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Friday, July 2, 2010

Email in: List help -1750 outflank marines

 
"Hi Kirby,
 
I have recently found your blog and am enjoying the tirades and information you are giving out.
 
Like everyone else over the last 2 days, I am chasing some list help. This is for QM3 up in Brissy. (If you are reading this Rob, Hi!)
 
I am looking at trying to build a 1750 null-deployment Vanilla Marines List based of Kor’sarro Khan for fun and (hopefully) profit.

My current lists run as: (1750)
Khan on foot (in LR)
Shooty Termies in Godhammer
3 tactical squads in rhinos (MM/Melta/PF, ML/flamer/PF, ML/Melta/PF)
Dread with TLAC/DCCW
Dakka Predator
2x Vindicators w/ dozer blades

The theory was to set up a hard castle to soften the enemy while the out flankers do their job and run riot in the backline.

It works GREAT against baby seals, but not so much against anything played well.

I am toying with putting Khan on a bike, and giving him a Bike Command Squad with Storm Shields and going down that path.
Also thinking of a foot command squad in a Razorback Stronos, or any number of other permutations.
 
I think the only way to successfully run an outflank army is to put a fire base down to annoy the oponent and draw attention.

I am open to suggestions, but unfortunately, the wife doesn’t think the bank account is, so I am fairly limited in the way of additions to this, but I am a capable convertor.
However, suggest what you like, I have a friend with boxes of old miniatures I can steal/borrow and use.

Minis I currently have:

Librarian
Black Reach Captain
2nd ed rhino: 4
New Rhino/Magnetised as Vindi: 2
Predator: 1 (LC turret / AC Turret, HB Spons)
Autocannon DCCW dread
4 bikes, 1 plasmagun bike, 1 chaplain on bike
Land Raider (Converted Arvus Lighter)
5 PF Terminator
1 PW Terminator
1 landspeeder
Tactical Marines:
Bolter x 38, Power Fist x 4, Power Weapon x 1, Chainsword x 1, ML x 2, MM x 1, Melta x 2, Flamer x 4, Lascannon x 2, Plasmacannon x 1, HB x 1, Plasmagun x 1

Oh, and some background for my playstyle: Ex-Ork player that runs/ran BW Blitz Lists (with Zogwart for random fun)
I am looking for something new and different to engage my WH40k mind, and a null-deployment army might fit the trick.
 
Anyway, any ideas that you can give me for a 1750 list that fits the bill would be great. I am happy to run something unconventional, and as I am an Aussie player, comp is a given in the tourney scene, so something that doesn’t look nasty, but has great synergy/is a little crazy and risky would be better than 6 dreads, 9 speeders and a dozen razorbacks in that regard.

Thanks in advance,
Matt"
 
Thanks for the e-mail Matt and glad you’re enjoying the blog and content. You’ve given me a tough proposal though! Very much a battle force army so hard to make something cohesive out of it hightlighted by this quote from Matt: "It works GREAT against baby seals, but not so much against anything played well." Luckily you’re playing via Australian comp (did I just say luckily…) so, I think with some changes we should be good. Now I know the wife doesn’t want you to access the bank account, but one or two purchases (I really recommend Wayland for Australian buyers, it’s basically 40-50% off from Australian prices or GamingDragon if you prefer local) could really help you build a list. Before we get onto my suggestions though, let’s discuss outflanking.
 
Outflanking is an okay concept for a couple of units only but on an army wide basis, really falls through. With outflanking you are forced to come in on a table edge which means your opponent is capable of blocking off said table edges with tanks or infantry meaning he dictates where you come in or can completely stop you from coming in. This is even before you've rolled for your side which means 33% of your army is turning up on the wrong side as your opponent refuse flanks you. Why does this then work for just a couple units? A significant portion of your army is still going to be in one area (midfield) so a unit or two ending up on the wrong side doesn't spell your doom (unless it's a 500+ pt unit) and for most armies it's generally not always feasible to block off a short table edge for just a couple units. 
 
So, what I want to suggest is changing from the Vanilla dex to the BT one and buy another box of Terminators. Here your shooty terms can be very effective w/2x assault cannon and tank hunters and you can get some decently effective Troops out of Crusader squads. Backed up by a couple of Speeders, Dreads or Preds and you'll have a decently balanced shooty force with a so-so assault core from your Troops. Would you be up for this at all? Or would you like me to stick to the Vanilla codex and what you have, and see if we can work something out?
 

11 pinkments:

fester said...

Hi Kirby,

Thanks for quick reply!

SM / BT ... hmmm, Can I ask for option 3 - both :D
I probably would prefer playing the null-deployment game, and risking getting ass-raped, than playing something stupid hard and getting comp-raped. As it is, running 4 HS choices (LR, vindi x2, pred) I get comp-stomped.

I would have to acquire the BT dex but hey, more reading :) I'm sure a mate has one I can borrow for a while.

As for spending money, I can probably find about $50 to throw at the army, as long as I dont tell the wife!

Oh, and as for it being Battleforce army, I know. Most of the stuff I have picked up as '... and some marines' for my Orks, and decided to give them a run this Tourney Season.
I am having the damndest time writing something with synergy! That would explain why :)

Thanks,
Matt.

Kirby said...

Comp is stupid ^^.

I think with BT you could get a decent force out of 10 shooty termies with support stuck around them. It won't be a great list and the Termies will drag the comp to a 3/5 prob, but you won't roll over and die in games either. I don't have the BT dex on me atm (at the missus') but maybe Vinsanity or BroLo (they love BT) can put up a list involving what you have available and some Terminators.

If not then I'll write one up when I get home from work (either 1am tonight or when I wake up Saturday). The reason why you're having problem with synergy is the battleforce nature, you've got what everyone thinks is "balance" by having lots of different units covering different roles but a savy opponent is going to pick apart what is most dangerous to him and crush you like the baby seal :P.

fester said...

Comp has its place. I know I am in the crazy minority saying that, but I do beleive it.
Comp just is never done well, that's all.

Tonight/Tomorrow? I am happy to wait a day or 4, it's no biggy to me. The tourney is about 5 weeks away, and I have no problems painting minis fast to my table-top standard.

I would really like a happy C:SM Outflank list, but I think that Stelek's take on biker-horder Marines might be one of the few ways to make it work. Shame, I wanted my marines to be 'a little different'.
I suppose, I could always run 60 marines in rhinos + Khan. That would be different. Shitty different, but different all the same.

Thanks mate, now go spend time with your Missus.
Having one of my own, I know they get cranky about all that warhammery business.
fester.

AbusePuppy said...

What, in your opinion, is comp doing wrong, fester? This is a discussion I've seen a lot of times before, but I've never heard and argument that really swayed me into thinking comp had a good place in 40K. Sportsmanship should be handled as a penalty (game loss for being a cheater, etc) or as a separate prize, because otherwise it's easy to abuse (opponent won? rate them 0) or be meaninglessly unbalanced (one guy rates everyone, somehow his friends always score better than everyone else).

Kirby said...

In regards to comp, it does have it's place as a "leveler" of the playing field but unforunately it rarely does. Pay attention to Taak's upcoming posts on it though :), I've given him free reign to talk about it to catering to the 'comp' crowd as I am pretty blanket against it.

No time with missus on Friday's :(, she works normal 9-5 whilst I do part-time night shifts whilst working on my thesis. Gotta pay those bills (and 40k addictions =D). If you wanted to run lots of Marines in Rhinos I'd again go for BT (preferred enemy FTW) or BA where you can get FNP/FC bubbles of lol. If you still wanted to go with Vanilla book I'd go with Marneus or Pedro to try and take advantage of the Marines statline as much as possible which Khan doesn't really do I'm afraid.

fester said...

Puppy: pretty much what Kirby said. I feel that if someone wins 3/5 games with a shitty 'crons list then he probably is a better player than the BA guy with 5 LR @ 1750, and his overall score should reflect this.

I know that really, annoying I say about comp' has been said 1000 times before.

Kirby, a friend has loaned me the BA dex and I am checking it out this weekend. My landraider is a converted Arvus lighter and I have gotten OK from the TO to run it as a stormraven if I like :)


A mate and I are looking at bitz ordering CC arms and converting a tac squad or 2 to assault marines. We shall see how that goes :)

Kirby said...

Okie dokie, keep me informed!

fester said...

This is what I have come up with.
I was going to run Seth instead of the Libby for a HQ, but not sure on getting the model.

Librarian (epistolary), Shield, Blood Lance
Librarian Dread, Shield, Blood Boil (for the lols), Frag Cannon
Sangy Priest.
Baal Predator (Autocannon, HB)
10 Assault Marines, Melta x 2, PW, Rhino
10 Assault Marines, Flamer x 2, PW, Rhino
10 Tactical Marines, ML, Fl, PW, Razorback (flamer)
StormRaven Gunship, MM, Autocannon, Hurricane Bolters (ARVUS IS OK FOR THIS YAY!)
Vindicator
Vindicator

Plan:
1. Libby, Priest and 1 Assault squad go in StormRaven, Dread tags along
2. The squad will be decided base on opponent - where 2 meltas or 2 flamers is better.
3. Tac's split, 5 to empty Rhino, 5 in Razorback.
4. ???
5. Profit.

Kirby said...

That looks like a good list though no need for Epistolary for the Libby (you cast shield in your opponent's shooting phase anyway).

fester said...

Would it be worth swapping the HQ libby for a Captain or Reclusiarch for some more CC ability ?

Then I would move Blood lance to the Dread obviously.

Kirby said...

Nope, muliple libbies are good. BTW, powers on Libby Dread need changing. Blood Lance is good as well as Might of Heroes + Wings. I'd pick 2 of those 3.

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