Hi Kirby, ... yeah... he forwarded to me. I hope you don't mind.
This is my second time to email, but just to let you know that I love the great analysis and tacticas you guys put here, and I read the blog religiously. I too have been trying to come up with a balanced mech list for the Black Templars, as besides my SM Bike army, Black Templars has always been my favorite army. The whole renegade Crusaders thing is just the kind of Marines I can get into.
I played around with dual LR Crusader lists and then some PoTMS Vindicators lists, but I could not come up with a list that could have a reasonable chance of dealing with hordes consistently. I was also hamstringing myself with a lack of mobility. I have worked up a 2000 point fast mech list that I would appreciate you looking at. The list has a movable gunline with a small FistBubble. Only 3 small Troop squads mean I will be guarding them close, but I think the rest of the list present enough problems for most opponents. Check it out:
HQ (110 pts)
Emperor's Champion, Black Sword, Armor of Faith, Crusader Seals, Bolt pistol, Frag Grenades, Destroy the Witch Vow
Elites 1 (265 pts)
5x Terminators, 2@Cyclone ML, Tank Hunter
Elite 2 (165 pts)
Dreadnought, TL-Lascannon, ML, Venerable, Tank Hunter
Elite 2 (135 pts)
Dreadnought, TL-Lascannon, ML
Troops 1-2 (280 pts)
5x Initiates, 1@Multimelta, 4@ Bolt pistol & Close combat weapon, Rhino
Troop 3 (120 pts)
5x Initiates, 1@Meltagun, 4@ Bolt pistol & Close combat weapon, Drop Pod
Fast 1-3 (675 pts)
2x Landspeeder Typhoon ML/ Heavy Bolters, 1x Landspeeder Typhoon ML/ Multimelta
Heavy 1-2 (250 pts)
Predator Destructor (Autocannon) w/ Lascannon Sponsons
Total: 21 kps, 2x Predators, 2x Dreadnoughts, 2x Rhinos, 9x Landspeeders, 1x Drop Pod
15x Initiates, 5x Terminators, Champion
5x MM, 6x Lascannon, 2x Cyclone ML, 9x Typhoon ML, 2x ML, 2x Autocannon, 1x Meltagun
10x Stormbolters, 6x Heavy Bolters 13x Bolt pistols
So the Speeders, Dreads, Predators, and CML Terminators shoot at range, the Rhino MMs staying out of sight unless needed for heavy mech threats. The Termies and Champion form the bubble, and the Drop pod troops do their grabbing/ contesting thing along with any surviving Speeders lategame. Though not really meant for close combat, the Dreads can hold up some horde squads if needed. Destroy the Witch vow also gives me a little bit of protection versus psychic powers, which is nice.
The thing is, am I relying too much on Speeders? Sure, they are paper armor, but for the points I think they are great and I dont know what would be a better buy for the 210 points I would get back for one from each squad...
I like the list but is it competitive?
Thanks to all of you guys and keep up the GREAT work,
Dave
Hey Dave, glad you like the blog.
Overall I like the list, and it's very similar to my recently published hybrid list here. It's actually that so similar that this post is going to be short. The list is competitive. There's no doubting it, but is it optimised? What are the differences between the two lists?
You have a bit more protection for your troops, but have fewer numbers. I'd consider 3 units of 5 marines a little low at this level, especially as one unit will be coming in by pod. Mine are also better equipped and with AAC the marines should stick about a bit longer should they get assaulted.
You get 3 more typhoons, but no more target options. Not sure how I feel about this. It may seem a good thing at first, but it makes it more difficult for squadrons to get cover, so they don't necessarily withstand a great deal more fire. Six missiles into anything may also be considered overkill.
Abhor the Witch is a very reasonable choice and gives Templars some much needed psychic defence. I'd rather see some points taken from your speeder investment put into a psychic hood though to be honest. Without AAC the EC/Terminator bubble just won't be as effective.
I get an extra predator.
I was able to have a game with my exact list the other day and it did really quite well to be honest. My opponent made a few mistakes and had a tiny bit of misfortune, but it was a difficult match-up for the list (Vs drop BA) so I was more than happy with the victory.
Anyway, the only real advice is to continue giving your list some play-testing. There is seriously nothing that can beat it. Consider changing one speeder in each unit into some troops, but other than that, keep on testing.
All the best.
