tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post8116183129496381494..comments2024-03-10T21:35:32.778+11:00Comments on 3++ is the new black. | Kirb your enthusiasm!: Warseer Battle Report: Mech SM v Hybrid Eldar w/Fuegan 1850Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07693773850422698445noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-78432463850691935292010-05-11T22:26:27.864+10:002010-05-11T22:26:27.864+10:00"Thud, while isolated cases of annecdotal evi..."Thud, while isolated cases of annecdotal evidence do not make a good argument, there isn't much else that can be said. How do you guys know what is good and what isn't in 40K? You probably didn't learn from a scientific textbook, you learned by playing the game and gaining experience, coupled with the stories and strategies presented to you on websites or in person. Based on your experiences, you drifted towards what you determined to be the most effective builds, which ultimately boils down to a whole bunch of annecdotes collected over a substantial period of time that indicated you should use what you use now, and what you will use in the future. Personally, I try not to base my understanding of the game on isolated incidents. I base it on every single incident I have come across since I started playing that I can remember."<br /><br />When it comes to 40k, the opposite of anecdotal evidence is simply the ability to read. <br /><br />It's like why I contend that mechanized Eldar armies are better than footslogging Eldar armies (and that your army is not particularly good): I know how to read. <br /><br />So what is it that I use my ability to read on then? Is it Stelek or Kirby telling me through their blogs what's good? No. It's the 40k main rules and the current codices. The current vehicle rules, the current mission rules and the current point cost tendency all support mechanized armies as the best choice. I'll just go ahead and assume you agree with me on this. Right? That IG mech, SM mech, Eldar mech etc are the top contenders for strongest army currently in 40k (Yes, I know cav SW and Nids can be pretty good as well, but let's keep it simple for now). <br /><br />Now, moving on to why I think your list is bad.<br /><br />First of all; you don't have a way to deal with these top contenders, especially if they are handled by competent players. And, as I've said before, unless we assume that you are facing good players with good lists, this discussion is worthless. <br /><br />Let's take IG mech as an example. Say 16 tanks in 1850. That's a fair number. On the first turn they will drop one of your Trygons and all three Zoanthropes. On turn two you do nothing but advance and then you'll start taking wounds on the Tervigon and the Tyrant, most likely lose a Gaunt unit as well. Then, on turn 3 your Trygon reaches combat and kills a Chimera. Wohoo! Let's say your Gaunts are close enough to assault the dudes inside. 3 dead Gaunts (because they'll be charging through cover) and in return you kill the squad. Now your Trygon dies, the Tervigon, so does your Gaunts, all of them, and your Tyrant. <br /><br />So, left are your Venomthropes, looking aimlessly about themselves, ready to be slaughtered next turn. I probably forgot some of your stuff, but you get the picture, right? You have nothing able to deal with the tanks, and the few things you do have will die either on the way forward or after having killed one tank. Not exactly a great result; the IG have 15 tanks left and you're wiped off the table.Thudnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-23433870012404725792010-05-11T22:04:02.287+10:002010-05-11T22:04:02.287+10:00There is another post about this to avoid big long...There is another post about this to avoid big long comments from me.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07693773850422698445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-59170695529960614212010-05-11T17:29:16.769+10:002010-05-11T17:29:16.769+10:00This argument is like trying to explain Austrian F...This argument is like trying to explain Austrian Free-Market Economics to an Obama/McCain supporter. I am seeing some standard fallacies and vauge responses to a degree I haven't seen since '08.<br /><br />Chumbalaya, instead of telling me my list is "terribad" and that a "solid mech list" would "roll through" me, how about you tell me exactly how you would respond to my list and tactics exactly as I have described them here (that means reading my posts, not what others are saying about my posts) with a "solid mech list" that was designed for standard tournament play (i.e. not a tailored list). That way I can try to understand where you are coming from so I can properly refute your arguments. Anything less devolves into petty insults.<br /><br />This argument ultimately boils down to me saying, "Yes I can!" and you saying, "No you can't!". I have posted a huge amount of information with plenty of detail, but I'm not getting any responses that have the same level of detail, not to mention that you guys have been misrepresenting my arguments (Kirby in particular) in nearly every post you make, so while it looks like you are making a decent argument on the surface, you aren't even talking about the same things I am. Again, that is a strawman argument and it is not acceptable in a debate like this.<br /><br />Thud, while isolated cases of annecdotal evidence do not make a good argument, there isn't much else that can be said. How do you guys know what is good and what isn't in 40K? You probably didn't learn from a scientific textbook, you learned by playing the game and gaining experience, coupled with the stories and strategies presented to you on websites or in person. Based on your experiences, you drifted towards what you determined to be the most effective builds, which ultimately boils down to a whole bunch of annecdotes collected over a substantial period of time that indicated you should use what you use now, and what you will use in the future. Personally, I try not to base my understanding of the game on isolated incidents. I base it on every single incident I have come across since I started playing that I can remember.<br /><br />Playing a game or two will not provide enough information to judge the quality of a list and its strategy, but don't you think the collective information of over 30 games against different opponents and armies and lists might have some shred of credibility to it? My sample size makes up for the annecdotal nature of the information I am relaying to you.<br /><br />If you'd like, I can tell you how my list has done against a wide variety of opponents. Off the top of my head, I've played against Orks, Necrons, Space Marines, Eldar, Tyranids, Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Daemons, Sisters of Battle, and Imperial Gaurd. Each battle presented its own unique challenges, but the same two strategies I have employed have remained relatively constant. The only army I ever had a lot of trouble against was Eldar with RoWar and Holo-Field Falcons, and this is where I am acknowledging the fact that that particular combination is my army's main weakness.<br /><br />Besides, what reason do I have to lie? Do I seem like the kind of person who lies about this sort of thing? I'm sure you must have had to deal with a lot of exageration and made up occurances from people on other forums, but this is one time where you can actually trust someone. False information is not a produtive contribution to a proper debate, and would only serve to injure my cause.<br /><br />I have presented my counter arguments, so now you need to counter my counter arguments with more than just repeating the same line over and over. If you don't get into specifics, you aren't contributing to the debate.GaleRazorwindnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-16070963378333779772010-05-11T09:51:00.549+10:002010-05-11T09:51:00.549+10:00It's nonstandard, but it's a word :) Use i...It's nonstandard, but it's a word :) Use it as much as you want, make full use of your voKirbularyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-73419993854855287732010-05-11T09:16:21.552+10:002010-05-11T09:16:21.552+10:00Shush Thud =D, it's such a fun word to write. ...Shush Thud =D, it's such a fun word to write. Anyways (not a word, too!) going to reply out on this because it needs a snowmobilin!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07693773850422698445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-61415433292433968972010-05-11T00:43:45.611+10:002010-05-11T00:43:45.611+10:00"You mention a Vulkan list. I crushed a Vulka..."You mention a Vulkan list. I crushed a Vulkan+MoF Dreadnaught list (I believe it had 3 Ironclads, 2 regular Dreads, and a TFC) with my Tyranid list."<br /><br />Anecdotal evidence. This is worthless. <br /><br />I once beat a triple GT winner with only 1k points to his 2k. Or did I? Either way it's irrelevant. <br /><br />"As long as I continue to win with it, I see little reason to make any changes to my list. If there comes a time when I no longer win, I will adapt and change my list."<br /><br />This would have been a good point, except it is not. To elaborate, I'm now building/playing a Sanguinary Guard list (Dante, Sanguinor, 2x Priests, 4x Sang Guard, 1x Assault squad). Of the 11 games I've played with it, I've tabled my opponents six times, tied twice, lost twice and won comfortably once. Does this mean that my list is awesome? No. Does it mean I'm a great player? Maybe, but as I know I'm more or less on par with the guys against which I have played with it, probably not. So, what does it mean? Either my opponents have not yet learned how to deal with it (likely), or they have mysteriously gotten worse at 40k during the last three months. <br /><br />Correlation != causality. <br /><br />And Kirby: "Irregardless" is not a word. Fewl! :pThudnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-39588664420809301292010-05-10T23:39:41.498+10:002010-05-10T23:39:41.498+10:00Ugh, terribad nid list FTL.
It has nothing to hur...Ugh, terribad nid list FTL.<br /><br />It has nothing to hurt amor beyond Zoanthropes (6 space marines in terms of durability) and assaulting with slow MCs. <br /><br />It will table crappy foot armies, but a solid mech force will roll right through it.Chumbalayahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15543857960730597490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-65795628620490260102010-05-10T18:46:11.427+10:002010-05-10T18:46:11.427+10:00Part 3:
3) You're too focused on synapse and ...Part 3:<br /><br />3) You're too focused on synapse and are paying out the wazoo for it.<br />I'm not focusing on synapse, it just happens that a good portion of my units have it. I take my Tervigon for the synapse and my Tyrant is there to provide some back up synapse (Hive Commander and Paroxysm are the main reasons I take him) if I decide to take his node elsewhere. My Zoanthropes are taken purely for their offensive capabilities, and if they happen to give synapse, thats great. I pay the 40 points for my Primes because I really like having the extra 6 shots and extra 6" range as it greatly increases their tank popping ability. Again, synapse is a bonus. I do have to say, I enjoy not having to worry about my Hormagaunts running away if they get ahead of my Tyrant/Tervigon, though.<br /><br />4) Combining with number 1, you have no in your face capabilities outside of the Trygons & DoM and since you can't slow opponents with your shooting...you get dictated<br />Are TS+AG Hormagaunts not "in your face" enough for you? They are for me. Your problem is that you are assuming I do not have enough firepower, but is wrecking three key targets really not slowing my opponent's shooting? You're underestimating just how devestating that is. I could end all of your Dakka-Preds or Dreads on turn 2, and then end the rest on turn 3, and that's just with my Zoanthropes and Trygons. You still have to deal with all of my Hormagaunts and my Tyrant and my Tervigon. My whole army is in your face by turn 2 and is destroying everything they touch.<br /><br />I'm going to say it again. Regardless of how you think a proper Tyranid army should work, I have found my niche with this list and I continue to get results from it. Ever since I started last year, I have tried to embody the Tyranid principles of adaptation. In every game, I am always watching to see what works and what doesn't and how to best react to any particular situation I encounter, and the knowledge I gained from this is what led to my current list. I have made almost no changes at all to my 1850 list since February (I have moved the last 10 points around to various areas for upgrades and other superficial changes) because it wins just about every time. As long as I continue to win with it, I see little reason to make any changes to my list. If there comes a time when I no longer win, I will adapt and change my list.<br /><br />One of the great parts about Warhammer 40K is that, with most armies, there is always more than one way to build a good army, and different people will migrate to the build that they get the best results with. Perhaps you can't do a good job with my list because you don't see what I see. I might have a hard time with a list you made because I don't see what you see. In the end, it doesn't really matter. While I enjoy the competitive side of things, I'm obeying the number 1 rule: Have fun! I have fun with my army, and I want to keep it that way.GaleRazorwindnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-76536413598651266992010-05-10T18:45:29.349+10:002010-05-10T18:45:29.349+10:00Part 2:
I'll try to counter your arguments:
1...Part 2:<br /><br />I'll try to counter your arguments:<br />1) lack of fire. full stop. You deal with a mech or mobile army how again?<br />This is a moot point because, regardless of any lack of apparent firepower, the ranged attacks my units provide is all I need because I'm in assault by turn 2. I don't need anymore firepower for my list to work like it is supposed to. I deal with a mech army in much the same way I deal with every army. In turn 1, I determine target priority, and in turn 2, I deploy my drop troops in their ideal positions to take out the biggest threats to my army, and guess what, they take those targets out. It softens up my food before I start to chew, and it works. Since they have Adrenal Glands, my Hormagaunts are capable of glancing vehicles to death, and have trapped their fair share of enemy units inside their transport. While you may not like how I do it, you can't argue with the results I get.<br /><br />2) Tervi in HQ w/no Termaguants. Tervigons are pretty decent buffers but not worth their points outside of Troops or w/o Termaguants around unless you're running a 5 Tervi list which is only viable at 2.5k + when you can get Fex broods working. Waste of points here<br />I like my Tervigon as an HQ. It is great for DoW missions as I can put down two Hormagaunt squads and the Tervigon and then get a further Gant squad into the mix. My Tervigon may not always be my MVP, but he does a great job of holding the line together and taking a little pressure off some of my other units. People still overestimate what a Tervigon can do, and I take advantage of that. At some point, I may have to exchange him for something else, but for now, he works just fine.GaleRazorwindnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-91885996826662354942010-05-10T18:43:33.274+10:002010-05-10T18:43:33.274+10:00*damn, just lost half of my post...*
Part 1:
You...*damn, just lost half of my post...*<br /><br />Part 1:<br /><br />You seem to be a big fan of strawman arguments. I never said anything about losing specific units, I said that after turn 4, if I didn't kill enough stuff, my units can get picked off. Usually, by the late game, 1 or 2 of my Hormagaunt squads are reduced to a few models, so they can become easy kill points. Please take the time to read what I am actually saying and stop using strawmen.GaleRazorwindnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-91764681193354624962010-05-10T15:51:24.482+10:002010-05-10T15:51:24.482+10:00Retarded has colloquial connotations as you well k...Retarded has colloquial connotations as you well know. It's not hard to say "I played someone with a disability." or "My opponent had downsyndrome." When you say something along the lines of "quite literally retarded", well you're going to get a slap in the face from anyone who works in the "caring" professions. Consider yourself slapped by the most non-humanistic of the lot.<br /><br />What powerful shooting? What destructive assaults on T2? Sorry but do you play with any sort of blocking ability in your area? Didn't think so. Just because you say you've beaten mech lists or whatever, doesn't mean your list is good. I can say I've beaten a 4000pt army with a 500pt army (oh and last time I checked, MC >>>>>>>>>>>> Dreads...hmm wonder why you were capable of beating that list w/2 Trygons & a Tyrant). I just showed how Ail-Shan's list fails against a balanced Mech list, it doesn't have the firepower to deal with it, irregardless of how he thinks it should be played. Let's see you versus a good list run by someone on this blog with your list. Not going to happen how you think it is because your opponent's can think and actually put a stop to your plans. Both you and Ail-Shan's battle plans and turn by turn analysis seem to run on the assumption your opponent fails to do anything in their turn. <br /><br />Rather than tell us of your exploits try countering some of the arguments put down about your or Ail's list compared to how your army should work. In ideal worlds that's great but we live in an evironment where your opponent is (unfortunately :() trying their best to stop you and when that opponent is half-way decent with a balanced list, they will stop your and Ail's lists. There are too many weaknesses to cover.<br /><br />Oh and any army should be able to lose any unit, at any time of the game. Not from T4 onwards. If it can't, then it's generally a lynchpin and either needs to be amazingly durable with a balanced army around it (i.e. TH/SS Termies or Swarmlord) or it's not a balanced army and will meet it's counter-army at some point in a tournament and lose.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07693773850422698445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-51007629726971540202010-05-10T14:40:45.629+10:002010-05-10T14:40:45.629+10:00So should we call fire retardant fire developmenta...So should we call fire retardant fire developmentally delayedant so we don't hurt its feelings? The fact of the matter is that mental retardation is an actual condition, and why should we kid ourselves with the notion that someone who is "developmentally delayed" is going to eventually have a normal level of intelligence. I'm Bipolar, and I don't go around telling people to call me "mood-ally challenged". In any case, I am not using the word retarded as an insult, I am using it as the proper term to describe someone of his mental capabilities.<br /><br />Back on topic, I think you misunderstood what I meant when I said my list peaks on turn 4. When I say it peaks on turn 4, I mean that after turn 4, my force can start to get worn down enough that if I didn't kill enough stuff in the earlier turns, my weakened units can get picked off. On turn 2, I cause I huge amount of destruction with my initial assaults and powerful shooting, and on turn 3, I cause even more damage as my Trygons begin their rampage. By the end of turn 3, my enemy is usually crippled, and the rest of the game is mop-up.<br /><br />You mention a Vulkan list. I crushed a Vulkan+MoF Dreadnaught list (I believe it had 3 Ironclads, 2 regular Dreads, and a TFC) with my Tyranid list.<br /><br />I deal with mech armies with fewer problems than you'd expect. A Trygon's 12 S5 shots at the rear armor of a tank is usually more than enough to wreck or incapacitate a vehicle, as are the 3 Warp Lances. After the initial round of shooting on turn 2, my Trygons can shred vehicles in CC.<br /><br />The only time I have ever run into trouble is against Eldar, as Holo-Fields are a bitch to get through, even for a Trygon.<br /><br />'Ard Boyz is coming up this Saturday and I'm using an extension of my current list, so that should be an excellent opportunity to see how viable the core of the list is, at least. My Tyranids came in 4/16 last year. I probably could have gotten 3rd place if I could have finished my 3rd game. We ran out of time because I had to move my 90+ models from the upstairs room to the downstairs room, and then I checkerboarded my 40 Termagants and 40 Hormagunts, and then my opponent checkerboarded about 50 Gaurdsmen. It would have been the difference between a minor victory and a massacre.<br /><br />I also bombed in the first round as I missed that my opponent's Rippers had Leaping, and they tarpitted my two Gant squads when I figured I had a full turn to obliterate them. 9AM is not exactly my most alert time of the day, after all.<br /><br />With any luck, a years worth of experience should hopefully get me into the top 3 this time.GaleRazorwindnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-19193723319460566232010-05-09T19:06:42.593+10:002010-05-09T19:06:42.593+10:00Implications are key on the internet ^^.
Reasons ...Implications are key on the internet ^^.<br /><br />Reasons your list is not potent:<br />1) lack of fire. full stop. You deal with a mech or mobile army how again?<br />2) Tervi in HQ w/no Termaguants. Tervigons are pretty decent buffers but not worth their points outside of Troops or w/o Termaguants around unless you're running a 5 Tervi list which is only viable at 2.5k + when you can get Fex broods working. Waste of points here<br />3) You're too focused on synapse and are paying out the wazoo for it.<br />4) Combining with number 1, you have no in your face capabilities outside of the Trygons & DoM and since you can't slow opponents with your shooting...you get dictated<br /><br />There's an idea behind the list. Drop the Primeness on Trygons, add in some Raveners, get rid of the Zoans/Venoms/DoM and add some HG and at least drop the Termaguant only upgrades on the Tervigon (I'd still move it to Troops x2 and only have 2 Horma squads) and you'd have a much more potent list (assuming points add up). As it stands your list will munch anything it gets into combat (most Tyranid armies do this by default) but anyone who can stay out of combat is fine and you have minimal ability to apply combat pressure with your list.<br /><br />Also, saying you are a great player and play 2-3 games a week is great, better than BoLS authors saying they invented mech guard or are unbeaten with Foot Eldar (though you lose out a bit by dropping in 4 loses only). Shame you don't play great lists which makes everyone here doubt you. Both the lists from you area we've seen are not potent and would be chomped by any sort of mech list. Any list that "peaks" late game (or like Ail-Shan's is more 'potent' late game) gives your opponent with a good list more time to rip you apart. Even Vulkan lists start operating in most missions and against most opponents at peak efficiency on T2/3. Proper Tyranid armies should be in your face on T1 or suppressing your armor from T1, not T4.<br /><br />And don't use the word retarded, if an individual has a disability try and be polite about it.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07693773850422698445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-90852318189786632072010-05-09T14:35:22.163+10:002010-05-09T14:35:22.163+10:00Post Part 2:
The main area that I can potentially...Post Part 2:<br /><br />The main area that I can potentially suffer from is that my assault tends to peak on turn 4, so if I don't finish my opponent off around then, my weakened forces can often be picked off and destroyed. Fortunately, this doesn't happen too often.<br /><br />In relation to Ail-Shan's list, RoWar makes my Zoanthropes retarded, the Doom has his big attack potentially silenced, my Tervigon can't cast Catalyst (FNP), and I can't support my Hormagaunts with Paroxysm from the Tyrant. Furthermore, it is very dangerous for my Tyrant and Tervigon to attempt to cast their powers as they don't have any invulnerable save.<br /><br />The Holo-Field Falcons aren't easy to crack either, especially since my Zoanthropes are shut down.<br /><br />On the subject of my comment, not only did I never say that any of you are average players, I specifically stated that your skill level is not the deciding factor in this case, only in my case, and then go on to explain that the difference in your case is in the way you think about how to use a list. You really shouldn't take what I say out of context.<br /><br />For the record, I say without guilt that I am a great player. The effort I put into not only learning how to play the game, but to memorizing the rules of the game, my armies, and even armies I don't play, along with memorizing countless statistics, over the past year was huge. I will again bring up the fact that I have only lost 4 games with the new Tyranids, having played about 2-3 games a week every week since the dex came out. There were two three-round tournaments in there, one of which I came in 2nd out of 16. I got screwed over in the other one when I got matched up with an opponent who was quite literally retarded to a slight degree, complete with drool dripping from mouth to floor, who I had to babysit the whole game as he kept making errors on basic rules as well as not telling me what he was doing. That sucked up all of my time to play, so I took an an entire turn of Gaurd shooting with no chance to retaliate.<br /><br />In both tournaments I won 2/3 games, and one of the losses was against Ail-Shan, which prompted the rematch that I mentioned in my first post.<br /><br />I was in a mini kill-team tourny today that I won, but two rounds wasn't exactly much of a competition.<br /><br />Anyway, I never assume anyone is worse than me, even after playing them multiple times, which gets me into a little trouble as it means I never hold back and never take anything less than my best lists, which has resulted in the crushing of several noobs, but believe me when I say that I don't consider being able to crush a noob as a good judge of my abilities. I say I'm a great player based on beating other good players.GaleRazorwindnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-19145308618944088272010-05-09T14:34:36.797+10:002010-05-09T14:34:36.797+10:00Post Part 1:
Hive Fleet Box Elder Bug
1850 Tourn...Post Part 1:<br /><br />Hive Fleet Box Elder Bug<br /> 1850 Tournament List<br /><br />HQ1: Hive Tyrant with Lash Whip/Bone Sword, Twin-Linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Hive Commander, Leech Essence, Paroxysm, and a Tyrant Guard (270 points)<br /><br />HQ2: Tervigon with Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Cluster Spines, and Catalyst (195 points)<br /><br />Elites1: The Doom of Minneso’Ta (Malan’Tai) in a Mycetic Spore (130 Points)<br /><br />Elites2: 3 Zoanthropes in a Mycetic Spore (220 points)<br /><br />Elites3: 3 Venomthropes (165 points)<br /><br />Troops 1: 13 Hormagaunts with Adrenal Glands and Toxin Sacs (130 points)<br /><br />Troops 2: 12 Hormagaunts with Adrenal Glands and Toxin Sacs (120 points)<br /><br />Troops 3: 12 Hormagaunts with Adrenal Glands and Toxin Sacs (120 points)<br /><br />Heavy Support1: Trygon Prime with Adrenal Glands (250 points)<br /><br />Heavy Support2: Trygon Prime with Adrenal Glands (250 points)<br /><br />Total: 1850 Points<br /><br />This army can be played either offensively or defensively depending on the opponent (against Orks in particular I use the defensive strategy), but its main mode of operation is an offensive 1-2 punch I describe as Hammer and Thongs. My Hormagaunts are the Thongs and my Trygons/Zoanthropes are the Hammer.<br /><br />The Tyrant is deployed with his Gaurd and one of the 12 man Hormagaunt broods, along with the Tervigon, the Venomthropes, and the other 12 man brood of Hormagaunts in a traditional Nid cover phalanx. The 13 man brood is generally outflanking, but in Spearhead missions I will occasionally put them in regular reserve if it looks like it would be better. Everything rushes forward in turn 1 for a turn 2 assault. It doesn't matter if it looks like I'm taking heavy casualties, because only half my army is on the board. The Hormagaunts, while excellent combat troops, are in small broods to increase coverage and manueverability, and all they have to do is tarpit an enemy squad for one turn.<br /><br />The Trygons, the Doom, and the Zoanthropes all Deep Strike. The Doom is brought in where I can get him near as many non-vehicle units (or occupied transports) as possible. I consider him to be a suicide troop and don't expect him to survive for more than a turn.<br /><br />The Zoanthropes go for the enemy's heavy armor and continue to wreck everything they can.<br /><br />My favorite spot for the Trygons to come in is 1" away from the rear armor of vehicles (they have scatter correction like a Drop Pod) so they can blast it with their Containment Spines. This can be used to destroy transports so the Hormagaunts can eat the contents, or to disable walkers, among other things.<br /><br />If all goes according to plan, the Hormagaunts will hold key targets in place to prevent them from firing at the Trygons while they wait to be able to assault. I don't really care if my Hormies die, as long as I am able to safely deliver my Hammer. On turn 3, the real pain starts as my Trygons begin to erase whats left of my enemy.GaleRazorwindnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-60597203201028983672010-05-07T10:31:10.846+10:002010-05-07T10:31:10.846+10:00Indeed. I always assume an unknown opponent will ...Indeed. I always assume an unknown opponent will AT LEAST be my equal.TheKing Elessarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04981821487098781957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-89639442865718736012010-05-06T23:20:29.041+10:002010-05-06T23:20:29.041+10:00I too am interested in seeing this 'amazingly ...I too am interested in seeing this 'amazingly potent' Nid list.<br /><br />"The message you should take out of this is that, given identical lists, not everyone will be able to use them to their full potential. While my balanced reserves Tyranid list has worked incredibly well for me, I would imagine that an average player wouldn't be able to use it properly as it requires an extremely precise execution with a lot of random rules to remember (Tyranids are one of the most unique special rule heavy armies out there) in order to be effective."<br /><br />The not-so-subtle way of saying you're a great player and insinuating that the rest of us who have to resort to using good lists are inferior players. Sorry, mate, but logic doesn't work that way. Especially as there's the miniscule chance that "we" (i.e., Kirby, GWvsJohn and I) actually play against good opponents with good lists. <br /><br />Furthermore, when discussing what's good and what's not in a non-contextual setting (i.e., the internet) it is worthless to make unfounded assumptions in one's own favour about player skill. Always assume the opponent is a great player with a great list. <br /><br />-ThudAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-59565424335529370062010-05-06T14:17:54.268+10:002010-05-06T14:17:54.268+10:00Silly post comment size! lol
@Gale; would love to...Silly post comment size! lol<br /><br />@Gale; would love to see this ‘potent’ Nid list. And CSM aren’t that great, themed in particular. We all want 3.5 back.<br /><br />Also, ignoring the not so veiled insults at my playing ability, trying to play a stand-off list is fine, don’t make a crap one nor try to claim inferior firepower is better to superior firepower. SM will easily shake most of his rides and stop his shooting because he doesn’t have saturation. Even when he gets his full firepower off he’s going to cause a max of 6 damage results due to 6 units but is only likely to roll 6 damage results on AV10. The SM army can shut down 4 AV12s, the Eldar army cannot shut down 4 AV10s, 3 AV13s, 3 AV11s and 3 AV12s.<br /><br />Here’s a ‘proper’ stand-off Eldar list using mostly what Ail uses that brings a lot of dakka to the table, can sac the Dragons on heavy tanks if needed but otherwise stays at 24-36” and giggles.<br /><br />Eldrad<br />3x 5 Dragons in Serpent w/TL-Shuricannons, Chin Shuricannon (2 w/stones)<br />2x SL/SC Vyper<br />5x DA in Serpent w/TL-BL, Chin Shuricannon<br />3x 5x DA<br />3x Falcon w/SC/SL/PL/HF/SS<br /><br />So let’s see, the 2nd list has 37 more S6 (9 TL), the same S8 but one is Lance, 9 more meltaguns, 5 more tank chassis’ and no Hawks. This list wins every time barring crappy rolls and would still be on an even playing field against Mech SM (see Game 3).Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07693773850422698445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-49683476234532407382010-05-06T14:17:39.595+10:002010-05-06T14:17:39.595+10:00Cover ignores 50% of shots fired at you. That’s 50...Cover ignores 50% of shots fired at you. That’s 50% of all damage rolls. It sure helped in game 2 and game 3 because I got to get some shots off. Shame the Eldar in your list still don’t have enough firepower to deal with the SM whilst in game 3 when they did it was a much more intense battle. <br /><br />What army doesn’t have enough firepower or mobility to deal with Orks? Orks suck. If you mean my Eldar or my SM…lol. Here eat a tank a game whilst I run around in circles. Oh you’re in Trukks? Wow your Trukk died and you have tiny squads. Bad example Orks. And ya in Game 2 I lost all my firepower/mobility to take down the dangerous units of the SM. What else was I to do? Throw a couple S6/8 at him? That doesn’t fare well when they can OUT SHOOT YOU.<br /><br />Now to your remarks about scouts/dakkas. They are anti-infantry. I’m happy when they get to shoot at infantry because they are more effective at doing those things. They have minor duality against tanks which is what makes them decent. You’re happy that x auto cannons aren’t shooting at you? Me too because they have better targets in the Guardians/Hawks and I still have enough firepower to shake you en masse. That’s what fire suppression is, stopping you from shooting. SM did it very effectively in Games 1 & 2.<br /><br /> If I didn’t charge forward in Game 1, yup the Falcon’s wouldn’t of died, their passengers would have been left in the sticks (I recall the original nightfight rolls for some of the spotlights was quite high; further the MotF would still of got the S10 Ap1 beamer shot) and you’d of done less damage to the SM as some of your best anti-tank was more in your backfield. The SM had more shooting than you the Eldar so they’d of been happy with you standing off which you simply don’t get.<br /><br />12 TL S7, 6 S7, 12 S5, 7 S8 AP1 at BS4 are better than 17 S6, 6 S8, 1 TL S8 at BS3 even when you TL 4 more S8 shots in pure anti-tank. Add in fire suppression and the Eldar simply cannot shoot back. Did you not see this throughout the games? Ignore the wrecked/explodes and how often were they firing? Barely because the SM had infinitely better target saturation and fire suppression. This doesn’t matter if you were close or far away and SMF helped stave off most of the suppression anyways. <br /><br />By forcing the Falcons forward, the better anti-tank was closer to position if they died and if they didn’t die, the better anti-tank was closer to position and you could bring all of your firepower to bear from your tanks (which you never seem to contemplate because you always move 12” w/your Falcons). Notice game 2 when this worked and Eldar still didn’t have any answer to the SM. It’s a risk but it’s better than sitting at range and hoping HF works for you.<br /><br />I’d love to play this list, too. It’d be boring as hell but so vindicating. Come to Australia (hehe internet challenges *giggles*) or let’s play on Vassal.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07693773850422698445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-4563917049230754892010-05-06T14:17:07.452+10:002010-05-06T14:17:07.452+10:00The scouts were already pushed off the objective b...The scouts were already pushed off the objective by Guardian deployment. Deploying anything but the scouts would ofplayed into Eldar hands. They did have enough firepower to drop one of the Tac Rhinos. As it was the move advantaged the SM in the end anyway. <br /><br />Guardians survived because they weren’t a threat and didn’t need to be shot until fire was able to be brought to bear (I.e. flamers or Dakka Preds). What did they do during any of the games? Pretty much nothing. 8 S6 BS3 shots for 200+ pts isn’t great. Deploying on the same side as the scouts would of given the SM range advantage (see Game 3). Pass on that. Scouts are a very minor threat compared to everything else and your list doesn’t have the capacity to deal with them and tanks and 30 marines.<br /><br />Hawks die. It’s that simple. 4+ save and needing intervening models for cover =/= survivable and for 200pts when they suck at anti-tank and anti-infantry? Why would you bother. For 210 pts I can take 3 Vypers who are much better at everything. There is no “need how to learn to use them.” You can’t make a sucky unit unsuck. How are they going to get a squadron of Speeders? Since apparently you don’t move your Falcons w/your anti-tank forward, the Hawks are alone cause I ain’t moving forward (see Game 2) because SM firepower > your Eldar firepower. Hawks die because they are alone. And 2 Dakka Preds shooting at them in cover will drop 9 on average w/o including Exarch save. gg<br /><br />Let’s get back to the firepower.<br /><br />Forgot the TL. So your whole army generates 2 more AV10 rolls than 3 of my units generate on AV12. You’re still claiming more firepower? What happens when Guide gets Hood’d? Or I take into account 7 MMs, 3 more AC and the MotF? I’m getting more damage rolls than you with the added bonus of AP1 against your AV12 (this is Eldar’s strength, AV12. Look at game3). Start trying to shake my Preds/Dreads/Tacs and your chances go down. You also have 4 tanks, I have 13. You see where I’m going here? You shake or even kill my speeders and I still have enough firepower to shut down all of your tanks. Your fire suppresion is bad and you’re claiming it’s better than the SM.<br /><br />Back to the Falcons and their movement.<br /><br />We’ve established the Eldar firepower in Games 1 & 2 is bad. Stop trying to get around it, it is. You want to sit at range and shoot me. Go for it, SM will chew you a new one. They are more reliable due to weight of fire and more twin-linking and have more targets than you can handle. The Falcons hold cargo that can damage tanks significantly. Two of those units are also expensive. You want me to leave them at the back where they get out shot? That’s fail tactics and fail list building. Your Falcons don’t support your passengers, they have terribly mixed roles. Falcons excel at 24-36” (though yours is less effective and only at 24”…hey that 10 pts seems useful now). Their passengers excel < 12”. Problem.<br /><br />To the Typhoon reference; then stop using them like Typhoons. Get more firepower on them and stop moving them so they can’t shoot all of their guns. They aren’t a Land raider either like in 4th, they are a gunboat which you do not use them as w/2 S8 shots and close range passengers. Again and again you will get out shot by your opponent if you do. Your Falcons are not flexible because of their passengers. You want to be out shot by your opponent, be my guest. Want to be out shot by your opponent and have another 600+ points stuck inside them? And then complain about paying 20 pts for an extra 4 S6 shots and an extra 12” range of 4 of them? *error noise* A properly built falcon has anti-infantry and anti-tank options at a reliable rate. Your Falcon has neither. Let’s chuck in 60 more pts to make mine scoring.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07693773850422698445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-75591058015527403282010-05-06T14:16:33.313+10:002010-05-06T14:16:33.313+10:00What's this amazingly potent 'Nid list you...What's this amazingly potent 'Nid list you run?<br /><br />My guess is that Ail has the same problem most warseers do. When you never seen an actual, good 5e list, the best of the crap seems awesome.<br /><br />I will obviously agree that tabletop skill plays a big part, but a bad list only goes so far.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-33759777665756753892010-05-06T13:27:16.350+10:002010-05-06T13:27:16.350+10:00For what it's worth, I'm one of Ail-Shan&#...For what it's worth, I'm one of Ail-Shan's regular opponents. We have played quite a few games where he was using the list being discussed and the best I can ever seem to pull off against him is a draw. I have an amazingly potent Tyranid list and playstyle that has only lost 4 times since the new codex came out, which includes both casual games and tournament play, and I believe 1 or 2 of those losses were against Ail-Shan.<br /><br />It is worth mentioning that my normal list has 4 units with important psychic powers that get heavily shut down by RoWar, so I feel that I am always playing him at a severe disadvantage, but I can't beat him with my CSM, either (Khorne themed).<br /><br />I can attest to how Ail-Shan describes how his army is played. He always hangs back in the first turn or two and doesn't really start to wreak havok until the late game. I had a game against him with my Tyranids and I was demolishing him until the last turn or so, where he managed to pick off a bunch of my weakened units. I was ahead by several KPs, but he pulled off (at least) a draw (it was basically a rematch of a tournament game that I lost to him).<br /><br />The message you should take out of this is that, given identical lists, not everyone will be able to use them to their full potential. While my balanced reserves Tyranid list has worked incredibly well for me, I would imagine that an average player wouldn't be able to use it properly as it requires an extremely precise execution with a lot of random rules to remember (Tyranids are one of the most unique special rule heavy armies out there) in order to be effective. That's not to say you are an average player, it is just happens to be a major factor for my particular list. In your case, it's likely just a difference in the way you think about how to use a list.GaleRazorwindnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-30433375169658229282010-05-06T11:42:58.589+10:002010-05-06T11:42:58.589+10:00part 2: (sorry I felt I should cover everything)
...part 2: (sorry I felt I should cover everything)<br /><br />My falcons are designed to support their passengers, not act as a lone vehicle killing machine. Even so other than on guardians I have no way of justifying paying 10 more points for a scatter laser above a shuriken cannon.<br /><br />Correct, 2 S8 shots doesn't scare many armies. It's not supposed to. But it's sufficient. Typhoons are only 90 points, but last I recall they die nearly as easily as vypers, and don't have a transport capacity. And in any case I can't buy typhoons.<br /><br />My whole game plan revolves around being flexible, which is why the falcons are not built as gun boats. If I want them to move fast I'm not wasting points on extra guns. If I want them to sit back and shoot they can do so relatively effectively. In addition if one of the 2 falcons not carrying Eldrad gets shot down the one squad can still join the other.<br /><br />SMF cover isn't reliable, even with fortune something still gets through and you still get hurt for it. That's why I like to take advantage of my range while I can, using speed to get good firing positions.<br /><br />I already pointed out the flaw of the rifle dreads being as effective as my shooting. Scouts have snipers, not reliable. The MotF can be a problem though true, but that's still 1 shot which if I'm close to him wont do a thing.<br /><br />Game 2 you lost all your firepower/mobility in exchange for the dreads and speeders, so it's pretty easy to see why that didn't matter as much. And enough fire suppression for what? Killing vehicles? With good target priority and movement that hasn't been a problem yet. There's only 1 horde ork player, my store owner, and I've only played against that army once, resulting in a near draw. Honestly you don't look like you have enough shots for such an army, and you can't maneuver around it.<br /><br />And again the 2 dakkapreds against the hawks. If the birds manage to bag a squadron of speeders I'd be pretty happy with that especially since that's 4 fewer auto cannon shots at my tanks. And if I happen to have cover it'll be lucky on your side if you kill all 7.<br /><br />Also notice that in game 1 the reason you lost 2 falcons was because you charged forward. Had you not done so you wouldn't have been seen through night fight, and you wouldn't have been killed by immobilized results. Game 2 again you charged forward without softening up your target. This is not a mech eldar army, so please do not play it like one.<br /><br />I still feel that you played the list completely wrong, and I would love it if I were able to do a game against you.Ail-Shanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08019254825771861884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-22529231652381180092010-05-06T11:42:27.913+10:002010-05-06T11:42:27.913+10:00@Kirby's post
Yes as it was he was, illegally,...@Kirby's post<br />Yes as it was he was, illegally, pushed off the objective. Forcing his scouts or anything ANYONE would want to deploy back to the 6" line can be useful.<br /><br />And yes the guardians did survive the longest because your opponent was content enough to shoot at the falcons which you donated to his guns. You yourself pointed out the apparent vast superiority of serpents at close range (which isn't really vast at all) yet still thought it wise to charge 3 expensively filled falcons into your opponent, head on nonetheless? And is there any reason you didn't deploy your entire force on the same side as the scouts? Not only would they block your opponents' movement or have to move themselves but they have no cc ability what so ever, though you apparently thought letting a shooty squad stay shooting would be helpful?<br /><br />Hawks on foot die if you've never used them. Every game I played with them for the first two months they accomplished nearly nothing. But they kept getting better and now tend to accomplish quite a lot, either damaging vehicles or taking down low save models such as genestealers.<br /><br />Also how many guns as a whole did you put into the speeders. You lost 2 falcons on his first turn do to horrid positioning (though luck with that MotF and your failure of cover saves as well). You had virtually nothing to shoot at them with, and all the while you had to deal with the dreads, preds and tacs all in the same place. You have mobility beyond charging blindly towards your opponent's table edge, so use it!<br /><br />Cover also is a 4+, not reliably if your opponent will be shaking you anyway. However my falcons are very likely to survive those damage rolls, something a speeder or serpent is not, especially when concentrated on. <br /><br />And 7 S8 (assuming 5 TL shots from guide and the serpent) along with 8 S6 should reliably down 2 speeders without cover (that's if everything goes the opponent's way). Compared with your 4 rifle dreads averaging HALF of an immobilized or wrecked falcon. I'd say odds are in my favor of removing your fast guns. So yes I'm pretty sure I can outshoot you from range. scatter lasers should get 2 rolls on the damage table, the S8 guns getting about 3.5, so I get 5-6 compared to your 3-4. Check your math.Ail-Shanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08019254825771861884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-600589111118264680.post-73767424793788929852010-05-06T11:16:41.233+10:002010-05-06T11:16:41.233+10:00Sorry Kirbs. I read the first game, and couldn...Sorry Kirbs. I read the first game, and couldn't stomach the second. I nearly vomited on my own face at the sight of that horrible list again.<br /><br />PROTIP: Don't play idiots, and think that makes you better than everyone who tells you you're obviously shit.TheKing Elessarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04981821487098781957noreply@blogger.com