tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post7863256622211989265..comments2024-03-10T21:35:32.778+11:00Comments on 3++ is the new black. | Kirb your enthusiasm!: Eldar Analysis: Aspect Warriors, the good & badAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07693773850422698445noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-13520131686576905972010-07-07T18:11:50.067+10:002010-07-07T18:11:50.067+10:00Pffft doubt it.Pffft doubt it.Lukenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-66676212608288150142010-07-07T14:18:28.462+10:002010-07-07T14:18:28.462+10:00Doesn't everything?Doesn't everything?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07693773850422698445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-53898340443565027972010-07-07T11:50:21.010+10:002010-07-07T11:50:21.010+10:00lol np xD Blogger just hates you =Plol np xD Blogger just hates you =PLukenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-32230679672045191552010-07-07T09:41:03.956+10:002010-07-07T09:41:03.956+10:00Ok some comments were lost here it seems, sorry Lu...Ok some comments were lost here it seems, sorry Luke & Loz, no idea where they went >.<.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07693773850422698445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-33981116787010568972010-07-06T21:55:06.354+10:002010-07-06T21:55:06.354+10:00Thing is, at 1500 there are a lot of lists that si...Thing is, at 1500 there are a lot of lists that simply don't have enough to deal with well played Fire Dragons. Problem for the Eldar is twofold.<br /><br />1) Often these lists aren't well run themselves - so it becomes much less important what you use/how good you are if the list is good (Despite being opposite, both are true)<br /><br />2) They don't have much the Dragons can actually hurt - or at least, are worth hurting. Example, how many times have you seen tri-raider at 1500?<br /><br />Lorizael, I play in the UK too, so please realise this is no insult to you or your friends/opponents, but in my experience, most UK players simply don't care enough to actually Mech up and play 5e 'properly'. In large part, this is why the Nids, Wolves, BA and even IG have viable(ish) Foot/SemiFoot builds. At 1500, taking crap units is that much more punishing, yet players refuse to accept that List Writing is as much a skill as painting or sculpting is - being able to maximise what you can get into your army is neither simple nor dirty, as so many would have you believe.<br /><br />This kind of attitude leads to them failing to properly learn either rules, or the opponent's army, and so their target priority suffers, and they get peeved when you tell them simple things they should have known, like Wrecks being Difficult AND Dangerous, or that Skimmers get a 3+ Dodge to Ram attempts.<br /><br />These players eventually stagnate, peaking out at mediocre, and sliding back into 'poor' with relative ease, only saved by the next Edition temporarily, as the vast majority get reduced to 'accidentally cheating' level, unsure of new rules etc.<br /><br />If your Fire Dragons survive plenty against these players, with the lack of knowledge or foresight to shoot every weapon at them on turn one, or who lack the acumen to even FIELD enough weapons to down a single Wave Serpent...then I'm afraid it is nothing to be proud of. :(<br /><br />Don't get me wrong, I know only a handful of players who are at least as good as me - but, as a 'better' player, it is my job to try and improve the others to my level so we can all learn and get better - and for some reason there is a reluctance to do that in the psyche of a lot of them. These same people, who would happily use cheat codes in console games, have a moral issue with LEGITIMATELY 'gaming the system'. Makes me EMO.TheKing Elessarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04981821487098781957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-85259894057477834792010-07-06T17:18:53.653+10:002010-07-06T17:18:53.653+10:00Let's hear why you think aspects outside of Dr...Let's hear why you think aspects outside of Dragons & Avengers are worth taking then in relation to fighting a balanced list and looking specifically at the points raised in the post.<br /><br />Dragons can survive multiple turns (see one of the battle reports on this blog) but you generally have to expend a lot of effort doing so. As Luke mentioned, they are high prioirty targets and you shouldn't bank on them surviving multiple turns. Taking one dragon squadron and expecting it to take on multiple tanks is asking for your opponent to nullify your primary anti-tank and be at a significant advantage.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07693773850422698445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-72658196028908441892010-07-06T08:23:32.270+10:002010-07-06T08:23:32.270+10:00So you understand why stormies are useful when ban...So you understand why stormies are useful when banshees not so much??<br />Comparing dire avengers to stormies is different thou since they both score. But are both squishy when they get out of their tank, stormies just have 3 flame templates and dire avengers can either have blade storm or just be a super cheap unit for nothing but making a vehicle scoring.<br /><br />Dragons are much harder to keep alive because mech has an allergy to melta weapons. So dragons tend to be on the top of your opponents to-kill list. Your opponent will generally be alot less concerned with the potters and gardeners. lolLukenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-90550471081402905912010-07-06T08:13:03.214+10:002010-07-06T08:13:03.214+10:00That just sounds so wrong when it comes to the Eld...That just sounds so wrong when it comes to the Eldar!! We're a dying race, we can't go throwing away lives like that! ;)<br />I see what you're saying, I do like to have insurance though and having several units that can last and still be around at the end of the game is always good. Especially in multiple objective games where you really need to hold one more than your opponent!<br /><br />I agree that you can do plenty to keep a unit alive longer; hence why I disagree with Dragons being suicide units. Potters and gardeners just don't make good soldiers...Lorizaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-67801127252577390782010-07-06T07:32:21.305+10:002010-07-06T07:32:21.305+10:00In objective missions every single unit but your l...In objective missions every single unit but your last troop choice is a throw away unit. It doesn't matter how many of your units die as long as you hold one more objective than your opponent. Might seem cold hearted if you get attached to your squads but some days you have to just make sacrifices. KP are a different story thou. lol <br /><br />Thou if your stormies wipe out what you flamed and you position your serpent to block LoS and if the rest of your army is still a significant threat. Then there is less chance of your opponent trying to kill them.Lukenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-31705640857017222562010-07-05T23:45:45.318+10:002010-07-05T23:45:45.318+10:00@Luke; yeah I get what they can do. But they do se...@Luke; yeah I get what they can do. But they do seem too throw away for me. I like my units to survive! I do like the idea of 2 flamers + destructor for serious horde killing, but still, paper thin... Plus I just love Swordwind armies too much :)<br /><br />@Elessar: Yes I'm in the UK.Lorizaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-23423537363461364642010-07-05T22:43:15.768+10:002010-07-05T22:43:15.768+10:00Lorizael - I will visit this topic in more detail,...Lorizael - I will visit this topic in more detail, if I ever get the feedback from Kirbs I'm waiting for. :p (<3 Kirbs) - In his defence, I did send him 19 pages of thoughts on Eldar to review before I galvanise myself into returning to the document and doing the other sections.<br /><br />Still, I would like to know - are you in the UK? Playing 1500 implies this.TheKing Elessarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04981821487098781957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-11858094279796782582010-07-05T19:14:12.965+10:002010-07-05T19:14:12.965+10:00Eh I meant they offer something not over something...Eh I meant they offer something not over something. =xLukenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-2378371878829678272010-07-05T19:05:23.181+10:002010-07-05T19:05:23.181+10:00Stormies hide in a tank till they get out to flame...Stormies hide in a tank till they get out to flame something, but then they normally die, that is why you have dire avengers to take objectives. Stormies are worth it because they over something useful you can't really get else where, mobile flamers. They also score, don't have to compete for spots on the FoC and aren't that high on your opponents target priority list.<br /><br />Things like banshees aren't useful because they compete with spots for dragons and don't do anything that the rest of your army can't already do.Lukenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-10486925515772000682010-07-05T18:26:44.923+10:002010-07-05T18:26:44.923+10:00See I enjoy active discussion about army lists. I ...See I enjoy active discussion about army lists. I like to show people other points of view and am pleased when someone provides me with something different that I can take on board.<br />But when people are condescending; "Need I go on?"; "Thanks", it makes it harder for me to take people seriously.<br />Prove me wrong by all means, but don't treat me like an idiot. I'm an adult who has been doing this hobby for a long time.<br /><br />Anyway, looking at that marine list has got me to break out the SM codex and has given me ideas for what I will be doing for my next army...<br /><br />Still, I don't agree much with how you disregard many Eldar units. Some are definitely less optimal than others (Hawks... :s), but the majority still have a place in the army if used effectively in concert with other units; which is in fact the whole point of Eldar warfare.<br />It does interest me though how you approve of Storm Guardians, a unit which I wouldn't touch. Just not enough staying power!Lorizaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-1292071115849429102010-07-05T16:17:45.634+10:002010-07-05T16:17:45.634+10:00So you'd rather a list with massive numbers of...So you'd rather a list with massive numbers of troops but no killing ability? Both of those lists are very capable of winning in objective missions handily. About the only good army which has those issues are Tau because their Troops are meant to die leaving them with only one scoring option but Tau aim to table you anyway. Anyway those lists have 30 marines in Rhinos and 15 Avengers in 2 Serpents + HoloFalcon which aren't easy nuts to crack.<br /><br />Dreads/Speeders/etc have an AV. They use the vehicle damage chart. THis means they are hard to kill. Thanks.<br /><br />"power-gamer" or "spam" lists are generally balanced lists but most people don't understand them. Lists like nob bikers & chaos dual lash which are bitched about like no tomorrow and are considered cheesey, are imbalanced lists which lose to balanced lists 9 times out of 10.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07693773850422698445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-86277680209194033052010-07-05T13:19:01.002+10:002010-07-05T13:19:01.002+10:00An army that 'spams vehicles' won't la...An army that 'spams vehicles' won't lack proper troop choices for objectives. They might have less troops than other armies but they make up for that by their troops being harder to get too.Lukenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-80069247676666159622010-07-05T13:11:13.663+10:002010-07-05T13:11:13.663+10:00That SM or Eldar army is not unbalanced or lacking...That SM or Eldar army is not unbalanced or lacking at all. It's got flexibility in terms of weapons as well as mobility and redundancy.Chumbalayahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15543857960730597490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-30383022138798965092010-07-05T09:06:17.471+10:002010-07-05T09:06:17.471+10:00Land speeders, dreadnoughts and vypers aren't ...Land speeders, dreadnoughts and vypers aren't tanks though.<br />Armies that spam vehicles are usually very weak in other areas and very unbalanced. There will often be a lack of proper troop choices for objectives and such.<br />I do disagree whole heartedly on Dragons being a suicide unit. If supported correctly and used well they can become a serious thorn by hanging around in the enemy lines causing destruction.<br />3 squads of dragons just seems like overkill and quite boring to me. Where is the Eldar versatility and range of troops in spamming the same unit?<br /><br />I'll concede on what balanced armies should be. A balanced army should be able to take on all-comers with a majority of success. Though I still think certain spammed/power-gamed armies will always prove too much for a balanced army.Lorizaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-16876500584671960452010-07-03T11:04:53.619+10:002010-07-03T11:04:53.619+10:00A balanced army is an army which can take on the e...A balanced army is an army which can take on the extremes of any army whether it be Armor, Mech, Hordes, Bikes, MC or whatever. Take a look at the Mech Eldar list under the My Armies Tab. It is easily going to handle Horde armies and like all Eldar is relying on S6 for anti-tank but is backed up by 15 Dragons and BLs giving the list as much anti-mech as possible whilst remaining efficient.<br /><br />I would also twitch at any game where you got 4-6 tanks between your Falcons or Dragons. Your Falcons should be shake-locked by your opponent since they are have the most firepower in one place and once the Dragons hop out, you rarely see them again. Suicide melta they result in being. At 1500 you should have 30+ S6 from tanks and you've only got half of that (consider the Spiders to be S5 due to AP-).<br /><br />And @1500, 10 tanks is not rare. 3rhino/pred/dread/speeder is 1455 pts so shave a speeder and you've got a good 1500 SM list + HQ. 10 tanks. 6x Vyper, 2dragon/DA/prism + falcon = 1515 and 13 tanks. Need I go on?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07693773850422698445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-33999390009720699092010-07-03T08:53:40.038+10:002010-07-03T08:53:40.038+10:0010 Tanks in an army is fairly rare though! Includi...10 Tanks in an army is fairly rare though! Including enough anti-armour to handle that comfortably seems to me would imbalance the list as then it couldn't include enough of the other units needed to fight hordes or heavy infantry etc.<br /> And actually, looking at it I think I could deal with those 10 tanks. In 1500 they're likely to be rhinos or chimera-chassis. In which case it's not as if they're hard to destroy/incapacitate.<br /> I can assume that in a 6-turn game my dragons can take 2-3, the Falcons can each deal with 2-3. That leaves 1-4 for the spiders and serpents to take, which isn't beyond them at all. Hell my banshee Exarch has ripped apart a tank or 3 in her time!<br /><br /> To me a balanced army is able to take on other balanced armies, not armies which spam tanks/horde or whatever. A 10 tank army is often unfeasable. Not even sure it's possible for any army bar Guard to field that many tanks. A 10-tank army is unlikely to be balanced itself, so why should you expect to take it on with a balanced army?Lorizaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-54034534985063422152010-07-03T08:52:41.616+10:002010-07-03T08:52:41.616+10:0010 Tanks in an army is fairly rare though! Includi...10 Tanks in an army is fairly rare though! Including enough anti-armour to handle that comfortably seems to me would imbalance the list as then it couldn't include enough of the other units needed to fight hordes or heavy infantry etc.<br />And actually, looking at it I think I could deal with those 10 tanks. In 1500 they're likely to be rhinos or chimera-chassis. In which case it's not as if they're hard to destroy/incapacitate.<br />I can assume that in a 6-turn game my dragons can take 2-3, the Falcons can each deal with 2-3. That leaves 1-4 for the spiders and serpents to take, which isn't beyond them at all. Hell my banshee Exarch has ripped apart a tank or 3 in her time!<br /><br />To me a balanced army is able to take on other balanced armies, not armies which spam tanks/horde or whatever. A 10 tank army is often unfeasable. Not even sure it's possible for any army bar Guard to field that many tanks. A 10-tank army is unlikely to be balanced itself, so why should you expect to take it on with a balanced army?Lorizaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-72313080940752948292010-06-30T19:35:36.092+10:002010-06-30T19:35:36.092+10:00Here's your anti-tank:
4 S8
16 S6 (half TL'...Here's your anti-tank:<br />4 S8<br />16 S6 (half TL'd)<br />14 S6 AP -<br />6 meltaguns (one unit)<br /><br />@ 1500 I can field 10+ tanks easily which this list has no chance in hell handling and thus isn't balanced.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07693773850422698445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-65889162233502211802010-06-30T18:12:09.332+10:002010-06-30T18:12:09.332+10:00As an explanation; Autarch rides with one DA unit,...As an explanation; Autarch rides with one DA unit, Farseer with the other. Banshees and Dragons have a Falcon each.Lorizaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-72862956357812758032010-06-30T18:09:49.912+10:002010-06-30T18:09:49.912+10:00Ok. Here's my normal list that I take everywhe...Ok. Here's my normal list that I take everywhere. I keep it the same wherever I go and whoever I fight against. I would consider it balanced in that it has the ability to take on all armies with success. Because of the aspect choices and options you would consider this a bad army list yes?<br />HQ<br /><br />Autarch - 92<br />Mandiblasters, power weapon, Avenger shuriken catapult<br /><br />Farseer - 130<br />Spirit Stone, doom, fortune<br /><br />Elites<br /><br />Fire Dragons - 96<br />6 Fire Dragons<br /><br />Howling Banshees - 118<br />Exarch: Executioner<br />5 Howling Banshees<br /><br />Troops<br /><br />Dire Avengers - 162<br />Exarch: power sword & shimmer shield, bladestorm<br />9 Dire Avengers<br /><br />Wave Serpent - 125<br />Scatter lasers, spirit stone<br /><br />Dire Avengers - 152<br />Exarch: two shuriken catapults, bladestorm<br />9 Dire Avengers<br /><br />Wave Serpent - 125<br />Scatter lasers, spirit stone<br /><br />Fast Attack<br /><br />Warp Spiders - 149<br />Exarch: Twin death spinners<br />5 Warp Spiders<br /><br />Heavy Support<br /><br />Falcon - 175<br />Scatter laser, holo field, spirit stone<br /><br />Falcon - 175<br />Scatter laser, holo field, spirit stone<br /><br />Total - 1499Lorizaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-38812993749803719822010-06-30T08:28:59.078+10:002010-06-30T08:28:59.078+10:00What's good in 5th edition, no environment dep...What's good in 5th edition, no environment depending. I can take my lists anywhere and anytime (assuming no rule changes) and have a good chance of winning because they can deal with any threat. This is balance.<br /><br />So really competitiveness as Kennedy says is actual tactical ability and in this essence we are discussing pure theory (i.e. this works and this doesn't in the perfect world of everyone playing 5th edition) which is easily applicable to real life and is what I draw upon. <br /><br />I can make a whole post on this if you wish but I think that covers it.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07693773850422698445noreply@blogger.com