutes. So anyways, the list:

Succubus w/Blast Pistol, Agoniser
Haemonculus w/Liquifier, Scissorhand
3x3x Trueborn w/3x Blasters w/Venom w/2x Cannon
8x Wyches w/Shardmnet, Heratrix w/Blast Pistol, Agoniser, PGL, Raider w/FF, shock prow
2x10x Warriors w/Splinter Cannon, Raider w/FF
2x5x Warriors w/Blaster, Sybarite w/Blast Pistol, Venom w/2x Cannon
3x Ravager w/NS, FF

Taak's Dread Wolves - 1750pts

On the 13th of April this year, I decided I wanted to build an aggressive tournament space wolf list. I cracked a thread over on the bolter and chainsword because whilst there is alot of noise there, in amongst it all is a hardened core which provides very solid discussion and it is, as a whole, a much quieter place then some of the larger forums like heresy online. Anyways, the original list was a Canis Wolfborn Thunderwolf spam list with tri-vindicators and no scoring units, just fenrisian wolf spam. It was amusing, if not so competitive. 3 months later, numerous games and numerous revisions later we see the evolution come to a stand still as it formed into what I would call "Taak's Dread Wolves", an unimaginative name that basically includes the two key elements of Dreadnoughts and Thunderwolves. At 1750pts, the list served me for a long time and did quite well for itself. But I haven't, in all this time, posted it outside of the B&C Forum where a very solid 3 page evolving list discussion took place. Indeed, there's a reference in the comments section of Kirby's Blood Rodeo to the list, so in view of Centurion and Event Horizon coming up in the next several months, I think it's time to drag out my Dread Wolves so the rest of you can have a look and discuss.

The original thread can be found here: 

And I suggest you all take the time to read through it completely. Don't skip things else you'll be asking things like why did I run a single vindicator in one of the revisions, or why I did this horrendously stupid thing here and there. More importantly however, you'll see how the list developed and why it is at the stage where it is now.

Email in: Hybrid Wolves for Centurion

So last night I played another practice game on Vassal against Kyle. The game went very late....very late! Anyway, Kyle isn't exactly rolling in cash (like most of us) still being at school so he's limited somewhat by the models he has and which he's purchased so far. There were a few things last night's game showed up in his list so let's take a look at what he has and how we can tweak it as cheaply as possible!

"Well my model list as requested is as follows:
2 and a half Thunderwolves
8-12 fenrisian wolves (depends on how much compensationary wolves)
5 Rhinos/Razorbacks (can buy more)
Land Raider Crusader
Vindicator
2 Dreadnoughts (One has a close combat weapon attached)
About 30-40 Grey Hunters/Blood Claws/Wolf Guard/Rune Priests/WGBL you get the picture
5 Wolf Guard terminators
5-7 Wolf Scouts
Drop Pod

Email in: Requesting advice on my BA jump/hybrid list

"Hi Kirby,

My name's Samuel, from Italy.
I recently started to play 40K and found (by choiche, I admit it :)) your site, full of deep and useful info about the miniature universe. I want to thank you and the other admins because your site really helped to me to improve my knowledge of the game.

I would ask you a little help and an advice about a BA jump/hybrid list, I'm trying to build up:

Librarian Jp (shield, lance)125
Assault Squad A1 PF, 2 melta, +5 models235
Blood priest Jp, LC90
Assault Squad B1 PF, flamer, +5 models225
Blood priest Jp75
Devastator squad4 ML130
Scout squad4 precision rifle, ML, cloaks100
Honor GuardJP, 3 melta195
Assault Bike2 bikes, 2 melta100
Vanguard VeteransJP, MB, galive+SS, PF, LC+SS225

Email in: Tyranid Warrior Needs Food, Badly!

"Hey Kirb (or any of the cheery fellows at the 3++ blog),

I've really enjoyed the articles that are hosted on the 3++ page, very informative. However I've recently run into a quandary. I'm kicking around the idea of making a Tyranid army, and I think that the warrior broods are really shiny. It could be that I'm new to the 'Nids or that I've yet to really grasp the content of their Codex, but it seems to me that the Warrior broods are one of the most versatile units in the book. I scoured the web, but haven't really run into anything that mentions a list quite like the one i'm planning, but that can easily be because I don't know what I'm doing. Is there a good reason why I don't see too many Warrior broods on the table? To give you a better frame work to operate on here is a sample 1750 list that I'm thinking of building.

Blood Hammer versus Tyranids

There is a mini bat-rep between AbusePuppy and I 3++ - The Painting Side seen here. It's on Vassal hence why it's up over there and was me using my Blood Hammer versus a Neozilla list with Harpies, HG, T-Fex, Tervigons and Tyrant. Was a good and close game with some great fun on skype and with the audience. Ironically it has nothing to do with the discussion going on atm relating to Jumper armies but wanted to practice Centurion lists and Puppy was using Tyranids so went BA rather than my own Tyranids (silly Vassal only has one color scheme for Nids with T-Fexes).

Anywho was an enjoyable couple of hours and good practice for us both!  Apparently there was also a play-tester for GW in the chatbox today so some people may have gleaned some info. TKE, spill the beans please as you were there! lol

Building Tyranids to 2000: Thoughts?

So I'm looking to expand my "regular" army to 2000pts; until now, I've been able to field 2K or more, but I haven't really had much of a standard build for it, so I'm looking to solidify things down a bit. TSHFT is coming up on spring here and there's a shop north of me in Salem that runs regular 2K tournaments that I'd like to try hitting up more often, both of which are good encouragements to work on this project a bit.

So! I have several lists that I'm trying to narrow down, but having spent so much time staring at them over the past couple of weeks, I think I need some outside thoughts on things to get perspective.

Email in: 2000 Duke Sliscus list for C&C

"So I think I've found a list I kinda like from the DE codex. Thought I'd run it past you, see what you think.

Duke Sliscus - 150

4 Kabalite Trueborn, Shardcarbine x4, Venom, Splinter Cannon x2 - 133
4 Kabalite Trueborn, 2 blaster, 2 shredder, Venom, Splinter Cannon x2 - 153
4 Kabalite Trueborn, 2 blaster, 2 shredder, Venom, Splinter Cannon x2 - 153

10 Wyches, 2 shardnets/impalers, Hekatrix with agonizer, Raider, flickerfield - 220
10 Wyches, 2 shardnets/impalers, Hekatrix with agonizer, Raider, flickerfield - 220
10 Wyches, 2 shardnets/impalers, Hekatrix with agonizer, Raider, flickerfield - 220
5 Warriors, blaster, Venom, Splinter Cannonx2 - 125
5 Warriors, blaster, Venom, Splinter Cannonx2 - 125

Email in: Space Wolves

"Dear Kirby,

I write to ask your advice and suggestions on th following list. I came accross your blog a few months ago and since then have been a daily reader cheking back several times a day. I want to build an in-you-face combat based list using the Space Wolf codex, but I want to model them as Knorne Bezerkers and for the force to be as small as possible.

We play 1500 points in my local area and I'd like for the list to be able to hold its own against tournament style forces, and indeed, be useable in a tournament.

Logan Grimnar - 275

Canis Wolfborn - 185

Reply to Big_Black_Fiend: Descent of Angels/Jumper Armies

It’s a slow day so I’m going to put up some comments from the thread Puppy and I keep talking about over on BoLS by BBF. Again, he’s done a decent job of analysing the Jumper army but is fixated on a couple of things. Puppy’s already written his reply and I’m going to write mine. Maybe we can make FNIF Round 44!... So BBF really likes Stormravens in his Jumper lists and throws out the usual ‘you’re not using it right’, ‘it takes time to get used to’, ‘it works for met’, etc. arguments without actually refuting anything we’ve said. Let’s take a look at his most recent reply to me which I’ll snowmobile!


Kirby

You are starting to repeat the same things now. Well counter them. Do you really want to pay 200+ points for a single vehicle in an army which isn’t exactly hard to suppress? 3 BS4 MLs will do it without cover. You are also ignoring many of the points I've made why to run a Stormraven in a DoA army. Hmm I can't seem to recall me ignoring them; oh well let's see! And you are ignoring nearly every point we’ve made about why you shouldn’t include them; clearly tit for tat!

Stormravens: Not FOR You

The Stormraven is an excellent addition to the Blood Angel's arsenal- it is not only a fast skimmer, it also is an assault vehicle and carries non-ignorable amounts of shooting. It's a fantastic way to deliver not one but TWO units into close combat with the enemy.

That doesn't mean it can or should go in every army, however.

In a recent thread at BoLS, our friend BBF wrote a fairly decent article, but kneecapped himself at the end by espousing the virtues of the Stormraven in DoA/jumpers lists. After a bit of arguing DisQuis's crappy comment system broke down, making further replies impossible, so I'm pasting things over here in hoeps that we can get some good discussion out of things.

I probably don't need to say this, but just as with the Orc articles in the past and other controversial subjects this isn't here as a way to point and laugh at someone I/we disagree with, it's intended as a forum for open discussion. Disagree all you want, but keep it civil.

The below text is BBF's last post; parts in quotation marks are him quoting my own text from the post before that.

More Rifledreads!

Here's a nice quick post for you all to enjoy whilst I'm eating my ham! Thanks to Daniel I've got more Rifledread pics! Fully painted too unlike mine. Kudos to Daniel who used only AoBR Dreads and Aegis Defense Line Kits to bling these guys up and send dakka downfield!

Happy Holidays!

Well Merry Christmas to all of you individuals who celebrate it and Merry other holiday to all those who don't or celebrate something different! Go being many hours ahead of most you! A nice relaxing day for me running from my apartment to...well everywhere. Joyjoy! Hope everyone and their family's  have a great holiday season and you get lots of yummy food!

Best Wishes,
Kirby and the crew from 3++

P.S. 3++ and 3++ the painting side should now be up on http://www.blogged.com/

Email in: 1500pt IG Army; Round 1

"Hey Will,

Recently I have been feeling like starting another army that is different than SM's. I have the BT's and the BA's which are both a very assaulty armies, I was thinking of something that kind of sits back and shoots a bit, not to mention those valks are some of the coolest looking models around. So I set out to look at building an aircav @ 1500, and honestly it really wasnt looking good, being able to only shoot at three targets per round really hurts, unless guys are started on the board and in the birds, a aircav/footsloggin hybrid if you will. So between finals I have been trying to come up with a decent aircav type list @1500pts, and this is what I have, it's not really air cav, more of a mixed basket really, but it seems to cover the basics, while providing the elements I like, would you mind taking a look at it and see what can be improved?

HQ
Company Com. Squad
Astropath
Flamers x 4
100

Blood Angels Jump Pack Army: Overview of Tactics and Unit Selection

Consider this my holiday article to you!

So Jumper armies...I get a lot of questions relating to them in terms of emails and PMs and whilst there are quite a few good articles on Jumper armies in relation to unit selection, a brief guide on how to use them and making certain variants, etc., there really isn’t condensation of information. So this article is going to attempt to do that. Whilst the other articles have gone into more depth in their perspective focuses, this will be a more overview related article which looks at how the army plays.

Now first off, some of you may have seen BFF's post relating to Jumper armies on BoLS (where someone kindly linked my How To from). This is a pretty good article for BoLS standards if you exclude the inclusion of the Stormraven (one-two vehicles in a foot army? No thanks). Just so we’re clear, Stormravens and vehicles fit well into Jumper or Jumper/Dev lists unless you really work to get them in (i.e. Stormravens and Speeders) which then becomes a completely different army dynamic. This post is not focusing on that.

So let’s begin. In the original How To’s on Jumper armies we discussed what units were good and bad selections. Obviously anything with a Jump Pack is in for a DoA army in terms of synergy. However, many army lists also include Scouts or Devastators for some backfield suppression/supporting fire. Before we take a quick unit run-down though let’s take a look at the Jumper army concept first. We’ll then have a better idea on what our units need to do and why certain ones are included and others aren’t.

Email in: 2,000pt Raven Guard - Redo

"Kirby and Co.

I've emailed you before for advice on my 2,000pt Raven Guard list and I ended up taking
some of it to completely redo my list. Here is a list I'm currently play testing:

Shrike 195
Lib w/NZ and Avenger 100
2 x 10 Terms (1 LC, 9 TH/SS) 800
10 Tac w/Flamer, LasCan, Rhino 215
10 Tac w/Melta, MM, Combi-Melta, Rhino 220
3 x Dakka Preds 255
10 ASM w/PFist 215
Total 2,000

My 4 playtest game results:
Win vs. Chaos w/ deamons - DOW, Kill points
Win vs. "Leafblower" - Spearhead, 3 Objectives
Loss vs. "Footdar" - Pitched battle, 5 Objectives (lost 1-0)
Tie vs. Sisters - DOW, 3 objectives (7th turn killed me)

Granted, 4 games is not a great sample, but I think the army is doing pretty well so far.
What I've learned:
- 20 Assault Terms with fleet make people cringe.
- those Terms draw lots of fire.
- KP missions = golden, Objectives = much tougher.
- I roll a lot of 1s, especially when moving vehicles through terrain
- I hate Eldrad

Email in: Wolfwing

"Kirby

Have been a long time lurker I really like your site. I usually play vanilla space marines and white scars but recent;y I was building a Space Wolf army for my friend and was struck by how nice the kits were. I would like to put together a list that is different then all the other TWC. Razor Spam or rhino spam lists that we have in Chicago. It doesn't have to be hyper competitive as I have the other Marines for that but I still want it to put up a fight. I would like to use a Wolfwing lst because A. Small model count. I dont want to put together an d paint a ton more spacewolves B. No one else has one in the area. C. I want to use both termies and powered armored troops. I am not adverse to mixing PA and TDA in squads and would probably like to have a unit of long fangs to run with Logan. ( I love the idea of a unit with multimeltas and a meltagun and a Wolfguard with Logan droping next to something.) I also would like options to use drop pods but I really dont want any rhino chassis vehicles. I also would use speeders and even dreads. I just have no direction and would like to see what you guys come up with.

Thanks
Greg"

Comparison: Tau Fire Warriors and Kroot Carnivores

The much maligned Fire Warrior. In the real 40k world, these guys are generally frowned upon for not bringing anything to the table and have resulted in ridicule such as this by VT2 or negative reviews such as this. Yet people still maintain they are effective (and down-right deadly) Troop choice for a Tau army. So let’s do a down and dirty comparison with the other Troop choice for Tau, Kroot. These guys are the exact opposite of Fire Warriors in terms of use and liking by the players. Those who say Fire Warriors suck generally love Kroot and vice versa. Whilst we’ve done a post before on alternatives for Kroot (i.e. model wise) this post is comparing the two choices in terms of use on the table-top.

Both Troops aren’t that expensive when compared to Marines. Kroot are a paltry 7 points and have the option for even cheaper Hounds (6 pts) whilst Fire Warriors are still a serviceable 10 points. However, compared to the new Kabalite Warrior from DE which is 9 points and whilst their shooting isn’t as good against T3 or worse infantry and can’t damage tanks with their basic guns, their statline is infinitely better and they can take special/heavy weapons. This is one of the major drawbacks for both Tau Troops, the inability to take special or heavy weapons. This relegates both units to an anti-infantry role which the Tau army as a whole generally does quite well. Oddly enough, both of these units are on par in terms of actual anti-infantry ability. Whilst Fire Warriors are obviously better with their S5 guns, the cheaper cost of Kroot brings an equal number of points onto the same level as Fire Warrior shooting against infantry targets. Whilst Fire Warriors are obviously better against higher T targets, have mildly better range and have some minor applicability against AV10/11 vehicles, in terms of raw output against infantry targets via shooting, these units are quite similar.

Email in: Centurion Mech BA lists for discussion

"Hey Kirby,

Ok it doesn't really, but I really would like a response before Christmas so I can go out and buy all this stuff in one go. Which will be fun to build. Right, basically I've boiled it down to 4 lists pretty much as we discussed mech BA this morning. Thing is, this morning I somehow forgot upgrading my Heavyflamerbacks to Assbacks is 175pts. Not sure how I forgot it but hey. Right, let's have a look see. The lists are in a short format so this email isn't huge.

List A:
Libby w/Blood Lance + Shield of Sanguinius
Sanguinary Priest
5 Units of 5 ASM w/ Infernus + Melta, in Razorbacks w/Heavy Flamers + HKMs
3 Baals w/TLAC, Heavy Bolter Sponsons + HKMs
3 Dreadnoughts w/2 TLAC

Email in: 1500 point Space Marines - Help for a new player (well... 2nd ed. player)

"Hello Kirby,

I recently started reading your website having got the urge (and disposable income!) to start collecting and playing 40k again after a break of many many years. I'm an ex- 2nd Edition player, and long ago most miniatures that were not sold have long since been lost in moves and boxes, and I'm making a fresh start on building and painting a new Space Marine force. I'm hoping you'll be able to give me some help with formulating a list to build towards.

I'm looking at 1500pts initially and have a few ideas gleaned from your website and others, but I'm a little wary as whilst they bear some similarities to other lists and things I've read about, they also include some potentially strange choices.

Can armies like these be competitive? I like the idea of potentially hot-dropping stuff on people, hence the drop pods, teleport homers, etc...

1.

Centurion: Orks list considerations for the TO

So, after reassessing the codex and re-reading a few things I have come to see the 'dex in a new (pink?) light.

I am not converting to the nfluger bandwagon that Orks are better than sliced bread, but I am starting to look at avenues that I haven't explored before in my gameplay... Fast Attack.

Now this sounds funny to many of you, but my Ork armies are largely based around horde-ish behaviour... either foot hordes of Battlewagon Hordes, neither of which leave much space for FA choices.

So this Xmas I am going to break the trend and start working on a Speed Freaks list. I can't be bothered doing a biker army, though it would be nice. Now as I have some minor (read: comp) restrictions that I have to adhere to I shouldn't go overboard ... too much.

As you will see below, I have lifted this concept from MVB, which is 2000 points and generally FREAKING INSANE.

We play 1750 in Australia, and I need something to battle the threat of Kirby at the pre-Centurion game that isn't simply a horde of boys he can throw dice at. Sounds boring anyway and check out fester's new stuff on 3++ - The painting side! fester's Waaaagh! and he posted about this later...whatever!

Rifledreads: All for one now!

Sorry a quick post for this morning as I am literally rushing out the door. First off, according to Nick/TastyTaste over from Blood of Kittens, we are the best tactics blog around. Go us. I'd love to make a little addendum to his description of 3++...

"As other tactical blogs have failed or faded away 3++ has kept on getting bigger and better. With multiple authors and a fearless leader this blog gives you all the advice you ever want without making you feel like a total idiot. They keep current and consistent with what they believe is good or bad about 40k. While you may not always agree with what they have to say their opinions are backed by thoughtful explanation with humor mixed in.  3++ also surprisingly features an IRC flashback a  chat room where anyone  is welcome to discuss 40k or any wargame.  If there is one place to talk tactical shop this is the place."

Whilst we are consistent we are also willing to see reason and if our stance proves incorrect, we are happy to admit our mistakes and cross the room! Just sometimes goodluck proving our stance is incorrect! haha. Anyway, thanks for the shoutout and I hope we can maintain this 'title' lol =D.

Using old Dakkafexes: The Fexstar @ 2000 points

The majority of the old Tyranid players complain about their old Carnifexes being useless a lot; don’t they? Well let’s shut them up and show them how Carnifexes can be used in a true Fexstar list. This will be using everyone’s old Dakkafexes and combining them with the new Tyranid army to make an effective 5th ed list. There are a couple ways to do this but let’s start with our Dakkafexes. Most people have three but we want to take advantage of Broods so we’re going to take four Dakkafexes in two broods of two. Whilst this limits our damage potential and some flexibility is lost, these 380 point units are very scary T6/W8 monsters which can be joined by Tyranid Primes. Obviously all of the Fexes have been given 2x TL-Brainleech Devourers which gives us a lot of accurate S6 firepower on the go and an impressive presence in combat. This sets us back a whopping 760 points! We are going to need to add in two Primes as well to abuse wound allocation and cover and to make sure those Fexes are striking in combat! A Prime w/lash whip, bone sword, toxin and regeneration costs 115 points and taking two sends us down to 990 points used.

So we’ve got some impressive midfield survivability, suppression fire and combat ability but we need to add to our anti-horde and true anti-tank ability. We’ll start with our anti-tank and look at Hive Guard. We have a mild conundrum here as we’d like some Venomthropes as well to make our midfield a bit scarier to assault and always have cover on the Fexes. However, with the Primes in this current incarnation of the list we should be able to generate cover for the Fexes more easily so for the moment we will just run with Hive Guard. We’ll want a minimum of 6 but we’d prefer 9 so let’s put in 9 for the moment and see what we can work with from there. This sets us back 450 points to a total of 1440 and 560 left. Going to be tight once we add our midfield in!

1,000th post! Irony of Vanilla Marines and Tyranid re-thinks for Centurion

Welcome to the 1,000th post on 3++...a couple weeks on from 3++ being active for a year and we hit another pretty big milestone. Taking a look back and we see 3++ started out slowly with a post roughly every two days in December and January which picked up to roughly daily as people started to read 3++ and twice a day into March as the blog started to take off and BA emerged on the scene. Fast forward nine months and several guest authors posting 20 or more posts individually and we’re looking at roughly 120 blog posts a month (or roughly 4 a day). Very impressive and the amount of hits and feedback each post gets is quite impressive, too. Once again thanks to all the readers, e-mailers, commenters, authors, pink stuff, etc. for making such a great community!

Let’s get down to business shall we?

I’m sure many readers are quite rehearsed currently in my troubles getting my Mech Marines ready for Centurion. The great irony? There’s nothing wrong with the list, there’s just something wrong with what I want to do with it. Let’s just clear things up in case they are a bit muddy: Vanilla Marines (particularly the 1750 Mech Marine build) are still an effective and competitive choice and my wish to change my army isn’t a reflection of their assumed ‘poor competitive standing.’ Rather, it’s too defensive for my general liking at this particular moment. Take a look at the bat-reps; even with bad terrain management and a bunch of MCs and meltaguns, my army was able to essentially attrition the other army away by simply sticking around. That’s what you get with 30 Marines and 14 tanks at 1750. Whilst changes could be made to make the list more offensive such as Terminators, more LasPlas, ACLC Preds, etc. I think at this points level unless you’re taking 10 Terminators, your list is better off done with SW due to their improved capacity for MSU Grey Hunters over MSU Marines. Hell I could transfer the list to SW and get more firepower and more combat ability at the cost of the Speeders (obviously less combat ability than the 10 TH/SS option) which would suit the style of play I'm aiming for better. Do I want to do this? Not really because I’m tired of the Internet harping on about BA/SW/IG and how uber they are compared to the other books.

Email In: 1000pts of Elysians (IA8)

Hi Kirby & co ! Your blog has quickly become one of my preferred W40K blogs thanks to the topics covered and the lack of emo-bitching. I enjoy your codex reviews, army analysis and concepts discussions.

I’ve gifted myself with a FW present for Christmas, and will likely spend 2011 building and painting an Elysean Guard force, using the IA8 list. After a careful reading of Dethron’s review, here’s what I’ve came up with at 1000 pts (painting those dudes and birds will take time, so let’s start it small but manageable).

HQ: 60 pts

Company Command Squad, Vox-Caster

Troops 1: 285 pts

Veterans, 2 Metlaguns, 1 Heavy Flamer, Vox-Caster, Demolitions doctrine

Valkyrie, 2 Multiple Rocket Pods

Rebalancing Apocalypse Strategems

Apocalypse.

Aside from GW's "you should buy more models!" gimmick, it's also a good way to relax with some folks and do absolutely ridiculous things on the table. 10" blast templates, first turn assaults, models that are physically larger than the player controlling them... Apocalypse is filled with many absurd things. One thing it is not filled with, however, is balance- anyone who's played it before knows that many of the units, formations, and assets are grossly unbalanced (one way or the other), which is something of par for GW's course.

I am of the opinion that better balance always serves a game well. "Competitive" play (if that can even be said to apply to Apoc) obviously benefits from it, but casual play does as well- no one likes being matched up against something unfair, nor to win because a poorly-designed unit made it too easy. So a rebalancing of Apocalypse could make the game more attractive to players and also make games less contentious when played by strangers (such as at a convention or gaming store.)

The first step, then, to make Apocalypse more playable is to take the basic rules and give them a rundown. The one thing that stands out the most are the Strategic Assets, which vary from utterly worthless to nigh-unstoppable. Tweaking these is a good start on bringing balance to the game and relatively easy to fix.

Email in: Fast n Slow ... Orks?

After a long grace period I got back into 40k to disastrous results and after reading the internets and finding some helpful blogs such as yours I've significantly upped my game and being a lover of a challenge I'm out to play competitively with Orks (I've also got a very solid Tau army) but with orks being somewhat sub-optimal I thought I could have a stab at taking some of your ideas and applying them in a different way.

I thought this had some potential and is an army I really want to run and I think can be competitive but I wanted your opinion and some input.  I've been a reader for the last few months and I respect your opinions and enjoy your articles greatly. 

Well, sorry to disappoint, but Kirby has flicked your list to me, little ol' fester to have a looksee at.

Lets see what we have down here...

Reply: Fast Transport Vehicles

GDMNV has discussed the ruling relating to fast vehicles and passengers. In the most recent FAQ it was clarified passengers in a transport which moves flat out and in the same player’s turn (pg 9 BRB) is destroyed, then the passengers are killed. We both agree on this as it’s quite clear based on this ruling:

“Passengers may not embark or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in that movement phase.”

However, there is an important word GDMNV has missed in his interpretation of opponent’s shooting at transports having gone fast. Because of pg9, the FAQ clarification is only indicating passengers are removed as casualties if the transport is destroyed in that particular player turn. As Laeroth points out here, this would obviously be grossly imbalanced if it related to game turn as players going 1st would have a significant disadvantage with fast transports compared to individuals going 2nd. GW isn’t that dumb. However, they have been dumb in the past so let’s take further information from the rulebook and refer back to the pg70 ruling quoted above and focus on a key word: ‘that.’

MotF List 3: Fast'n'Slow w/Dreads

Still not done with these lists! Especially considering my dilema currently with my 1750 Mech Marine list. So let's check out a Fast'N'Slow list using the MotF. Once again our opportunity cost is going to be based around losing the Libby as one HQ is going to be taken by the Captain on a bike to access Bikes as Troops. This means we have no psychic defense, no null zone (less of an issue here as there isn't much AP2 or good combat units) and no extra cool blast or template. We can live with that. The Fast'N'Slow list is based around the concept of throwing bikes into your opponent's face and supporting them with a bunch of mech firepower so this will essentially be a Mech list with the Tacticals replaced with the Bikes. The Bikes are better in comparison to Tacticals in every respect but are correspondingly more expensive. So let's see what we can build...

We'll start with the MotF and Captains on Bikes as they are both required for this list. The MotF could start on foot and start with a Scout squad and Beamer but for the moment we're going to run them both on Bikes. This sets us back 135 and 165 points respectively as we give the Captain a Relic Blade. Now let's take a look at the Dreads we want. Our force is quite aggressive with bikes zooming on T1 so we're going to need some combat support. We can do this with Dreads or Terminators if we wish... I'm going to lean towards Dreads atm as they can advance and help out the Bikes and then charge into combat. We'll therefore take two barebones Dreads w/MM and DCCW and the other four Dreads will be Rifledreads giving us an impressive amount of suppression fire. This will set us back a further 210 and 500 points respectively so we've used up just over 1000 already.

Email in: Biker list at 2000 points

"Hi Kirby

I’m a long time reader of 3++. I currently play raven-guard quiet fluffy with shrike and lots of scouts but I’ve had an itch for a while to do a biker army.

I’m staying with raven guard as I’ve already got 10 or so bikers and can’t afford to completely start from scratch. Also I’m looking forward to modelling a raven guard counts as Khan and his command squad I’m going to use the Forge world upgrade pack, command squad pack some extra storm shields from the Assault terminators and get the Ravenwing box set for the 6 bikes . I was hoping to get some feedback on a list before I sink cash into the models.

Here’s what I’ve got so far

Email in: Spearhead Battle, 1000 pt, 2v2

"Hi Kirby,

I've been reading your blog for quite a while and like the straightforward way you approach army lists and hope you can help me out. I haven't seen you comment on expansions, but was hoping you might give me some advice on a Spearhead tournamant a local gaming group is organising, seeing as all the rules are free. It will be a 2v2 with 1000 points for each player and the teams randomly allocated. I'm a C:SM player and have a bit of a quandry, do I go for a spearhead heavy list and gain the extra shot at cruising speed plus the spearhead specific bonus, or just try to get as many vehicles on the table at once?

The group I'm playing have a mix of armies although I know one Ork player is trying to get 18 Killa-Kans in his army.

My first list is a simple Spearhead Heavy list, 995.

Taak's Flamestorm Rush (1,750pts) Blood Angels

I was reading Kirby's Flamestorm armies at 1750pts  and decided to add a twist to it myself.

The original list can be seen here.

So here's something slightly different, brings more armour and more template fun to the party. Ditches the HKM's as you wanna get up close and personnal so aren't tempted to hang back launching random crack missiles at stuff; drops Sanguine Sword for Blood Lance as 2-3 str 10 attacks in combat on the libby ain't all that great in what is a in your face shooty force (and I'd prefer to run Sword with might of heroes and a second libby with sword and unleash rage in a more combat orientated army); dropped the Riflemen in place of Single Autocannon Predators to provide better armour cover for your entire force as you close in...besides having 6 AV 13 fast vehicles in the army for ramming purposes is a threat all of its' own...but still keeps 1 of 2 AC's (albeit not twin-linked) if you need to hang back a bit. It's a fast, in your face, shooty army. It requires a bit of finesses and proper abuse of blocking as you don't want to get in and lose your army to a timely counter attack from a bigger combat based force, but otherwise is an intriguing list. Shame the Furioso's are a bit slow, but when they get close those Frag Cannons are too funny. :D

Guest Article: Identifying Bad Units in Warhammer 40,000

Welcome all! An article from me (Zjoekov), for all you 40k lovers out there. First things first however, let’s introduce myself: I’m a 20 year old student who’s more interested in Warhammer 40,000 than his studies (that’s bad really). I’ve been playing Warhammer 40k for a good 3 years now but my dedication and enthusiasm makes up for any lacking experience…well that’s the idea anyway! Currently I own CSM, Eldar (hybrid and Mech) and pure Grey Knights armies. Yes indeed, two armies with 1 or 2 possible builds and one with no working build at all, for semi-competitive play at least.

Anyway, to the article. A while ago I started thinking about what makes certain units and lists effective and others not so or less. A lot of people give answer to this by referring to the metagame and according to some, when your list is good at dealing with the local/current metagame, it’s a good list. Sounds about right? Well it’s wrong. I can take good lists and perform well no matter what area I’m going to. Kirby already posted a good and comprehensive article on this here and spoke at length about balanced lists here.

So what am I going to write about when Kirby has essentially covered the metagame and balanced armies already? Well it’s in the word essentially; I feel he has not explained the theory behind balanced lists enough and I’m going to give my thoughts on why good/bad lists have to exist and why they can be made without knowing what your opponent is taking.

What makes some units better than others? Because they make better (or worse) use of rules over-arching the game compared to others. This is not a game without boundaries as we play this game within a prescribed set of rules. What works well and what doesn’t gets largely decided by the rules. We therefore have to understand the rules and understand them well.

Let me give an example of a bad unit. Thousand Sons. Why are they bad? Because they are over-costed. Now that’s not very helpful of course so let’s look at what makes them over-costed. It becomes clear when you look at what they have for special abilities (which is often where you pay your points).