Email in: List review [Space Marines]

“Yes, this is the chris.bibliophile that posts on YTTH, and I'm looking for some advice on improving a list. Right now, it is doing very well, but my environment isn't super competitive. At the end of the summer however, I'll be heading out to DC for grad school (unfortunately after the Nova Open) and from everything MVB's said the competition out there is pretty solid, so I'd like some external criticism of the list. Specific concerns are at the end.

Vanilla Marines, 2k -

- Libby w/ Null Zone, Avenger

- Dred w/ MM, DCCW, Storm Bolter
- Dred w/ MM, DCCW, Storm Bolter
- Dred w/ MM, DCCW, Storm Bolter

- 10x Tac Marine w/ Flamer, MM, Combi F, in Rhino
- 10x Tac Marine w/ Flamer, MM, Combi F, in Rhino
- 10x Tac Marine w/ Flamer, Missile, Bolter on Sgt, in Razorback w/LasPlas, HK Missile
- 10x Tac Marine w/ Flamer, Missile, Bolter on Sgt, in Razorback w/LasPlas, HK Missile

- 2x Speeder w/ MM, HF
- 2x Speeder w/ MM, HF

- Pred w/ Autocannon, Lascannon Sponson
- Pred w/ Autocannon, Lascannon Sponson
- Pred w/ Autocannon, Lascannon Sponson

This list was largely inspired by an email into stelek a few months back where someone was asking if he thought the 1750 GT list he posted a few years back (motf, 3x dred, 3x tac in rhino, 3x mm/hf speeder, 3x dakka pred, Tellion scout sniper squad) was still viable in the current environment. I liked the concept of the list, with its focus on midfield presence, but i thought it lacked sufficient long range shooting and psychic defense for how the game is payed now. This list was an attempt to build a 2k version of that list that could be more successful against newer dexes and builds, mainly by backing up that midfield presence with enough long range shooting that it won't get smeared by gunlines or ran over by lists that are better in assault.

Technically, its only 1995 points, but i like symmetry in my lists, and since the libby can't buy melta bSoombs those last 5 points lack a good home.

List plays pretty simply. Missile and sgt from razorback squads, razorbacks, and preds get set up with good lines of fire, rhinos, and dreds set up to either run at the enemy or interpose themselves between me and them, and speeders set up to either hide and pounce on something nasty coming my way or go out and hunt enemy vehicles. First turn shooting is decent but not great, but once the multi melta's get into position to start making long range shots the list begins to put out a good deal of firepower. While it looks light on anti infantry, between the mass bolters, flamers, and the assault power of the dreds i haven't had too much trouble dealing with people on foot, and with null zone and up to 23 ap 2 or 1 shots a turn, i can deal with assault terms pretty comfortably. I've considered switching to 3x1 speeders instead of 2x2 and switching the dreds to riflemen, but I've found both the assault capability of the dreds and the extra multi melta's to be too useful to give up (plus, firing two heavy flamers at the same time kills so much more than firing one after the other).

So, my specific questions would be.

1: Is the concept of the list (a Codex Marines list that attempts to combine a strong midfield presence with a good amount of long range shooting) viable, or is it fundamentally flawed?
2: Does this list constitute an effective execution of that concept, or are there substantial flaws with it that need correction?
3: Are Codex marines the proper army for this concept, or is this a case of SW/BA do it better?

Thanks.”

Stealing Stelek’s emails FTW =) lol. Chris emailed me again and asked me to ignore the typos which is depressing because melta bSoombs sound awesome! First off, good luck on your grad course, it’s a shame you need two degrees these days to get decent jobs (or just learn how to fix toilets) and could you link Stelek’s post? Would be interested to see it. And I know the pic has nothing to do with the post...but it looks pretty. Flamey... So onto your specific questions...

1. Certainly viable. Anyone who knows my SM list @ 2k will be uncomfortably familiar with this set up minus the Rifledreads. Whilst MM Dreads offer some combat potential, the ability to create a fair amount of downfield firepower from Dreads/Preds/Speeders/Tacs/RBacks which only gets better as you get closer...
2. Yes it does. There are a few changes I would suggest (seen below) but nothing fundamentally wrong with it.
3. Absolutely. BA are out of the question, they run a completely different type of list that is more akin to Eldar. Space Wolves can run it, but differently. The inability for GH squads to take Heavy Weapons and if you want double specials you’re sitting on Ld8 so much less midfield presence. SW would do a Hybrid orientation to this list where LFs provide more fire saturation (but are weaker) with Rifledreads whilst TWC & Grey Hunters are much more aggressive in midfield (i.e. TWC > you) which thus makes it a different list entirely. They’re similar, but Vanilla in terms of the original Best Of list, do it better.

So let’s take a look at your list. Again, it’s a fine list I just think a bit of tinkering could make it more streamlined. My main issue is with the LasPlas RBack squads. If you shave them back to 5 men each and maintain the HK missile you save 160 pts. This allows you to grab 2 more speeders (and if you take off the combi-flamers on the reg Tacs or the HK missiles, this gives you 2x Typhoons [also if you took off the HKs, move the combis to the LasPlas squads) which essentially doubles the firepower you “lose.” With 30 remaining Tacs & 3 Dreads you’ve still got an impressive midfield force. If you wanted to keep the combi-flamers/HKs use the extra 20 pts to either add 2 more combis to the LasPlas squads or 2 HKs to the Rhinos for a bigger first turn punch. Personally I’d go with the 2x Typhoons but that’s me putting my little spin on it dropping the HKs off the LasPlas and giving them each a combi-flamer.

What do the rest of you think? The internet forums think Vanilla marines are useless compared to BA and SW but they generally seem to lack enough wattage to power a light bulb, i.e. Bikers & TH/SS termies. Are Vanilla Marines still the best midfield mech around? Specifically within the Marine book context or have they been kicked off their perch?