Got a couple of emails to get through then on to the next Ork article (and some NBA talk :P).
From MagicJuggler...
Man, Chaos has too many issues. Lack of anti-mech, Oblits only being able to threaten one unit at a time/being fragile, Plague Marines being costly while lacking ranged firepower. Etc, etc.
So I'm trying to build a list that isn't too much of a pushover. Thoughts?
HQ:
Lash Sorcerer
Lash Sorcerer
Total points: 250
Elites
3 Terminators: 2 have Combi-Meltas, one has a Reaper Autocannon
-Land Raider with Havoc Launcher
3 Terminators: 2 have Combi-Meltas, one has a Reaper Autocannon
-Land Raider with Havoc Launcher
Total points: 720
Troops:
5 Noise Marines: One has a Blast Master
-Rhino with Havoc Launcher and Daemonic Possession
5 Noise Marines: One has a Blast Master
-Rhino with Havoc Launcher and Daemonic Possession
5 Noise Marines: One has a Blast Master
-Rhino with Havoc Launcher
Total points: 610
Heavy Support:
Vindicator with Havoc Launcher
Vindicator with Havoc Launcher
Vindicator with Havoc Launcher
Total points: 420
For 2500 points, add another identical Terminator unit, and another Havoc/Noise Marine Rhino without Possession. Likewise, take away one of each for 1500.
Setup: Everything is mounted! The Lash Sorcerers go with the Noise Marines in Possessed Rhinos. For defensive games, the Land Raiders stay in front to provide cover to everything else. For offensive games, they serve as a pillbox and the Vindicators train. The Terminators are basically autocannons/sacrificial melta to deal with Land Raider/Battlewagon Rushes. The Havocs are on the Vindicators as a backup weapon in case of Weapon Destroyed, and to provide some longer ranged shooting if nothing good is in range. The Lash Sorcerers are in the Possessed Rhinos of course.
Concerns: Alphastrike lists, mechdar, mech guard, any Tau, etc.
Thoughts?
Honestly, not liking. Vindicators and LRs don't mix well, even if the LRs are being used as fire support rather than bumrushing & dropping something off. I've always liked Rhinos w/Havoc Launchers and think a decent list can be made out of spamming those flamers and meltas but you essentially become a 12" army. With this army you're going to have problems with mech. S10 ord is great but hits ~40% of the time on a Rhino sized chasis. Otherwise a couple blastmasters, 4 TL LCs and that's about it in the ranged department.
With this list I think you can roll over hordes and you're snug up in your Rhinos/Raiders for mech defense but against a balanced IG/Tau/SM/Tyranid list I can't see this working. If you want to stick with the havoc launcher idea though I'll see if I can work something out.
Opinions anyone else? Anything salvagable here? Maybe drop the Raiders for more Termicide units (ick) and see what other anti-tank we can plop in? The main problem with CSM for me is lack of fast MM or even fast melta. Bikes/Raptors can kinda do it but nothing like SM bikes or Speeders.
Kirb your enthusiasm!
"...generalship should be informing list building." - Sir Biscuit
Thursday, March 11, 2010
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6 pinkments:
I'm with Kirby here man. I'm pretty sure my 1750pt Tau army could table this fairly easily. Not liking at all.
The Core is waaay too small and fragile. Now I love Noise Marines as much as the next man but they're really far too expensive for a competitive list (especially with blast masters). You want either plague marines or larger units of normal chaos marines.
Drop a vindicator too. They're good, but you don't need 3. Maybe grab a pair of oblits for your third HS choice? Two are often better than three since they attract less firepower and have a smaller footprint. They bring multimeltas and lascannons to the table. This is good.
I'd drop one of the terminator units to make the other 5-strong and have points spare for more core marines. The main problem I'm seeing here is that the army is damn tiny. More CSM squads with melta would give you a bit more target saturation and would supply some half-decent antitank. Can they take melta? I don't play against CSM nearly enough. If so, take it in spades.
Regular CSM can take melta. My main concern is this is would be a *very* short threat range to work with, meaning they lose in a duel with mobile Multi-meltas, or Tau again. Yes you can zip forward...but then the Markerlights strip your save anyway and you die. Or the Piranhas block you, and you die.
Come to think of it, I can easily turn a Vindicator into a 2-oblit unit.
As for the Terminators...you need 3 for every Heavy Weapon/Reaper. And I took them mainly for the Land Raiders. What would I replace a Land Raider with then?
More melta CSM? 10 3+ models in a rhino scare me more than 3 2+ in a 'raider. They can claim objectives and actually take more dedicated firepower to remove. You shouldn't worry about markerlights stripping away saves. I take 8 pathfinders and I'm on the markerlight-heavy side of things. Unless it's bearing down on an objective, the pathfinders have more important targets than a rhino filled with CSM. If there's 4 of them then there's no way that I can strip the coversaves from all of them before they've gotten to where they need to be and as mentioned, the MLs will probably be trying to bring down bigger targets like the 'raider anyway.
And the small threat radius of CSM doesn't matter. They're MeQ troops. Their job is to sit on objectives and stubbornly refuse to move regardless of what gets throw at them. The meltas are a deterrent to stop enemy vehicles from getting close. In KP games they can serve as area denial ("I have meltas here, you will not drive here") and are a damn tough KP for the enemy to claim.
Also, oftentimes the mere threat of melta is enough to force the enemy to change their battleplans. If they know the rhino has melta they'll either concentrate fire on it or spend their time trying to avoid it with their vehicles. Both of these reactions can be used to your advantage. As opposed to the 'lolwut' reaction noise marines evoke.
Right now you have 15 MeQ bodies total for claiming objectives. That simply isn't enough. This is why I recommend 10-strong CSM squads.
My honest advice if you're worried about Tau? Don't take land raiders. At all. Multiple rhinos are far more threatening than a single raider since I have to split fire to deal with them. Small arms fire bounces off (Ooooh I can glance on a 6 with the best basic infantry weapon in the game). They can be a nuisance even after dropping off their cargo (blocking LoS, tank shocking, generally being annoying) and since there's more of them they can do it better than a raider can. tl; dr version: Against Tau 'raiders=point sink.
This is all from someone who doesn't play CSM mind. The stuff about rhinos vs. 'raiders comes from playing against SM and is very, very true in my experience. The rest is mostly theoryhammer on my part. If I'm talking out my arse, feel free to ignore me.
Yep, that is theoryhammer. What competitive Tau list takes Firewarriors except as scoring upgrades for Pathfinderfish anyways? Besides, you'll be spamming Missile Pods, or using Railguns on Rhinos while using Piranhas to delay/threaten the Land Raiders. (I am a Tau player too :P)
I probably should mention that I am not actually putting the Terminators *in* the Land Raider. Instead, their goal is to lurk outside said Land Raider, and serve as a mobile Autocannon team (And yeah, I know Marine Rifle Dreads are *better*; shame we're not loyalists), while benefitting from cover. Here's the thing about Chaos Land Raiders that alters things a lot: Loyalist versions are better. The Chaos Land Raider gets a *slight* points discount, but in exchange, you're *ONLY* allowed to use the Dual Lascannon pattern, and you do *NOT* get Power of the Machine Spirit (meaning that you cannot split fire/move 6" and still fire both Lascannons). So I don't *want* to use it as melee bum-rusher. Additionally, Thunder-hammer/Storm Shield Terminators are generally a better melee unit than any Chaos Terminator unit.
I altered the list somewhat, to take Kirby's suggestions into account:
HQ:
Lash Sorcerer
Lash Sorcerer
Total points: 250
Elites
3 Terminators: One has a Reaper Autocannon
-Land Raider with Havoc Launcher
3 Terminators: One has a Reaper Autocannon
-Land Raider with Havoc Launcher
Total points: 700
Troops:
5 Noise Marines: One has a Blast Master
-Rhino with Havoc Launcher and Daemonic Possession
5 Noise Marines: One has a Blast Master
-Rhino with Havoc Launcher and Daemonic Possession
5 Noise Marines: One has a Blast Master
-Rhino with Havoc Launcher
Total points: 610
Heavy Support:
Vindicator with Havoc Launcher and Dirge Caster
Vindicator with Havoc Launcher and Dirge Caster
2 Obliterators
Total points: 440
PS: On another note, the advice here is much better than in 40konline, where they say "you have too many tanks, use mass combiflamers for anti-horde". :P
You two keep at it, I don't have to say anything :P.
I'd simply drop the vindi & LR idea, it's not a good idea when the opponent eventually gets in your face. I'd also just not take LRs for Chaos. As you aptly pointed out SM ones are so much better and you don't get the options of the shiny "newer" models. Maybe drop the LRs/Termies and go for some more meaty Troops as Poly suggested. Hell go pgun/AC CSM in Rhino for lols. 3-4 S7 shots from a Rhinos! And then maybe some melta chosen. Expensive but 2x mguns but what can you do. That way you could keep the vindis and you aren't sinking points into bad LRs + you're getting more saturation/melta.
"What competitive Tau list takes Firewarriors except as scoring upgrades for Pathfinderfish anyways? Besides, you'll be spamming Missile Pods, or using Railguns on Rhinos while using Piranhas to delay/threaten the Land Raiders. (I am a Tau player too :P)"
I don't use many unless it's a more laidback game. I was just using pulse rifles as a measure for 'small arms'. :p It's the former of those options I use to deal with massed transports btw although even with 6 deathrains it can be hard to deal with massed rhinos.
Back onto the list though, I'm seriously not getting the termi teams. So you're using them as a slowly advancing BS4 (TL?) autocannon. It's a single deathrain suit with a TA and a hell of a lot of toughness.
So there's the other reason for the termis: picking up the LRs as dedicated transports. But the thing is, chaos land raiders suck. They're almost exactly the same as the old SMLR and noone ever took that. Hell, noone takes the godhammer even with the upgraded PotMS. It's a bad tank purchased with a bad unit. It's investing a third of your army in four models. You must also remember that the 'raider is ostensibly a transport and by not using it as one, you're wasting a large portion of its capability.
Now if you're absolutely set on them for other reasons (models, fluff etc.) then by all means do take them but understand they're not the most efficient choice. I'm being a bit scatterbrained here so I'll try sum up
*Over 1/3 of the army is wrapped up in 4 models.
*These models have a minimal firepower output; **4 TL lascannons, 2 TL autocannons, havoc launchers, storm bolters (?). Now that's a lot of firepower just looking at it there, but it's not a lot of firepower for the 700pt investment.
*These models are slow. You've explicitly stated that you're running the termis on foot. In order to best keep them in cover behind the raider and use its lascannons you'll need to move at combat speed.
Now what you do have;
* Toughness. The small number of models is somewhat counteracted by their extremely high toughness.
* Range. Autocannons and lascannons have a very far reach. Their slow speed is mostly negated by this.
To to use your advantages and negate your disadvantages, the best idea is to sit these guys in your deployment zone with two termis behind each raider and the autocannon termi sticking his head out. A tough, static firebase.
It just seems like a waste. "Here's my extremely tough transport and infantry unit. They are designed to get up close and smash face. Fear their range!"
Just like I could use kroot for shooting you can use your combo. It works, it's just an inefficient use of points. The transports aren't transporting and the power fists aren't swinging. Eh. I run out of words here. If this is a bunch of inarticulate mess, blame my hangover. Never smoke something a strange Australian man in the pub gives you. Or always smoke it. Either way, my head hurts and everything is slightly blue.
...
I'm going to digress here and ask why you took the noise marines. I wish I could find use for them, but I can't. I'm a slaanesh player and whenever I see their rules I die a little inside. If you've actually found a good way of using them it'll make my goddam day.
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