I can feel the Templar Love! Kirby forwarded this e-mail for me to take a look at as he's a Templar N00b! [all laugh at Kirby]Hope Navitude doesn't mind, I'm sure Kirby will wade in with his opinion.
Hi,
Last time I sent you an email it was about the HGuard VS. VVeteran load outs for BA. Thanks for the advice, it really worked. Problem is it worked to well, and with about 7 to 10 people playing the same sort of lists, our clubs kinda put up a no BA's armies for a bit.
To be honest I don't like BA fluff, nor the new models anyways and am really looking for a new army to play. Since I am still kinda new to the game, fluff and story wise, I went around reading the BT and DA codicies. I have to say I really love the BT flavor, and love the models and upgrade kits. I know that a lot of the units are overpriced and don't quite add up to the new codecies, but I'm up for a challenge.
Two weeks later, I have to say otherwise. I play a double CRaider list that doesn't pack the punch the way it should in theory, and after fiddling around to much I have to ask for help. Body count is high while vehicle count is low, target saturation is minimal, two high point sinks, and and not enough mobile and long range anti-T and pie.
If it's alright with you, can I ask if you could please take a look?
- Navitude
Emperor's Champion - ATCNMTO - 140
SB ATerminators Squad (8) - LC(4), TH/SS (4), Furious Charge - 344
Land Raider Crusader - Searchlight, SLaunchers - 269
Crusader Squad (10) - BP/CCW, BP/PFist, Meltagun, Neophyte's (4) with BP/CCW - 225
Land Raider Crusader - Searchlight, SLaunchers - 269
Crusader Squad (9) - BP/CCW, BP/PFist, Meltagun, Neophyte's (1) with BP/CCW - 179
Rhino - EArmour, Searchlight, SLaunchers - 59
Crusader Squad (9) - BP/CCW, BP/PFist, Meltagun, Neophyte's (1) with BP/CCW - 179
Rhino - EArmour, Searchlight, SLaunchers - 59
Land Speeder - MM, HF - 75
Land Speeder - MM, HF - 75
Land Speeder - MM, HF - 75
Total: 1948
It's awesome you chose Templars, the upgrade packs are sweet, they're great fun to play and yes, they certainly are a 'challenge'. I don't think double Raider lists are one of the truly 'competitive' builds BT have to offer (Gunline & Drop Pod), but I think this one could certainly do with a bit of tweaking.
So what are you packing? Nothing with >24" range and therefore you're going to have to weather a lot of shooting on the first turn if you want to stay in the game. From experience, this is unlikely. At closer range you have 5 MM and 2 Assault Cannons. The problem with the LR weaponry is this list wants to keep moving which either prevents you from shooting at all or forces you to shoot one weapon at BS2 (old PotMS FTL!). You get a further 3 meltaguns when you're in your opponents face, if you make it. When (if) you reach CC you own. That 8 man unit WILL tear through almost anything in the game and will have no trouble what so ever going toe-to-toe with multiple MCs. Overkill if anything!
Your opponent only really has 4 targets turn one (I'm assuming the speeders are deep-striking or hidden), making his target priority pretty easy. His only consideration is whether he shoots the beat-face unit or the potentially more valuable Troop unit.
Dual lists can be done, and in a few different ways. Stelek posted a 2.5k variant for Ard Boyz, but squeezing it all in to 2k is a little tougher, especially without using allied support (I assume that's not what you plan looking at your list). My own feeling is that the crusader squads tend not to pack the punch that you want and assault terminators are better off using the bling bling rides. Crusader squads will do well in CC against a lot of things, re-rolls to hit n'all, but I often leave a combat a little deflated... if only they could drink from that cup of blood.
I played quite a bit on Vassal at 2k and did reasonably well even against WAAC internet celebs (only joking Chumby). This is a bit of a variant of the list I used, with a bit more support.
Emperor's Champion - Accept any Challenge - 140
Assault Terminators (5) - 3xLC, 2xTH/SS, Furious Charge - 215
Land Raider Crusader - Smoke Launchers - 268
Assault Terminators (5) - 3xLC, 2xTH/SS, Furious Charge - 215
Land Raider Crusader - Smoke Launchers - 268
Crusader Squad (5) - Lascannon/Flamer, 1 Neophyte - 110
Rhino - 50
Crusader Squad (5) - Lascannon/Flamer, 1 Neophyte - 110
Rhino - 50
Crusader Squad (5) - Lascannon/Flamer, 1 Neophyte - 110
Rhino - 50
Land Speeder - MM/HF - 75
Land Speeder - MM/HF - 75
Predator Destructor - Lascannon Sponsons, Searchlight, Extra armour - 131
Predator Destructor - Lascannon Sponsons, Searchlight,Extra armour - 131
1998
Again, the list still needs play-testing, and I'd consider swapping out the speeders for another crusader squad. 2 Crusader could also bit changed up to PF/MG and be a mop-up squad for the terminators.
But with two beat-face squads, a reasonable amount of ranged support and some speeders in there to terrorize, I think it's a very reasonable list. The EC runs with one of the termie squads and then rhinos line up behind the preds of course. Speeders can suicide or be held for late game contesting as always.
Hope that offers some food for thought.
8 pinkments:
I actually have quite a bit of experience with Dual Land Raider lists, and unfortunately, they are incredibly difficult to win with at 2k points. As Brother Loring mentioned, it all comes down to target saturation. You won't have any.
One of the strengths of the assault terminator squads is that they are "relatively" cheap. 215 points for an extremely killy squad (3xLC, 2xTH/SS) is awesome. Just having 5 terminators a squad will clean house with pretty much any unit they choose to charge. 3 LC termies will kill on average 8 MEQ on the charge, and the TH/SS killing 3.75 models.
The problem comes in when you have to buy transports for them. This puts you at about 500 points each. Leaving you with about 900 points to play around with (because you have to have the EC). With those points, you have to have the two troops and some fire support. I believe Loring is on the correct thought process when he suggested using shooty crusader squads. But there is something missing there, and in my opinion, its Razorbacks with TL Lascannons. These add more punch to your army.
Like BroLo said before me, I don't believe Dual Land Raider lists are one of our super-competitive armies. Gunline lists hold that honor, with drop pod armies following closely behind. With that being said, they ARE extremely fun to play if you won't mind losing once in a while. :)
Here is how I personally play the Dual LR list:
HQ:
* Emperor's Champion w/ Black Sword, Bolt Pistol, Armor of Faith, Frag Grenades, and the Vow: "Accept Any Challenge, No Matter the Odds" [140]
Elites:
* 5 Assault Terminators w/ 3 pairs Lightning Claws, 2 Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields & Furious Charge. Mounted in Land Raider Crusader w/ Smoke Launchers. [483]
* 5 Assault Terminators w/ 3 pairs Lightning Claws, 2 Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields & Furious Charge. Mounted in Land Raider Crusader w/ Smoke Launchers. [483]
* Venerable Dreadnought: Twin-Linked Lascannons, Missile Launcher, Extra Armor, and Tank Hunters. [170]
Troops:
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 1 Flamer & 1 Lascannon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannon. [191]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 1 Flamer & 1 Lascannon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannon. [191]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 1 Flamer & 1 Lascannon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannon. [191]
Fast Attack:
* Land Speeder: Multi-melta and Heavy Flamer. [75]
* Land Speeder: Multi-melta and Heavy Flamer. [75]
Total Points: [1999]
I do think Navitude's list doesn't have enough >24" shooty.
A LasBack + LC squad amongst Las-sponsoned Preds is a good idea.
Claiming an Objective [which is how you win 2/3rds of Missions] is great and suppressing fire so your Attack elements can get in easier is a good thing.
I think a Crusader Rhino trailing after the Terms+LRC is a good thing ~ they are scoring and add good kill quantity per point against non-MEq stuff.
In all honesty, dual raider is best done by Vanilla @ 2k but I think BroLo's list with BT is a good example with enough support. Might try and get Plasma or meltaguns instead of the flamers though for a bit more ranged pewpew.
Plasma and melta doesn't help you if you're just sitting back firing from your deployment zone. Sure, when something gets close, you'll be in better shape. But what happens when you face something that is mob infantry? A plasma/melta isn't going to do crap to it. So the flamer is in there for duality purposes. ;)
The list isn't really lacking in anti-infantry with the LC Termies, re-rolls in combat, 2 LRCs & 2 Speeders. PGun can help mildly with ranged firepower or melta can provide more anti-tank in a last pinch effort. There's no right or wrong here but flamers certainly aren't needed to cover anti-infantry bases.
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