Kirb your enthusiasm!


"Pink isn't a color. It's a lifestyle." - Chumbalaya
"...generalship should be informing list building." - Sir Biscuit
"I buy models with my excess money" - Valkyrie whilst a waitress leans over him

Wednesday, June 30, 2010

Email in: Ummmm I don't know what to put for a subject =[ lol [Blood Angels]

"Hey Kirby

Love the blog, I must say it has changed my opinions on a lot of 40k things, like that dark elder actually don't suck. My first 40k models I ever had was the 3ed starter set and trying to kill 10 tac marines and a land speeder with 20 dark elder warriors on foot with nothing but splinter rifles and splinter cannons kind of put me off them for like ever.

But what really caught my attention was your pure jumper army and I'm thinking of running one as my first 5th ed army(haven't played since end of 3rd/start of 4th). Now I won't be getting the codex until like next week so I haven't decided on an exact list just yet, but I doubt it will look that different to other pure jumper lists.

Thou I do have several questions I wanted to ask about running a pure jump army.

First up and probably the least important, think anyone will mind if i use death company models with jump packs as my vanguard vets? I'll be running my own blood angels successor chapter so they won't be painted like death company.

Second in lower point games would using 2/3 squads of 5 VV with just bolt pistol and combat weapons work better than 1/2 tooled up squads with storm shields and stuff??

My reasoning for taking more squads without toys is

It gives you more bodies(expensive bodies compared to assault marines but bodies are bodies).

You can tie up more of your opponents army, but the VV no longer have the staying power to tie up super units.

Even with decent of angels your whole army doesn't land on turn 2 does it? it's just normal deep striking 4+ and then DoA grants you a reroll. So on average you have 75% on your army dropping on turn 2? I don't have the codex yet so I could be completely wrong about this part. xD

So more units means less chance of all your vets deciding to have a coffee break and not jumping with the bulk of your army. Since the vets are way more important on the first drop than later turns.

Third, is about combat squads. If i combat squad my assault marines should I put both meltas in one squad or one in each squad? Also won't combat squading make it easier for my opponent to kill of my priests? Since they will only have 5 marines each protecting them instead of 10 each.

Forth, when dropping is it better to drop my priests first or last?? Like is it better to drop around the priests or set units up where they needed and then drop priests?

I had more but I can't remember them now and this e-mail is already rather long.

So thank you in advance for any help you can offer =].

~ Luke"

Hey Luke, glad you like the blog and thanks for the e-mail. Always good to see people gaining benefits from what I try and do =D. I'd personally hold off on the DE until the new book is released unless you love the models as they are now. They are an excellent mono-build atm but I imagine that will change shortly. Pure Jumper from BA is an excellent list and very competitive in 5th if played right. You're correct on the Descent of Angels and they also only scatter D6" instead of the usual 2D6". Very important. I also cannot see anyone having a problem with you running DC as Vanguard Vets as long as you let them know before. I'll be combining DC and Sanguinary Guard boxes to create my VV but that's just because those wings look awesome (the Sanguinary Guard torsos will become my Honor Guard). Let's get down to your tactical questions then!

To  number 2) at smaller point games, no. The SS's are very important and either need to be on the VV or your HG. Even at 1500 pts you're going to see units like TH/SS termiantors who will crush your army unless you have someone with good staying power and this comes in the forms of SS. If you can fit SS into your army, 3 VVs and enough Troops then go ahead but at 1500 pts I think you'll find that a problem. At 2000 though, much more likely though you are likely sacrificing on the Troops or Honor Guard front.

To number 3) and combat squads. This varies per game. Rule of thumb is generally one melta per unit, especially against mech as you get more fire saturation (can hit more targets). Against other lists though such as MC based lists where you want your PFists in combat but not your meltaguns, it can sometimes be wiser to double up the meltaguns on one squad. There are cons to this though as your enemy can target your meltaguns more easily so make sure you weigh it up before hand. I'd only do this if I was sure I could keep the meltagunner units out of combat for as long as possible (i.e. Blood Rodeo) and engage the enemy with the PFist side. However, splitting them up more often than not is your best bet.

With number 4) I'd always rather drop my VV first and then Priests. This way I know if my VV are going to be able to assault and can then build up the core of ASM/HG/Libbies around Priests as needed. When you've got Dante though, drop one of the Priests (or HG squads) last with Dante to ensure a bubble where it is needed, especially if it's a tight fit. Whilst only scattering D6" makes Jumpers viable (along with the re-roll on reserves), your army can still end up pretty spread out if you get bad rolls.

Hope that answers your questions and I'd recommend looking at the other Jumper lists on this website and the How To: Jumper article. If you have any more questions just give me a shout here.

11 pinkments:

Jason said...

The biggest problem I have had running an all jumper list is how to deal with units that can out assault me. For example, playing against wolves, I ran into a wolf lord on a mount and 4TWC buddies. They charged a five man combat squad (my bait) and I counter charged with 20 RAS and 5 VV and you know who won the combat? The wolf lord. I have had the same issue with Tyranid MCs. I am starting to feel that I need some long range (i.e., devastator) support in order to soften the elite assault units up before getting stuck in.

Kirby said...

Mass assault is the best option and that's also what your SS are for. You can stick them in there to survive for a decent time to either engage a mass assault or damage the rest of your opponent's army. The only real fix is something like Sang Guard or Termies who have big hitting power but Sang Guard have poor defenses for that type of battle and Termies aren't Jump Packers.

If you want Devs it becomes a trade-off between Devs & VV and I think being able to clear bubble-wrap is much more important.

Chumbalaya said...

Bringing a hammer unit like Sanguinary Guard really helps equalize against tougher targets. My Bloodwing may not have numbers, but nearly anything that the furious charging SG touch is dead. Mass meltas work too.

Jason said...

I understand that mass assault is my only option, but it is not effective against elite assault units. Avoidance is the best plan that I can come up with if I dont add an elite assault unit (RAS are not it). Unfortunately, it is not easy to avoid TWC.

Luke said...

Thanks for the reply =]
Yeah I have read the how to and how not to jumper articles and well most of the blog. lol
I also love the wings on the sang guard(pretty sure everyone does) but I can't really stand the single jump pack.

2)Alrighty so SS on the vets is a must, got you. SS on death company should look pretty awesome. After I get my codex I'll write up some lists and see if I can balance my numbers of troops/vanguard/FC and FnP bubbles.

3)I did think the combat squading was something I'd pick up from game experience but decided there was no harm in asking about it.
But anyway fire saturation is good, got it.(I really should of known that and feel kinda silly forgetting about it when i wrote that e-mail.)

Thou you didn't mention anything about priests but i guessing fire saturation is more important than having 10 marines stand around to protect one guy. I guess I'm just concerned of people killing my priests which from what I understand are essential for a pure jumper list. Since losing any priests when I drop is really going to blunt my charges next turn. But I guess good use of VV and keeping my army together should help.

4) VV first, then priests, then the rest, got it. Hmm I don't know what I think about dante atm(I don't really like one handed power axes), but as I running a successor chapter will I be able to convert a model and have it a counts as dante? I thinking something with wings and lightning claws and infernus pistols attached to the claws.
I just don't know if I'll be able to use it in tournaments =[.

OK! New questions! Concerning bubble wraps, objectives and more!

First up is bubble wraps. Now you keep saying the VV are there to clear out bubble wraps but isn't one of the main reasons for bubble wrap to keep people out of melta range and since shooting comes before assaults the bubble wrap is already doing it's job.
I guess there really isn't a way around bubble wrap on the drop and best you can do is clear the bubbles on the drop and melta next turn?

Now Objectives, only being able to capture objectives with troops is pretty new to me, but I do rather like the idea of it.
Anyway question, is it more important to target threats to my army instead of my opponents troops at the start of the game and focus on their troops later?

Also since the army is all in your face and dropping near the opponent and shit, what happens when there is an objective in my deployment zone?
Should I leave it too my opponent and focus on the main part of his army? or should I drop a 5 man squad to take it when I drop?

I'm thinking more leave the objective and only try and take it towards the end of the game if one of my squads are free. Since with so few bodies don't really have any to spare with baby sitting an objective for the whole game.

OK last question(for now)
When I drop is it a good idea to drop on one side of my opponents deployment zone and hope his own squads get in the way of him trying to kill mine???
With such a need for FC/FnP bubbles I don't think purposely spreading out will be such a good idea.

Oh also about the picture
Duel lightning claws + jumpack = awesome!
But the paint scheme is kinda ugly imo. lol

Anyway thanks again for the reply =].

Kirby said...

2) SS somewhere in army. If your HG have them your VV don't really need them.

3) Forgot about the Priest question sorry. Generally 5 man squads are fine, I prfer to keep them out ofcombat personally but with the new FC/FNP ruling they need to be closer. Generally in 5 man units they have more flexibility in where to be and therefore coverage so it'll be interesting to see if this ruling affects how I move him at all.

4) Yes to counts as Dante.

New questions!

1) Bubble wrap is there for 2 reasons, the 1st as is you stated is to defend against alpha strikes the 2nd is to keep assault units away for as long as possible. VV remove this 2nd option. Not much you can do about the first but having your Jumpers being able to get into meltaing vehicles the 2nd turn they drop & assautling is huge.

2) Yes. Kill killing power first. As the game rolls on you can take on Troops "at your lesiure."

3) You can drop a small 5 man combat squad there (ensure no specials) but depends how far back it is and what type of game/army you're playing. Against Tau in c&c, no. You're either going to get wiped off the table or you'll get to their objective. :P

4) Concentrate your drops yes, don't spread out.

@paint scheme; not mine I steal pics and link them back =D!

Luke said...

2) Hmmm is throwing one of my FC/FnP bubbles and 3ish meltas into combat with my opponents super units really such a good idea o.o even if they have SS?

3) lol Don't be sorry. Your taking time to answer my questions =P
I guess where I place my priests is kinda more important than my opponents targeting the squads with the priests. Since he doesn't need to target them if my other squads are too far from my priest squad to even gain his effect.

4) awesome, thou libby comes first, will work on a dante wannabe later.

Second group of questions x3

1) Alrights, but hmm how important are things like power weapons or fists in VV? Chainswords and SS can tie up shooty units on the drop but they aren't that great at killing things.

2) Thought so but just wanted to check.

3) Hmm that means unless I take a 5man squad with no specials I will most likely end up with 2 meltas and a PF in 1 5 man squad, not sure I like that idea.

4) Got it.

I ordered my codex today X3
24 hour shipping and no postage kinda surprised me o.o I've never brought warhammer online before

But anyway should have my codex soon =D
So can get around to actually writing lists. lol

Thanks for the reply =D

Kirby said...

2) Personally, no :P. But it's been done. I think it makes your HG an even bigger target so prefer to put themon my VV.

3) If only I got paid...; Priest placement is very important ^^. If you're worried you can always keep a 10 man unit together for him but you lose some flexibility

1b) less important. Most things you want to kill will generally fold to 12x S5 I5 and 3 S5 I5 power weapon attacks but you can always add in some LCs & PFist at higher points or if you have points to spare.

3b) Ya it puts a lot into another squad but if it can win you a game (i.e. static gunline which you may not be able to wipe & you can hide your objective). I'd prefer to put the objective as close to the fighting as possible and attempt to drag combat closer towards it.

Lists are good (expects more BA list requests in his inbox...).

Luke said...

2) Yeah I think I'll stick to putting my SS on VV but I will keep the HG option in mind.

3) don't look at me I'm pretty much broke xD

1b) awesome x3 DoWII kinda made me obbessed with chainswords D:

3b) The idea of putting my objective closer to the fighting sounds better than hiding but I'll make sure I keep the hiding idea in mind.
Hmmm unless I have missed something Jump pack troops can also run yeah?(whole running thing is new to me).

lol Don't worry I'll try and only send you decent lists. xD I'll save any stupid/super fluffy/ones made out of pure boredom for places like warseer. lol

Kirby said...

DoWII made me obsessed with Libbies and Terminator armor all over again :P. Look forward to your lists and how your games go!

P.S. do you live in Australia? Otherwise you are responding at odd times...

Luke said...

I was kinda disappointed in the libby from DoWII =/

And yeah, living in vic atm. Sometimes I just can't sleep thou so I'll prob respond at odd times some days anyway.

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