COMP at Carnage...

Rather than replying in the comments section of my last post, I thought I'd do a few posts on some lists and the how the comp scoring work. Like I've said, I was fully aware of there being comp when I signed up for the event and I'm only trying to show how it doesn't work rather than whining about it being in place. If something worked to balance things out and vary the armies we see, then I'd be up for it. As it is... I don't believe any 'comp' rules I've seen to date do this.

Again, this is not meant to be a rant about comp, more about my opinions about my experience in a comp'd tournament.

So, here is the scoring system.

Each army starts with 100 points.

Any Named Character included in list -10 pts
For each duplication (except Troops):
First duplication -5pts each
Second and subsequent duplication - 20pts each

Note 1
Duplication ignores variants/weapon options - so a Landraider and a Landraider crusader would count as 1 duplication (-5)
Note 2
Dedicated transport duplications are only ever penalised at the -5 rate
Note 3
Vehicle Squadrons count towards duplications as follows. The first squadron (regardless of numbers) do not count as duplications (so 3 speeders in one squadron would incur no penalty).
However a second squadron of the same type incurs duplication penalties for each vehicle, counting all vehicles of that type.

For example:
1 squadron of 3 = no penalty
2 squadrons of 1 = -5
1 squadron of 2 and 1 of 1 = -20
2 squadrons of 2 = -40

There were some questions as you may have guessed...

Does Eldrad count as a Farseer for the purposes of Duplication?
What a about Logan and a Wolf Lord?

Arrrgh! Tricky question, with the examples above I'd say yes, they would, but am wary that there are many special characters and one rule may not fit all. If anyone wants to take a special character and another HQ choice that appears similar, pm me and I'll put it to the team and get back to you with a definitive answer.

lolwut - so i get hit for a special character AND for duplicating a choice... cheers.

The math on the examples seems a bit odd.

Wouldn't "1 squadron of 2 and 1 of 1" incur either:
-5 as The first squadron (regardless of numbers) do not count as duplications
or -25 (-5 for first duplication (as the 1st Squadron Rule is negated) + -20 for second duplication)

Yes, the maths are odd, but it's intentional and only for squadrons. What's happening above is the first squadron (of two) get no duplication, but the second squadron get the duplication as if all vehicles were individual. So by putting 2 in a squadron you're 'saving' yourself the first -5 penalty.

The maths are still odd... but oh well

There were many more points and questions along the lines of 'do count-as troops (e.g. henchmen) count as troops'... yes.... and other equally silly points.

Note: Rather than lists starting at 100 and the points deducted, it just seems that the points were added. Hope that helps avoid confusion.

Anyway. After all of the lists' composition had been marked they were given a score from 0-100 they were ranked. The top 12 (ended up being 13 because 2 were at 35) were classed as being 'filth' and the bottom 12 were 'fluffy'. Interestingly, the bottom 12 varied from 0-10 points and the top 13 varied from 35-100. So... quite a wide margin in the upper bracket and I'd guess that several people attempted to 'tame' their list not to become labeled as 'filth'.

Anywho... how did this affect them? Well, firstly the 'filth' lists were deducted 10 battle points and the 'fluffy' lists were given a bonus 10 points. On top of this, you would only play players in your bracket for the first 2 rounds. So filth on filth for 2 rounds, norms on norms and fluff on fluff.

Let's look at how this affected the overall rankings... (I've annonymised the data, so all you have is numbers)

Comp Ranking	Codex	Comp Score	Designation	Position (Overall)	Position (BPs)
1	Grey Knights	100	Filth	3	2
2	Grey Knights	95	Filth	6	1
3	Imperial Guard	75	Filth	26	19
4	Space Wolves	55	Filth	28	21
5	Dark Eldar	55	Filth	18	6
6	Imperial Guard	55	Filth	43	42
7	Imperial Guard	50	Filth	41	39
8	Imperial Guard	50	Filth	42	38
9	Grey Knights	45	Filth	19	7
10	Space Wolves	40	Filth	32	30
11	Dark Eldar	35	Filth	33	29
12	Space Wolves	35	Filth	24	18
13	Chaos Daemons	35	Filth	29	27
14	Grey Knights	30	Vanilla	4	4
15	Space Marines	30	Vanilla	35	34
16	Grey Knights	25	Vanilla	15	17
17	Imperial Guard	20	Vanilla	22	22
18	Black Templars	20	Vanilla	10	8
19	Space Wolves	20	Vanilla	12	11
20	Space Wolves	20	Vanilla	31	32
21	Chaos Daemons	20	Vanilla	11	10
22	Blood Angels	20	Vanilla	-	-
23	Chaos Daemons	15	Vanilla	25	25
24	Necrons	15	Vanilla	13	14
25	Grey Knights	15	Vanilla	23	20
26	Space Wolves	15	Vanilla	27	28
27	Chaos Marines	15	Vanilla	40	40
28	Eldar	15	Vanilla	14	16
29	Orks	15	Vanilla	38	37
30	Space Marines	15	Vanilla	2	5
31	Tyranids	15	Vanilla	36	35
32	Orks	15	Vanilla	34	33
33	Grey Knights	10	Mr Stay Puft	1	3
34	Tyranids	10	Mr Stay Puft	5	13
35	Chaos Daemons	10	Mr Stay Puft	17	26
36	Tyranids	10	Mr Stay Puft	16	23
37	Space Wolves	10	Mr Stay Puft	30	36
38	Blood Angels	10	Mr Stay Puft	37	43
39	Chaos Daemons	5	Mr Stay Puft	21	24
40	Eldar	5	Mr Stay Puft	39	41
41	Space Marines	5	Mr Stay Puft	9	12
42	Tyranids	0	Mr Stay Puft	8	9
43	Blood Angels	0	Mr Stay Puft	20	31
44	Grey Knights	0	Mr Stay Puft	7	15

We have some big gainers with soft scores... and some big losers. Players 5 and 9 jump from 18th and 19th to 6th and 7th respectively on Battle Points alone. Player 43 jumps from 20 to 31 and player 35 from 17th to 26th. Some may say that COMP seems to have balanced things well (shifting players up and down in the overall standings). However, with battle points alone, 2 of the 'fluff' players would have reached top 10 and 5 would have been in the top 50%. So how can their lists have hindered them so much? Five of the 13 'filth' lists would've landed in the bottom half and 3 of these in the bottom 6. Again... this proves that the list does not maketh the player.

The top 10 comprise - GK/GK/GK/GK/SM/DE/GK/BT/Nids/CD

The bottom 10 comprise - BA/IG/E/CSM/IG/IG/Orks/SW/Nids/SM

Okay, okay, GK comprise the top 4 and don't feature in the bottom 10. Their codex is very good, we all know that. But remember, they do comprise about 20% of the lists at the tournament. I will also say that several 'well known' players were playing GK at this tournament and I'm sure they'd do well with many other codices. Also, SW, IG and BA don't appear in the top 10 and do appear in the bottom 10. I thought these were also 'auto-win' codices before GK came along?Obviously not.

I'm not going to claim 'balance'. The Grey Knight codex is very strong. I'm not sure if it's outrightly better than other codices or it's easier to do well with. There is a difference. I don't know. All I do know, is that I wasn't particularly scared of the 2 GK lists I faced. I lost to one because of a round of very lucky rolls on my opponents part and I beat the second, with both of us having average rolls I would say (if anything he had one round of good rolls). However... did comp change this? No. Players took good lists comp or not. I'd rather people put the effort they put into complaining about the 'dex into playtesting against it.

Anyway... as promised, here's a list that was considered 'filthy'. Comp score 55.

HQ - Company command with grenade launcher,heavy bolter & vox.
Chimera.

Troops - Vets with 3 plasma gun,plasma pistol & vox.
Chimera.

Troops - Vets with grenade launcher,missile laucher & vox.
Chimera.

Troops - Vets with grenade launcher,las cannon & vox.
Chimera.

Fast - Hell Hound

Fast - Devil Dog with multi melta

Heavy - Leman Russ Squadron
Demolisher with las cannon & heavy bolters
Exterminator with heavy bolters

Heavy - Leman Russ Squadron
Leman Russ with las cannon & plasma cannons
Leman Russ with las cannon & plasma cannons

Now... the 2 x 2 squadron of LRs would have hurt and the 4 Chimera transports also. But, does this list really scare a good player? I wouldn't have bothered me. I'd have happily taken it on and if I had to put in in filth or fluff... it'd go in the fluff.

My list...

HQ - EC - AAC

Elites - Terms - 2 x CML, 2 x Chainfist, Tankhunters

Elites - Terms - 2 x CML, 2 x Chainfist, Tankhunters

Troops - Crusader Squad (5) - Melta/MM

Rhino

Troops - Crusader Squad (5) - Melta/MM

Rhino

Troops - Crusader Squad (5) - Flamer

Rhino

Troops - Crusader Squad (5) - Las/Plas

Troops - Crusader Squad (5) - Las/Plas

Fast - Speeder - TML

Fast - Speeder - TML

Heavy - Auto-Las Pred

Heavy - Auto-Las Pred

Comp score 20 (I think it should have been 25, but that would've changed nothing). Maybe I 'broke' comp. Maybe I'm a better player than I think I am? Maybe not playing any 'filth' players in the first two rounds highly influenced my outcome. I'd like to think it's the second, but I suspect it's the latter. By the way... the 'filth' player above finished last overall and last but one on battle points. I'm sure he 'enjoyed' his first two games and I seriously hope he doesn't quit the hobby. Or worse still... start GK.

I'll be getting more lists, and I particularly want to see some of the 'fluff' lists that did well to see what they're like to gain 'fluff' status.

Personally I want to win on battle points. I don't like the fact that I went with a 95% painted list, but I care not for soft scores or comp. I'd happily play any list and give it a tough game. It's frustrating not playing the 'toughtest' of lists as it feels a bit like I cheated my way to the top 10. Looking at the final rankings half of those lists ended pretty low anyway, so i suspect it would have changed very little.

Anyway, what are your thoughts? Did 'comp' work? Next time I'll try to discuss other elements of 'comp' - variety.