tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post746041503043705853..comments2024-03-10T21:35:32.778+11:00Comments on 3++ is the new black. | Kirb your enthusiasm!: Marine codex 'review' (#1): special characters.Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07693773850422698445noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-83584937052261814732010-09-16T12:14:33.618+10:002010-09-16T12:14:33.618+10:00Mister Kantor is fail, and librarian plus a plasma...Mister Kantor is fail, and librarian plus a plasmaback is a much better investment.VT2https://www.blogger.com/profile/13922615677851541327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-67973807775048706192010-09-14T08:17:35.999+10:002010-09-14T08:17:35.999+10:00It takes 9 shots. 5/(5/9). It's not hard mat...It takes 9 shots. 5/(5/9). It's not hard math. <br /><br />That's a LOT less than 15 shots. It's friggin 6 extra las cannons. <br /><br />We agree it's the best case scenario. I'm just having trouble finding where else I can find 6 las cannons shots for 100 points. Call it situational. But it is GREAT in that situation.GreyICEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16068050095805271795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-17866554341174197862010-09-12T13:30:28.805+10:002010-09-12T13:30:28.805+10:00The +1 attack to the terminators? If you choose t...The +1 attack to the terminators? If you choose to fall back from a combat and don't fall back far enough, guess what? You're still falling back! You don't need to charge if every turn you have +1 attack from Pedro. <br /><br />SS in general are the best case for Null Zone. <br /><br />My math's not wrong, just dirty. If you are failing ~50% of the time with Null Zone in effect, then it takes 2 AP 2 wounds to kill you. If you don't have Null Zone in effect, it takes roughly 3 AP 2 wounds to kill you. Therefore, to kill 5 terminators without Null Zone you should need 15 AP2 wounds; and WITH Null Zone you should need 10 AP2 wounds. Obviously since its 55% failure rate and not straight 50%, the numbers aren't exact, but its a rough equivalent. <br /><br />Yes, you get gate as well, but that's not my point with all this, my point is that Null Zone is situational and even in its best situation isn't as exciting as is being advertised.flugerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00868852313679502604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-72420446663660690302010-09-11T14:16:08.437+10:002010-09-11T14:16:08.437+10:00Really? Pedro's abilities are a great buff fo...Really? Pedro's abilities are a great buff for Assault Terminators? Pray tell, why don't you want them to break if they can? They break out of combat, move, and then charge back into combat for an extra attack? Yes please? <br /><br />I'm not even going to argue with you on the stuff you're clearly wrong on (wolf guard/TWC with stormshields are the best case for Null Zone).<br /><br />P.S. Your math is bad. It's 2 extra wounds per 3, not 1 extra wound per 2. <br /><br />P.P.S. Seriously, you're not paying 100 points for Null Zone. Stop pretending you are. You're paying no Gate to Infinity. Deep Striking is that good, except when it's... not. And oh god, when it's not, it's really, really not.GreyICEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16068050095805271795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-55522103987742274252010-09-11T08:08:14.087+10:002010-09-11T08:08:14.087+10:005 TH/SS terminators should only need 30 wounds to ...5 TH/SS terminators should only need 30 wounds to kill with non-AP2 weapons. And, really, you only need to kill about 3 of them (18 wounds dealt) for them to lose any real threat value. <br /><br />Shooting TH/SS terminators with AP2 weaponry is a waste of time, and even with NullZone, you're only increasing your chance against them by ~23%.<br /><br />In other words, it takes ~3 AP2 wounds to get through and ~2 AP2 wounds with Null Zone to get through. For a unit of 5, that's a savings of 5 AP2 wounds before you kill the squad (not insignificant, admittedly), but you'd still need ~10 AP2 wounds WITH Nullzone to kill them. <br /><br />Whereas if you DON'T have Nullzone and you fire LOTS of Bolters and other, non-AP2, higher rate of fire weapons at them you could do just as well. <br /><br />And really, that's the IDEAL scenario for Null Zone. Most other units are going to be getting cover saves vs invuls. <br /><br />Pedro's abilities have little to do with this situation as his advantages pay out against different forces; but certainly if you had a unit of your own assault terminators all with more attacks, that would certainly be a good way of dealing with terminators... Like I said initially, its a nice buff for tacticals, and a GREAT buff for assault terminators and dreads and assault marines. Don't use tacticals to fight a death star...shoot it.flugerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00868852313679502604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-33279763492951418762010-09-11T07:51:54.428+10:002010-09-11T07:51:54.428+10:00*By chapter master with Iron Halo I mean any old u...*By chapter master with Iron Halo I mean any old unit that brings an Iron Halo, not any specific model. I realized that could be read incredibly wrong :pGreyICEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16068050095805271795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-63967436270854617192010-09-11T07:51:12.761+10:002010-09-11T07:51:12.761+10:00Nullzone is somewhat situational (I wouldn't g...Nullzone is somewhat situational (I wouldn't go as far as 'incredibly). That is not key. What is key are the following questions - how important is the situation, and how else do you handle it? <br /><br />The answer is that the situation is, when it occurs, INCREDIBLY important. Assault Terminators in your lines MESS SHIT UP. Chapter masters with Iron Halos are Bad News. Wolfwing exists, and brings Stormshieldy goodness.<br /><br />3++ NZ = 56% chance of taking a wound<br />4++ NZ = 75% chance of taking a wound<br />5++ NZ = 89% chance of taking a wound<br /><br />You can now effectively las ATs off the board. The Stormshields in Wolfwing are no longer bastions of power, but cardboard shields waiting to fail (especially since they frequently only have 3+ backing them up... missile launchers FTW). He effectively adds 2 shots for every 3 going in against invuls. 3 las cannon hits becoming 5, for 100 points? Sure. 3 missile hits on WG with Shields becoming 5? Yes please. I really can go on, it's infinitely useful when it's happening. <br /><br />If we're doing a direct comparison to Kantor, Kantor HURTS you in these situations. He means your squads are not going to do what they're supposed to (break when they lose half the squad to a deathstar). He means the squad will be sitting there in close combat for an extra turn. YOUR extra turn. YOU do not get to shoot the deathstar. Your marines sit there and melee the deathstar. Then they are the empire's finest shitsmears. <br /><br /><br /><br />What makes an army effective? It's not having every model in the squad have an answer for every situation. It's having the army itself answer every situation.<br /><br />Oh and seriously, having your damn marines sit around and melee the deathstar is goddamn fail. They have 1 melee attack, what are they going to do, poke it to death? Kantor sucks.GreyICEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16068050095805271795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-32153086647005748182010-09-11T07:00:21.583+10:002010-09-11T07:00:21.583+10:00That really isn't a large percentage of units ...That really isn't a large percentage of units in the game at all. And some of those have really paltry invul saves (5+ on Nobz, Harlequins, and most Daemons) that aren't really all that exciting to get rid of and odds are their going to have a cover save anyway which is better. <br /><br />Nullzone is incredibly situational as there are plenty of armies out there where very few models are going to have an invul save. I think you'd get better mileage out of Gate comboed with Voretx of Doom on a Reclusiarch with terminator armor in a unit of sternguard. Sure you run the risk of perils killing the whole squad, but that's a nice mobile shooting unit and a good way to deliver meltas and a S10 blast. Heck, with a stormshield he could probably travel on his own. <br /><br />Nullzone just doesn't seem as multi-purpose.flugerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00868852313679502604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-10719228112420720152010-09-11T06:37:28.374+10:002010-09-11T06:37:28.374+10:00Nobz.
Terminators.
Harlequins.
Farseers
Seer counc...Nobz.<br />Terminators.<br />Harlequins.<br />Farseers<br />Seer councils.<br />Almost all characters.<br />All demons.<br />Lots of chaos.<br />All sisters of battle with acts of faith.<br />Everybody with a stormshield.<br />I could go on.<br /><br />The list of hardcore threats without ++ is smaller. You don't want it to kill grunts - you want it so you can use a single sternguard squad to down a big nasty, rather than two.<br /><br />There is absolutely nothing situational about ninja magic that solves almost all of an army's problems.<br />An ability to makes powerfist sergeants 'more powerful,' however - well, let's just say that fists have been covered already, and are not offensive weapons, at all.VT2https://www.blogger.com/profile/13922615677851541327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-85876010975868177752010-09-11T03:19:46.586+10:002010-09-11T03:19:46.586+10:00Huh, I re-looked at NullZone, thought it was 12&qu...Huh, I re-looked at NullZone, thought it was 12" bubble, not 24". Still not that useful since there's not a ton of armies with loads of invul saves.flugerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00868852313679502604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-11240279086084013442010-09-11T03:15:15.251+10:002010-09-11T03:15:15.251+10:00Why? Nullzone is extraordinarily situational.
...Why? Nullzone is extraordinarily situational. <br /><br />You have to be close to use it as well, close enough to be assaulted, which I thought we were avoiding... <br /><br />Nullzone does nothing against 'Nids (other than swarmlord who's doing the same thing to you and Zoeys) or most Ork units as well as the vast majority of units on the table; and only gets super effective against Daemons, Eldar, or TH/SS terminators.flugerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00868852313679502604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-53130461018915200252010-09-10T23:00:48.994+10:002010-09-10T23:00:48.994+10:00Saying Pedro is better than nullzone is quite poss...Saying Pedro is better than nullzone is quite possibly the most wrong outside of warseer.VT2https://www.blogger.com/profile/13922615677851541327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-88243985006816001352010-09-10T09:58:21.385+10:002010-09-10T09:58:21.385+10:00Huh, well, again, pretty much every marine player ...Huh, well, again, pretty much every marine player I know runs Vulkan or Pedro, unless they are all-bike, then they run combat tactics (which works better with their inherent mobility and the 3d6 fall back). <br /><br />People were gaga about combat tactics around here (Seattle) initially, but we found that it wasn't as potent as it seemed. <br /><br />Also, in regards to dreads/MCs: most MCs now are T6 (outside of wraithlords, but they are awful and I never see them fielded by compotent generals), so regular marines have a chance against them (not to mention the powerfist), and most marine players I play against have powerfists on the sarge to deal with dreads. Stubborn + an extra powerfist attack is certainly nothing to sniff at in that situation... <br /><br />In terms of a base Libby vs Pedro, I'd rather have Pedro as I think he adds more to the list than a bare-bones librarian.flugerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00868852313679502604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-64663166961599962982010-09-10T09:47:24.728+10:002010-09-10T09:47:24.728+10:00"I'm not saying Stubborn > Combat Tact..."I'm not saying Stubborn > Combat Tactics, but they are at least just as useful, they just require a different play style to get the most use out of them." <br /><br />which isn't good for Space Marines. Attempting to make a medicore combat army better at combat is good, you're shoring up their weaknesses but at the expense of combat tactics? No thanks. Sure, +1A bubble and scoring Sternguard are nice additions but not Stubborn. Combat tactics is part of mobility. You know if a Dread/MC/etc doesn't die and is able to charge your Tacs you can get away. Those extra attacks don't help there, etc.<br /><br />Where the extra attacks do help, on combat units, there are much better options like Vulkan, Bike Captains/Khan or Libby in terms of HQ (oh and libby;s are 100 points. Epistolary's are meh and termie armor isn't exactly a requirement) because they provide much more for the army as a whole.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07693773850422698445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-42498417428658584062010-09-10T09:21:09.860+10:002010-09-10T09:21:09.860+10:00Space marines should be mobile enough that no one ...Space marines should be mobile enough that no one is FORCING them to accept combat (I seem to remember something about SM mobility in an Ork article...), and the synergy of making all units BETTER at combat within 12" means that if you CHOOSE to go into a combat, you're more capable of it, and then stubborn helps you if you flub the rolls. <br /><br />In addition, you can use small units that SHOULD hold with stubborn and then counter assault at need. <br /><br />I'm not saying Stubborn > Combat Tactics, but they are at least just as useful, they just require a different play style to get the most use out of them. <br /><br />And, ergo, since I think Stubborn is useful and even more useful when comboed with a bonus to attacks and then factor in the advantage of gaining scoring for Sternguard (moderately advantageous, but advantageous none-the-less), and his low cost at 175 points (only 25 more than an Epistolary, and identical to a terminator-armored Epistolary), Pedro is a good buy for an HQ. <br /><br />I strive for balanced armies, as most of the articles here purport as well, I think Pedro gives marines much more tactical flexibility by making them better at melee while taking nothing away from their shooting. Vulkan is certainly a great buy as well, but he ALSO takes away combat tactics, and all the weapons he buffs are close range weapons, which implies to me that you are getting within charge range of your enemies, so I'm not seeing how getting close with stubborn units that are better in combat is that much of a step backwards...flugerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00868852313679502604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-47919007809740525052010-09-10T08:22:07.885+10:002010-09-10T08:22:07.885+10:00If they don't shoot you before they charge you...If they don't shoot you before they charge you, your chances of surviving and winning any potential assaults increase.<br /><br />Having the ability to fall back with your shooting army is much, much better than not having it, and being forced to accept combat when you don't really do much good there.VT2https://www.blogger.com/profile/13922615677851541327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-90315995245987089192010-09-10T05:43:23.163+10:002010-09-10T05:43:23.163+10:00Again, chapter tactics is only situational about a...Again, chapter tactics is only situational about as much as stubborn is. If your opponent knows you have it, why would they shoot first before they assault? <br /><br />And, if you're trying to get out of unwinnable combats, odds are, you aren't going to fall back far enough that the unit you're locked up with won't be more than 6" away from you, and now you're just going to fall back again. <br /><br />I think chapter tactics is best used with all-bike armies as they at least fall back 3d6.flugerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00868852313679502604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-35090948870060938902010-09-09T16:13:46.322+10:002010-09-09T16:13:46.322+10:00Kantor like any non-bike Captain or generic Chapte...Kantor like any non-bike Captain or generic Chapter Master is just an average choice. He is not bad, there are just better options.<br /><br />His weakness is Stubborn not the melee aura. The arua is a useful defence if your game goes badly or you get some deep strikers in the face. Unlike Vulkan though you loose the bonus when he dies.Lyracianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13021663969271276571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-17987986175554359242010-09-09T10:35:50.026+10:002010-09-09T10:35:50.026+10:00Imagine I *don't* shoot the marines and then j...Imagine I *don't* shoot the marines and then just assault them. ;)<br /><br />Terminators have never been much of an issue for me, especially TH/SS versions. Command Squads are too small.flugerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00868852313679502604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-67351930070671202352010-09-09T09:29:55.052+10:002010-09-09T09:29:55.052+10:00Imagine if instead of taking your charges, the mar...Imagine if instead of taking your charges, the marines run away so they can shoot their meltaguns and bolters at you again.<br /><br />The whole problem with mister Kantor is, he's an expensive boss in a shooting army, that makes your shooty units better in combat.<br />You don't want that. You want him to make you shoot better. Even his gear tells us he's a shooty dude, what with his minigun stormbolter.<br /><br />Should you need to kill something, you send in a command squad or assault terminators. They kill things dead, with or without the bonus a 175 character gives them.VT2https://www.blogger.com/profile/13922615677851541327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-16018314783396377442010-09-09T08:42:08.588+10:002010-09-09T08:42:08.588+10:00Huh, I posted a response a while back, but its gon...Huh, I posted a response a while back, but its gone. <br /><br />Anyway...<br /><br />I agree, Marneus is not good, therefore the reading of the rule is unimportant. <br /><br />In regards to Pedro again, yes, GHs do other things well; but for only 45 points more than a librarian, you get a nice boost to your units within 12" Again, if you have Pedro in a Land Raider, you can move him to where his bonus is needed quite easily. Sure your tacticals don't become uber combat units, but they are at least helpful in a pinch. Sternguard also get much better as they go from 2 base attacks to 3 base and 4 on the charge is nothing to sniff at. Same with assault marines. Assault termies and Ironclads also get much better. <br /><br />In regards to combat tactics. Never been super-impressed with it on non bike units; so I think Stubborn is a good replacement. Then again, almost all the Marine lists up here run either Pedro or Vulkan, so I haven't seen it in action that much. <br /><br />-flugerflugerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00868852313679502604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-68806226998427986512010-09-09T07:49:03.525+10:002010-09-09T07:49:03.525+10:00Most of my Vanila Marine friends use Vulkan. Whil...Most of my Vanila Marine friends use Vulkan. While I agree he is the most competitive choice I prefer Khan on foot. I like to have him in a Land Raider with Grey Knights. Str 7 Halberds for the win!<br /><br />Otherwise I just go with Librarian or Biker Captain.Lyracianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13021663969271276571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-74111942882633010412010-09-09T07:35:52.314+10:002010-09-09T07:35:52.314+10:00I like my brain cells :P.I like my brain cells :P.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07693773850422698445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-24399714822779264812010-09-09T06:14:11.221+10:002010-09-09T06:14:11.221+10:00No, thanks. I vote 'it will never come up, bec...No, thanks. I vote 'it will never come up, because Calgar is so rarely picked.'VT2https://www.blogger.com/profile/13922615677851541327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-86847282437081141272010-09-09T02:34:37.444+10:002010-09-09T02:34:37.444+10:00There is/was a hugemongous thread about it on Wars...There is/was a hugemongous thread about it on Warseer.<br /><br />If you ever want to kill some brain cells.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05829915318528723649noreply@blogger.com