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"Pink isn't a color. It's a lifestyle." - Chumbalaya
"...generalship should be informing list building." - Sir Biscuit
"I buy models with my excess money" - Valkyrie whilst a waitress leans over him

Wednesday, August 31, 2011

COMP at Carnage...

Rather than replying in the comments section of my last post, I thought I'd do a few posts on some lists and the how the comp scoring work. Like I've said, I was fully aware of there being comp when I signed up for the event and I'm only trying to show how it doesn't work rather than whining about it being in place. If something worked to balance things out and vary the armies we see, then I'd be up for it. As it is... I don't believe any 'comp' rules I've seen to date do this.

Again, this is not meant to be a rant about comp, more about my opinions about my experience in a comp'd tournament.

So, here is the scoring system.

Each army starts with 100 points.

Any Named Character included in list -10 pts
For each duplication (except Troops):
First duplication -5pts each
Second and subsequent duplication - 20pts each

Note 1
Duplication ignores variants/weapon options - so a Landraider and a Landraider crusader would count as 1 duplication (-5)
Note 2
Dedicated transport duplications are only ever penalised at the -5 rate
Note 3
Vehicle Squadrons count towards duplications as follows. The first squadron (regardless of numbers) do not count as duplications (so 3 speeders in one squadron would incur no penalty).
However a second squadron of the same type incurs duplication penalties for each vehicle, counting all vehicles of that type.

For example:
1 squadron of 3 = no penalty
2 squadrons of 1 = -5
1 squadron of 2 and 1 of 1 = -20
2 squadrons of 2 = -40

There were some questions as you may have guessed...

Does Eldrad count as a Farseer for the purposes of Duplication?
What a about Logan and a Wolf Lord?

Arrrgh! Tricky question, with the examples above I'd say yes, they would, but am wary that there are many special characters and one rule may not fit all. If anyone wants to take a special character and another HQ choice that appears similar, pm me and I'll put it to the team and get back to you with a definitive answer.

lolwut - so i get hit for a special character AND for duplicating a choice... cheers.

The math on the examples seems a bit odd.

Wouldn't "1 squadron of 2 and 1 of 1" incur either:
-5 as The first squadron (regardless of numbers) do not count as duplications
or -25 (-5 for first duplication (as the 1st Squadron Rule is negated) + -20 for second duplication)

Yes, the maths are odd, but it's intentional and only for squadrons. What's happening above is the first squadron (of two) get no duplication, but the second squadron get the duplication as if all vehicles were individual. So by putting 2 in a squadron you're 'saving' yourself the first -5 penalty.

The maths are still odd... but oh well

There were many more points and questions along the lines of 'do count-as troops (e.g. henchmen) count as troops'... yes.... and other equally silly points.

Note: Rather than lists starting at 100 and the points deducted, it just seems that the points were added. Hope that helps avoid confusion.

Anyway. After all of the lists' composition had been marked they were given a score from 0-100 they were ranked. The top 12 (ended up being 13 because 2 were at 35) were classed as being 'filth' and the bottom 12 were 'fluffy'. Interestingly, the bottom 12 varied from 0-10 points and the top 13 varied from 35-100. So... quite a wide margin in the upper bracket and I'd guess that several people attempted to 'tame' their list not to become labeled as 'filth'.

Anywho... how did this affect them? Well, firstly the 'filth' lists were deducted 10 battle points and the 'fluffy' lists were given a bonus 10 points. On top of this, you would only play players in your bracket for the first 2 rounds. So filth on filth for 2 rounds, norms on norms and fluff on fluff.

Let's look at how this affected the overall rankings... (I've annonymised the data, so all you have is numbers)

Codex Comp

1 Grey Knights 100 Filth 3 2
2 Grey Knights 95 Filth 6 1
3 Imperial Guard 75 Filth 26 19
4 Space Wolves 55 Filth 28 21
5 Dark Eldar 55 Filth 18 6
6 Imperial Guard 55 Filth 43 42
7 Imperial Guard 50 Filth 41 39
8 Imperial Guard 50 Filth 42 38
9 Grey Knights 45 Filth 19 7
10 Space Wolves 40 Filth 32 30
11 Dark Eldar 35 Filth 33 29
12 Space Wolves 35 Filth 24 18
13 Chaos Daemons 35 Filth 29 27
14 Grey Knights 30 Vanilla 4 4
15 Space Marines 30 Vanilla 35 34
16 Grey Knights 25 Vanilla 15 17
17 Imperial Guard 20 Vanilla 22 22
18 Black Templars 20 Vanilla 10 8
19 Space Wolves 20 Vanilla 12 11
20 Space Wolves 20 Vanilla 31 32
21 Chaos Daemons 20 Vanilla 11 10
22 Blood Angels 20 Vanilla - -
23 Chaos Daemons 15 Vanilla 25 25
24 Necrons 15 Vanilla 13 14
25 Grey Knights 15 Vanilla 23 20
26 Space Wolves 15 Vanilla 27 28
27 Chaos Marines 15 Vanilla 40 40
28 Eldar 15 Vanilla 14 16
29 Orks 15 Vanilla 38 37
30 Space Marines 15 Vanilla 2 5
31 Tyranids 15 Vanilla 36 35
32 Orks 15 Vanilla 34 33
33 Grey Knights 10 Mr Stay Puft 1 3
34 Tyranids 10 Mr Stay Puft 5 13
35 Chaos Daemons 10 Mr Stay Puft 17 26
36 Tyranids 10 Mr Stay Puft 16 23
37 Space Wolves 10 Mr Stay Puft 30 36
38 Blood Angels 10 Mr Stay Puft 37 43
39 Chaos Daemons 5 Mr Stay Puft 21 24
40 Eldar 5 Mr Stay Puft 39 41
41 Space Marines 5 Mr Stay Puft 9 12
42 Tyranids 0 Mr Stay Puft 8 9
43 Blood Angels 0 Mr Stay Puft 20 31
44 Grey Knights 0 Mr Stay Puft 7 15

We have some big gainers with soft scores... and some big losers. Players 5 and 9 jump from 18th and 19th to 6th and 7th respectively on Battle Points alone. Player 43 jumps from 20 to 31 and player 35 from 17th to 26th. Some may say that COMP seems to have balanced things well (shifting players up and down in the overall standings). However, with battle points alone, 2 of the 'fluff' players would have reached top 10 and 5 would have been in the top 50%. So how can their lists have hindered them so much? Five of the 13 'filth' lists would've landed in the bottom half and 3 of these in the bottom 6. Again... this proves that the list does not maketh the player.

The top 10 comprise - GK/GK/GK/GK/SM/DE/GK/BT/Nids/CD
The bottom 10 comprise - BA/IG/E/CSM/IG/IG/Orks/SW/Nids/SM

Okay, okay, GK comprise the top 4 and don't feature in the bottom 10. Their codex is very good, we all know that. But remember, they do comprise about 20% of the lists at the tournament. I will also say that several 'well known' players were playing GK at this tournament and I'm sure they'd do well with many other codices. Also, SW, IG and BA don't appear in the top 10 and do appear in the bottom 10. I thought these were also 'auto-win' codices before GK came along?Obviously not.

I'm not going to claim 'balance'. The Grey Knight codex is very strong. I'm not sure if it's outrightly better than other codices or it's easier to do well with. There is a difference. I don't know. All I do know, is that I wasn't particularly scared of the 2 GK lists I faced. I lost to one because of a round of very lucky rolls on my opponents part and I beat the second, with both of us having average rolls I would say (if anything he had one round of good rolls). However... did comp change this? No. Players took good lists comp or not. I'd rather people put the effort they put into complaining about the 'dex into playtesting against it.

Anyway... as promised, here's a list that was considered 'filthy'. Comp score 55.

HQ - Company command with grenade launcher,heavy bolter & vox.

Troops - Vets with 3 plasma gun,plasma pistol & vox.

Troops - Vets with grenade launcher,missile laucher & vox.

Troops - Vets with grenade launcher,las cannon & vox.

Fast - Hell Hound

Fast - Devil Dog with multi melta

Heavy - Leman Russ Squadron
Demolisher with las cannon & heavy bolters
Exterminator with heavy bolters

Heavy - Leman Russ Squadron
Leman Russ with las cannon & plasma cannons
Leman Russ with las cannon & plasma cannons

Now... the 2 x 2 squadron of LRs would have hurt and the 4 Chimera transports also. But, does this list really scare a good player? I wouldn't have bothered me. I'd have happily taken it on and if I had to put in in filth or fluff... it'd go in the fluff.

My list...


Elites - Terms - 2 x CML, 2 x Chainfist, Tankhunters

Elites - Terms - 2 x CML, 2 x Chainfist, Tankhunters

Troops - Crusader Squad (5) - Melta/MM

Troops - Crusader Squad (5) - Melta/MM

Troops - Crusader Squad (5) - Flamer

Troops - Crusader Squad (5) - Las/Plas

Troops - Crusader Squad (5) - Las/Plas

Fast - Speeder - TML

Fast - Speeder - TML

Heavy - Auto-Las Pred

Heavy - Auto-Las Pred

Comp score 20 (I think it should have been 25, but that would've changed nothing). Maybe I 'broke' comp. Maybe I'm a better player than I think I am? Maybe not playing any 'filth' players in the first two rounds highly influenced my outcome. I'd like to think it's the second, but I suspect it's the latter. By the way... the 'filth' player above finished last overall and last but one on battle points. I'm sure he 'enjoyed' his first two games and I seriously hope he doesn't quit the hobby. Or worse still... start GK.

I'll be getting more lists, and I particularly want to see some of the 'fluff' lists that did well to see what they're like to gain 'fluff' status.

Personally I want to win on battle points. I don't like the fact that I went with a 95% painted list, but I care not for soft scores or comp. I'd happily play any list and give it a tough game. It's frustrating not playing the 'toughtest' of lists as it feels a bit like I cheated my way to the top 10. Looking at the final rankings half of those lists ended pretty low anyway, so i suspect it would have changed very little.

Anyway, what are your thoughts? Did 'comp' work? Next time I'll try to discuss other elements of 'comp' - variety.

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