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Wednesday, July 28, 2010

A Heuristic Analysis of Trend-Maximal Orcinian Militant Formations With Regards to Non-Interactive Communication Behavior

Or "Why Orks Are Bad, Despite What the Internet Thinks."


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So following on the heels of my last article, let's transition to something much, much more specific: Orks. Specifically, are Orks a good army? Do they have strong builds, and can they be said to be competitive in 5th Edition? There are some rather strong opinions on both sides of this- the Ork Defense Force articles as well as Stelek's article on the subject are both fairly well-written, if rather adamant in their respective positions. So why is there such a huge divide on the subject?

To find the answer, I'll point back to my previous article on levels of play (and in doing so explain why I had to write that article first, you see.) Orks are an amazing army in low-level play- their raw numbers are fantastic, easily trumping most other armies. Their fast transports, powerful hammer units, and easy learning curve mean that even a relatively new player can expect to do pretty okay with an Ork army; in truth, few of the units in their codex are genuinely bad, although as we'll explain later they all suffer from their own problems. In the context of a low-level player/game, however, Orks are a very strong army.


As the game shifts into mid-level play, Orks don't look quite so overwhelming. The preponderance of vehicles in the 5E metagame means that they have issues to deal with, albeit ones that are certainly handleable. Blocking, multi-charges, etc are all mid-level tactics that Orks can take good advantage of and a properly-constructed Ork army can offer up some difficult target priority choices. At this tier, Orks seem like a fairly balanced (in the sense of "fair," not in the sense of "balanced army") force to bring to the table.

In high-level play, however, is where the problems crop up. Orks have very poor redundancy in several key areas, most notably tank-killing and heavy infantry killing. They do not have good strategic flexibility and cannot easily adapt to an opponent's plan in the same way that some other armies can; furthermore, they have no good counters to many of the strong top-tier plays and units and are stuck looking to less-efficient answers, putting them at an innate disadvantage.

Note that this does not mean that Orks, as an army, take less skill to play (they don't) or reward a general less for being skilled at low- or mid-level play. Rather, they punish lack of skill less, primarily through their ability to soak casualties to little effect and to have multirole units that can perform several needed tasks. They are reasonably robust at these levels of play and can have their builds and playstyles taken in several different directions without losing any of the fundamental strengths of the army; to contrast, a "finesse" army like Tau or Eldar is heavily reliant on key strategic and tactical decisions and very specific builds and setups- without these, they simply collapse into a worthless pile of fragile, expensive units.
Why Do I Think Orks Are So Bad?

Let's look at this in a bit more detail. First we should ask ourselves "What does 5th Edition favor/require?" and then look at how Orks deal with each of these problems, which I think will be enlightening as to why I think they are lacking. First and foremost is anti-tank capabilities. All 5E armies must have the ability to deal with enemy vehicles, and do so quickly, efficiently, and with good redundancy such that even if one unit fails in its task (misses, rolls poorly on the chart, is killed, etc) others can take its place. Secondly, armies need to be mobile in order to take objectives, benefit from cover (or deny it to the enemy), maneuver to bring their army to bear, etc. The latter is very key to Orks, as their large numbers tend to make them more unwieldy than their competitors. Thirdly, the ability to deal with an enemy's Big Plan, whatever it may be. Good armies have a counter to any plan or gimmick the enemy fields, ideally disrupting their overall strategy as part of defeating them. This might also be termed flexibility, but it's more than just that- it's having the availability of counters in your codex, not just your ability to respond to an enemy's plan. Lastly, we need to look at how the major changes of 5E's ruleset and metagame affect the codex in particular and what this means for Orks.
Part the First: Anti-Tank

5E has variously been called Tankhammer, the Transport Game, etc, etc, but the simple truth is that vehicles are good again and sheltering your fragile soldiers with steel has become a very good policy. All armies have had to adapt to this- some better than others- but Orks take their place alongside Tyranids and Daemonhunters for being unusually lacking in this department. On the other hand, many proponents of the Ork army scoff at this, pointing out that they have Rokkits and Klaws in abundance as well as Lootas and other shooting. Obviously, being that I am writing this article, you know which side I am on, but I would like to take a closer look at the failures of each of the methods in the Ork codex to deal with AVs.

Lootas are the first unit that generally gets brought up, and with good reason- they genuinely are some of the strongest light anti-armor available, even measuring up against such greats as Crisis suits and IG Autocannon spam. For a reasonable point cost each, they get a random (but often high) number of anti-transport shots with excellent range. What could be considered bad about that? They make a perfect unit to stick in the backfield and threaten Rhinos and Chimeras, it's true. The main problem with them is a very simple one: no single unit is perfect. Lootas are great at what they do, but what they do does not cover everything and they can't possibly fill an army's needs by themselves. They can't realistically hurt battle tanks (like Predators and Leman Russes), are completely static (meaning they are vulnerable to being disrupted by assaulters and can be outmaneuvered), and will sometimes simply take some damage and simply run off the table (inflicting ~5 wounds on them, a few more if it's a full squad, will generally send them scurrying away in short order- and T4 with 4+ cover it's not hard to wear down). Even ignoring the weaknesses of the unit (which, realistically, every unit has- Lootas are not at all poor in this respect), the real failing is that the limited amount of AT available in the codex means that Lootas become an obvious target for enemy firepower- once they are dead, the opponent can be reasonably sure that his tanks will be able to survive the remainder of the game. Redundancy is key in any list to avoid having a single weak link that can be shattered to cripple the army.

Rokkits are another option, and here the issue is different: Ork BS is low, so paying for a (comparatively) expensive shot that usually misses is a poor option. The platforms it is available on are also problematic. Rokkit Buggies and Coptas are both perfectly reasonable choices, but extremely fragile. Deffcoptas are low-Leadership units in small squads and often run off the table at the slightest provocation; additionally, they are vulnerable to simply being shot with Bolters or other such guns. Buggies are much better in this regard, but as AV10 open-topped vehicles, their survivability is often rather limited as well. (Twin-linked helps them out as well, but you are still paying ~80pts for roughly one S8 hit, taken up to three times; to compare, Hive Guard are ~30pts per such hit and you can get twice as many effective shots by filling your appropriate slot.) Rokkits in mobs of Boyz suffer a dilemma of their own: only one per ten in the mob means that smaller mobs (such as those fitting in a Trukk) have no realistic chance to hurt an enemy vehicle. Large mobs, on the other hand, are forced to go on foot at which point the 24" range becomes a real limitation due to the slow speed of foot units. (Yes, I know, the Run rule- mech still outmoves you easily.) Boyz riding in a Battlewagon seems ideal, and is in some ways, but you have a very limited availability of such units (generally 2-3), putting a real dampener on such plans. Killa Kans are the last option and have the bonus of BS3. However, they fight for space with the Battlewagons (and thus fail to solve the Orks' redundancy issues) and are not a terribly effective unit, all things considered (mediocre protection, suffers from squadron rules, 50pts/model for one shot). All in all, Rokkits simply lack any really outstanding choices for Orks and fight with many other options.

Power Klaws are the third big item of note. They are abundantly available in the codex, with practically every unit being able to take one at a quite reasonable (or, in some cases, wonderfully cheap) cost. We will also roll in the DCCWs and similar weapons, since their differences are negligible for the purposes of this discussion. The nature of 5E melee combat against vehicles is the big issue here- yes, you always hit rear armor, which is excellent, but an intelligent opponent will insure that his vehicles are moving 7"+ against you, so you are not hitting very often- and will only one Klaw in most squads, you are going to spend a lot of time whiffing. The issues here are more strategic- as any Tyranid player knows, relying on CC for your anti-tank needs is a gamble at best, as many mech armies will devastate you in the 1-2 turns before you can manage to get stuck in against them. Furthermore, even assuming you DO get there, you have conveniently clumped yourself up against his hull, ready to be flamed/blasted to death on his turn after he drives away.

Tankbustas are sometimes cited as an example of Ork AT. I have no idea why. They are BS2 and 24" range, and thus suffering most of the problems of other Rokkit platforms, but have to fight with Lootas for space, are 15 pts/model for an extremely fragile unit (remember, that's Space Marine prices on a 6+ save unit; Vespid, anyone?) and they have a special rule limiting their shooting. Oh, and they don't have a transport available to them, so you have to shove them into a Battlewagon if you want them to actually be able to get any shots off- at which point they are stealing TWO sources of other AT for you (the Elites slot for Lootas, the BW for holding some Boyz), which is not a good plan. The various other shoddy forms of AT in the codex (Big Gunz, SAG, Boomgun, etc) are all so bad that I don't think I even need to explain why they aren't worth considering.

Thus, what we are left with is the following: Ork AT comes in three forms. Lootas, which are good (but can't pull all the weight themselves, and suffer against high AVs). Klaws, which are fine against suppressed vehicles (but Orks have little suppression) and excaberate your vulnerability to blasts and templates as well as having poor strategic value. Rokkits, which have issues with all of their platforms either being sub-par or fighting with each other for space and netting comparatively few hits. In smaller games, and in games where there are fewer vehicles on the table, these problems are mitigateable. However, as one ascends to the top end of the game (or to high points values), more and more they become real issues that Orks simply have no way around. The fact that they also do not have any melta- meaning no AP1 and no double-pen, both of which are huge hindrances in reliably getting rid of particular vehicles when you absolutely have to (like when it's contesting your objective, etc)- is a major blow on top of non-ignorable issues already. Tyranids, at least, have the super-efficient Hive Guard, the survivable T-Fex, mobile Harpies, and ways to kill heavy tanks with MC attacks (rerolls to hit and 2d6 pen being very different from Klaws) and Warp Lance, on top of their miscellaneous suppression tools and Rending attacks. Orks do not have any of these things. They have other advantages, but in terms of killing tanks, Tyranids are clearly ahead of Orks- and they have superior CC and mobility as well.

Part the Second: Transports and Mobility

One of the reasons for the extensive use of vehicles in 5E, of course, is the mobility they provide, and this lack of mobility compared to other armies is a second major issue with the Ork codex. Ork armies come in two major styles: Green Tide and Speed Freaks. Green Tide hardly even needs to be discussed in terms of mobility: it doesn't have any. Its large number of models and space required for them make it incredibly unwieldy and, combined with the short range on most Ork guns, it becomes a simple matter to chop it apart piecemeal. Speed Freaks are the Ork lists using (generally) Trukks and Battlewagons; Warbuggies and Bikes are also common, but they aren't really relevant to this part of the discussion, as all-bike armies are not really feasible for Orks and Nob Bikerz are a discussion all their own. (Suffice to say that you are not likely to control multiple objectives with them.) So instead we will look to the two dedicated transports available to Orks and how they fit into the game.

The first thing to note is that they are both Open-Topped vehicles. This is necessary in some ways, as Orks really need to be assaulting out of their transports and their shooting comes in numbers, not quality, so Fire Points are all but worthless to them. There is a big downside to Open-Topped, however: it makes you much more fragile. Vehicle's greatest asset in 5E is the damage table, which forces one more roll beyond what most units get in order to do anything to them, and even a penetrating hit is only 1/3 likely to kill. This is part of why Melta is so good- you raise your kill percentage to 50% and can destroy even on a glance. Well, all weapons are Melta when they're shooting Orks, and Melta is 66% likely to kill them after penetrating (and is guaranteed to at least strip a gun or immobilize). Combine this with the comparatively low armor values of Ork vehicles and their transports start to look very, very fragile. Yes, they have the Kustom Force Field to help mitigate this, but other mech armies generally have access to cover saves of their own (be it from going Flat Out, Smoke Launchers, psychic powers, or the universal save from Disruption Pods), so this is not an advantage they have- it is merely keeping up with the Joneses.

The second problem is that Trukks are not reliable the same way other vehicles are. Even once wrecked, Chimeras and Rhinos often provide excellent terrain to hide behind, as it's not hard to form strategic walls with them. Trukks cannot hope to do this- their Ramshackle rule not only bounces them about the table randomly, it also (under most interpretations) does not leave a wreck behind afterwords, thus denying them the benefit against other shooting for the turn. As Trukks are the only dedicated transport available to units other than Nobz, this means that Orks cannot reliably create cover saves for their vehicles outside of the KFF, and anytime your army has a linchpin that can be broken, you are asking for trouble.

The third issue is also specific to Trukks: they carry twelve models. When you are talking about Space Marines, this is plenty; when it comes to Guardsmen, that is also a fine number, since eight of the squad members are just wound markers anyways. But for Orks, who rely on superior numbers to overhwelm opponents, this is a problem. Squads of Boyz in Trukks do not have the numbers to soak up casualties during an assault- losing 5-8 members will severely hurt a squad, possibly causing them to lose combat, at which point their poor Leadership (as Mob Rule no longer helps) and Initiative virtually guarantee that they will be wiped out. Now, for a squad of twenty or so Boyz, this is not an issue- they can afford to take some casualties from shooting, exploding transports, assaulting, etc, and shrug it all off. So long as those last ten or so Boyz (and Nob) get to swing, they will probably win the fight- Orks on the charge can do a ridiculous amount of damage if they have any significant numbers. This is where our issues with the Ork army start to coalesce, however: those same Battlewagons that you need to carry your large squads of Boyz into the fight are also needed to carry your anti-tank and to function as AT themselves (via Deff Rollas), not to mention carrying harder units like Nobz. So our poor, benighted Battlewagon- which the Ork army only has access to 3-4, in most cases- is stuck trying to do quadruple duty for the army, and that's a no-go.

Transports are also valuable to other armies because they allow not only speedy delivery of units to where they need to be, but also protection against incoming fire and assaults while they are getting there. Ork transports... do not offer this advantage. A Rhino makes the unit it carries immune to being shot by Bolters; a Trukk does not, because the Trukk itself can die to Bolters and other light weapons fire. Battlewagons are immune to this issue, but they are not available in great enough numbers to solve the Orks' problems here. This is why mechanized Orks are a failure compared to other, even older, codices; unlike, say, the Tau Devilfish, a Trukk does not function the same way that other transports do. Orks are too different- and their needs and rules too different- to have a shoddy, overpriced knockoff of other people's vehicles work for them. (Remember, Rhinos cost as much as a Trukk and have none of these issues; BA Rhinos are only 15pts more and are just as fast with an effectively larger carry capacity.)

Part the Third: The Art of War

While certain sites may overestimate its applicability to the game, Sun Tzu's classic book on warfare can actually be summed up into one very useful point: never let the enemy fight the way he wants to. If someone brings a static gunline to the table, your first priorities should be forcing assaults and movement on him, because he is poorly-equipped to handle these tasks.

This is where the inability to stop AV14 starts to come back to haunt Orks. One of the strongest "rock" armies in the game, using a Land Raider to deliver TH/SS Termies and backing it with strong shooting support or other assault elements, simply takes them to pieces. Both of the common Raider variants (Crusader, Redeemer) will cause extensive damage to the Ork forces on their own and the contents are all but untouchable- the Hammers in the squad will make short work of Nob Bikers and Lightning Claws combined with No Retreat will inflict pretty horrific casualties to large mobs of Boyz, already weakened from the Raider's shooting. Since they have no meaningful ways of threatening it with shooting- even Rokkits are a slim chance at best- Orks are forced to send in units to assault it (exactly what the Terminators want) or to try and block it (which they have few options for, since Trukks can't be expected to do so thanks to Ramshackle). Deff Rollas can wreck them with reasonable consistency, but they do so only by putting themselves right in the heart of the enemy formation, meaning either the unit they carried dies to the Terminators (bad) or they are running empty (also bad).

But that's only a single army. How do Orks fare against other major strategies? Another popular example might be the Alpha Strike army, which intends to shoot the enemy right off the table early on and never look back. Many armies deal with this by either using a refused flank (awkward for Orks because of the large footprint of their army) or by holding in reserve (also a poor choice because Orks have no reserve manipulation and aren't mobile enough to rush in from off-table- they're fast, but not that fast.) So we have another major strategic failure, as this sort of army is almost perfectly poised to annihilate Orks with its plethora of high-strength ordnance and other powerful shooting. Over and over again, looking at any given army's major stragegy, the Orks' only real counter to it is "get stuck in, kill them all." Now, this in and of itself is not a fatal flaw- indeed, it's the fundament of most hammer armies- but it is a major weakness that, combined with their other flaws, starts to push the army towards unplayability in high-level matches.

Part the Fourth: Specific Rules and Meta

Now we will look at some other, more specific ways that Orks suffer in the 5E metagame. There are many changes that were brought on by the new ruleset, and not all of them were good. In fact, some of them were downright crippling to Orks, while others are merely a hindrance.

Changes to weapon usabilities mean that both Melta and flamer weapons are much, much more common than they were before. Melta we have already covered in the vehicles discussion above, but flamers are also worth specifically picking out. They are- and always have been- a very good weapon against Orks, who are among their most stereotypical targets. However, with the advent of 5E, they became effective enough against other targets to warrant inclusion in most people's take-all-comers lists, rather than being a specialist weapon that was more rarely used. For Orks, this means they had to expect that most types of armies would bring much more effective firepower against them, and that crossing that final ~12" gap would be a real difficulty.

Another big strike were the changes to the No Retreat! rule and combat resolution in general. Although it sometimes helps them (forcing the enemy to make impossible Ld checks due to casualties), it is not uncommon for Orks to lose a combat against a competent enemy force- at which point the tide begins to turn very quickly indeed, as the end-of-combat wounds quickly stack up and chew away at the Orks only advantage, numbers. Other armies (like Tyranids) also have to deal with this, but generally have ways of mitigating it or working around it (Catalyst, leaving Synapse, etc.) Orks are stuck with it, and it is a tool easily used against them by smart opponents.

Several of the recent army releases have put Orks in a bad position as well- Imperial Guard can bring vehicles in large numbers and tend to wield pie plates and flamers with impunity, as noted earlier. Tyranids have greatly superior combat ability on nearly all fronts and can often muster superior shooting as well, as their guns can't be shut down with a damage roll. Blood Angels and Space Wolves are both CC-focused MEQ forces that have many of the advantages expected of Marines, but also have the melee strength to chew up mobs of Orks once they have been softened up a bit- or sometimes simply dive straight in for the kill. With all of these armies being popular "new" choices (used loosely, as some are half a year or more old at this point), they are a common sight at tournaments and ones that makes most Ork armies worry about their prospects.

Summary Part: Good Lord, Wasn't That Enough Text?

Please understand that, despite all of this, I do not think Orks are a terrible army for most people. They are pretty much strictly better than Necrons and any kind of pure Daemonhunters force. They scale better than Dark Eldar and they bring a reasonably unique playstyle to the table that some opponents may not be ready for. And, as discussed far back in the misty depths when this article began, they can do quite well at low- and mid-tier play. For casual players and beginners, for hobbyists and converters, for those who like goofy backstory and great visuals, Orks are a fantastic army. For the competitive player who wants to excel at the game and make the most out of a powerful and flexible army, however, they are a very poor choice, and they are not "broken," "overpowered," "cheesy/beardy," or any of the other adjectives the internet ascribes to their allegedly-strong lists. They are an army with major limitations and one that suffers greatly because of this. I do not doubt that many of you have played nail-bitingly close games against Orks: this does not change the fact that they are a poor army. A good general can make a sub-par force perform at surprising levels, so if you are winning with Orks, please do not take this article as an insult to your favored army or your opponents, but rather as a compliment.

Comments, criticism, and cross-linked counterpoints (as well as any other alliteration anyone aroundabouts adamantly advises) are quite welcome. If you believe you have created a good, take-all-comers Ork army that sidesteps the problems outlined above, I would be interested to see it. Please note that "I win with it" is an insufficient support of your thesis, as explained in the above paragraph.

92 pinkments:

Chumbalaya said...

{^}

Kuolema said...

Very nice article, I think you are spot on.
But could you of used any more big words in there? lol

CreativeName said...

Deffrolla? Is that not an anti- tank weapon worth mentioning in the anti-tank section? Maybe I missed it.

Smurfy said...

Deff Rolla should be mentioned, but in practice - The Wagon(s) dies before it gets a chance to wreck a incredible amount of havoc with it.

Or are Open-Topped AV 12 (If you're assuming 14, please check your model's limo status again, thank you.) somehow crossing the board in one piece everywhere you Ork players play?

Nathan said...

Well, I really couldn't disagree more; but, I've made my positions abundantly clear! :)

I play neither green tide nor speed freaks; but a balanced mix of elements. I find my army extremely adaptable and capable of dealing with many issues.

I'll agree that Orks are easy to learn to use adequately; but I think that if you learn to play with them better I think they really shine. I'd say that they are like the Protoss of 40k. Easy to be decent with, very hard to master.

One thing I really want to key in on though,I heartily disagree that Orks aren't as good as 'Nids in combat. Point for point there is little in the 'Nid 'dex that even registers as scary on my radar.

-fluger

Smurfy said...

So you have your forces coming in waves?

Koptas the scouting wave
2/3 Battlewagons/Nob Bikes frontlines
2 Ork Mobs of boyz withs Big Shootas/Rokkits and maybe a mob of tankbustas second wave
Lootas/Kannons in the back?

Please explain how Orks work differently with a mixed army, and where one has halved it's forces for me is a GOOD thing for the Ork army?

Smurfy said...

Actually I feel this is gonna be another trolling scheme, since none of the Ork supporters have a blog of their own to show battle reports/tactica/etc.

Nathan said...

My list is here:

http://bloodofkittens.com/2010/03/18/a-legendary-tshft-tournament-experience/

My list doesn't normally come in waves; in fact, I try and make sure I'm bringing the most threat at the same time usually.

My strategy is fairly straightforward in most situations: central board control. I'll mix it up dependant on opponent/terrain/mission; but it works most of the time.

-fluger

Nathan said...

Errr...smurfy... I write the Ork Defense Force on Blood of Kittens.

-fluger

Chumbalaya said...

http://bloodofkittens.com/2010/03/18/a-legendary-tshft-tournament-experience/

...

Ew.

Nathan said...

OK...

-fluger

AbusePuppy said...

@Nathan
The problem with your "balanced" force is that it _does_ come in distinct waves, unless you want to give up the advantage of your faster units (Trukks, etc). For an enemy shooting army, you present extremely easy target priority choices: kill the Buggies and Lootas (your only good anti-tank), then the Stormboyz and Trukks (your only "fast" units), then pick apart the remainder of your force at their leisure, since you have no real way to apply pressure beyond that point. Depending on the army, keeping the Battlewagon shaken may or may not be a priority.

Yes, you will have a good midfield presence, but you have absolutely no fire support to make it threatening no mobility to keep the enemy from picking your squads apart one by one. Five AV10 vehicles in an otherwise-infantry list are simply asking to eat all of your opponent's S6+ shooting; the army has major schizophrenia when it comes to what it wants to do.

Point for point, yes, Orks are probably the best combat army in the game. As I explained in the article, this does not work out because you can't effectively bring your force to bear, whereas Tyranids will find it much easier to concentrate their strength against you and wipe out portions of your army. The Trukk squads will have their rides shot out from under them (Hive Guard say hi!) and assaulted by Gaunts- oh, did I say Gaunts? I mean Toxic Furious Catalyzed Gaunts, and ten of them will kill seven Orks before they have a chance to swing, not even mention the pre-assault shooting. And before you say "I have shooting, too!" what you _don't_ have is the ability to create units when and where you want them, not do you have the speed to run and shoot in the same turn. You will kill some Gaunt squads with charges (and countercharges) of your own, but the Tyranid responses will wipe out nearly any unit you bring to bear with them. They have large blasts and high-volume shooting in abundance, whereas you are hard-pressed to deal any wounds to them without using a Power Klaw.

I would fully expect to see all of your fast elements wiped out as your establish control of the central board. Around turn 3-4 the main Tyranid elements would arrive and begin their assaults on your positions, which would be pretty devastating. That is a 1750 list, if I read it right? You can expect to weather ~5 pie plates, ~2 templates and miscellaneous subsidary shooting each turn before they assault, which should inflict enough wounds that your Nob is not going to get a chance to do his work before dying.

You do make some very salient points in your articles- they, and the discussion they spawned- were a significant part of why I wrote this article. You do have some improvements to the Ork army that work, but I don't think they are enough to actually make them "good" in the strongest sense of the word. Your army _does_ come in waves, or you ignore your speedier units advantages, and you have very little anti-tank shooting for a list of that number of points. You have a grand total of 11 Rokkits (five of them are effectively BS3; the other six are unlikely to be able to reach targets if the enemy doesn't want them to, so call if eight "good" shots) and one squad of Lootas, plus a Killkannon. That... that's it. That's practically NOTHING against a good mech list- you can only realistically expect to destroy perhaps two vehicles per turn even if they don't kill anything you have.

Nathan said...

I'll just say that I've won the last two TSHFT Best General awards with that list against a variety of armies. Perhaps I'm a superlative general and just wreck face; but I don't think so. I'm, at best, a good general; but in a lot of games against more crafty foes; the army does the heavy lifting, not tactics.

In regards to coming in waves, notice I almost ALWAYS put my fast units in reserve so they come out later around the same time my mobz are getting closer. I learned that trick from Koyote, and he's definitely a better player than I am.

I'm not sure how you think the rokkits won't be in range of things. At the minimum, after 12" of walking and one run move, I should be in range of most stuff with my rokkits.

Against mech I just move at them and take them out in combat eventually. I'm not saying I auto-win each game; but I think you are sorely underestimating the power of massed S4 attacks vs AV10. If its a shooty mech force like IG, they are going to be immobile for the most part (outside of units moving up to block) which makes them easier to destroy; or else they are moving around and not shooting as much.

As far as redundancy, there's literally not a single unit in my army that can't do some kind of damage to a rhino or chimera chassis (obviously some can do it better than others...).

In regards to the Nid statement, it's an 1850 list; and I've played against Nids enough times to know what they can do. Again, my speed elements are not on the board to start and show up around turn 2 and 3 to support the central forces. My shoota boyz are dishing out tons of damage at range and still are a threat in melee against most parts. My Orks outshoot most forces that aren't IG.

I'm not saying my list is the end-all/be-all of armies; it simply has the tools necessary to win in a variety of ways.

Anyway, heading home, I'll check back in tomorrow.

Cobbles said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Smurfy said...

"At the minimum, after 12" of walking and one run move, I should be in range of most stuff with my rokkits."

And this is assuming the enemy is always gonna be directly across from you with every rokkit unit you have? Is this realistic thinking?


"But I think you are sorely underestimating the power of massed S4 attacks vs AV10"

If all the 30 Boyz cross the table in a mob -

120 attacks @ 6's to hit.

20 hit @ 6's to Glance.

3 glances. That's averages. I'm assuming 6's to hit because you'll be hitting a Rhino/Land Speeder, not a Predator if the person is smart.

"If its a shooty mech force like IG, they are going to be immobile for the most part (outside of units moving up to block) which makes them easier to destroy"

What Mech Guard are YOU playing against? One without the sense to use a Chimera right in front of the Leman Russes/main battle line tanks and absorb a charge? What the Leman Russes went toward you with their 72" ranged gun?

Smurfy said...

That is to say - Mech Guard does move, can move, and will move if it needs to.

Lumbering Behemoth rule makes this possible.

Kuolema said...

tournaments don't really mean that much. Take one look at how many people attended the tournament and then one look at how many people play 40k.

One turn of shooting is not worth getting auto hit in close combat. Also if you use your nobs claw and the vehicle explodes, well yeah you get the point.

Also if a marine or IG player throws an empty rhino/chim or two at you and you assault them. Well you just ended up in please-template-me-formation.
Nearly every marine/guard list makes flamers or blasts that will wipe your boys out and all they did was kill a transport.

Kuolema said...

Also, blood of kittens? What sick freak names a blog something like that? Just fucking wrong!

Thud said...

Blood of Kittens? Never mind Blood of Kittens! Who the hell names a blog "3++ is the new black" is the real question. Everyone knows Thud is clearly the new black!

Buncha noobs!

Kirby said...

And covers it inpink! He's clearly got issues and needs to see a psychologist!

...

oh wait, I am a psychologist dating acounsellor! Awkward...

Anyway, good article Puppy. Would like to see a follow-up on some of the moreglossed over aspects of the Ork outlook but a solid post. Now if only we could somehow convince Ork players...

Kuolema said...

lol You can delete it if you want kirbs i know you don't really like swearing on your site. The name of the site just irks me a little.

Anyways, went to look at the ork list. It made me sad. =[

~Big Mek with Kustom Force Field
Decent HQ choice, but 4+ cover save only goes so far on ork infantry(you still die to flamers) and you don't really have enough vehicles to get good use out of it.

~15 Lootas
One loota unit =[, could of at least made them 3 units of 5. Means you can shoot more than one transport a turn and means your opponent has to deal with 3 units instead of 1. Being in a unit of 15 doesn't keep them safe from running off the table if your opponent wants them too.

~30 shoota boyz with 3 rokkits and a Nob with power klaw X2
While not bad, they just don't do that much, sure they can threaten infantry and kill tanks in low or mid tier play. But when people start using units to block your movement or make you move into template me formation, they just die. Two squads of orks on foot don't scare anyone.

12 slugga boyz wtih Nob with power klaw, boss pole, in a trukk with reinforced ram X2

So this are the boyz you keep in reserve? eh why? 12 boyz and a nob don't scare anyone. You only have two so dropping the trucks is way to easy and if you lose half your squad to shooting you pretty much always just run away.
Btw keeping them in reserve doesn't mess with your opponents target priority.
The stuff on the board gets shot first, trucks are killed when they come on, which you don't even know when they might be since you have no way to increase your reserve rolls.

~10 Gretchin and their minder
Cheap objective sitters than can also be put behind your lootas so they don't run off the table? Can't really say anything bad about that, but they don't make orks good.

~15 Stormboyz with Nob with power klaw and boss pole
Like the truck boyz but no truck, lose half your mob to rapid fire bolters and run away? Sounds like fun.
Btw you keep these in reserve or on the table?

~2 Rokkit Buggies
Yay for buggies, oh wait you only have two? well that isn't hard to kill and doesn't really scare tanks. Sure you can stun tanks so your nobz can kill them, if your nobz live long enough to get their.

~1 Battlewagon with killkannon, 3 big shootas, reinforced ram, and ‘ard case.
lol guess what draws all long ranged anti tank first turn.

~3 Killa Kans with rokkits
Ok 9 kans with a KFF can be tricky to kill, 3 is just an annoyance.

~3 Lobbas with 2 ammo runts
kannons > lobbas


So all your speedy stuff starts in reserve aye? and you think that solves your waves issue? Lets look at what starts on the table

Bigmek
3 kans
60 shoota boyz
15 lootas
1 killkannon wagon
bunch of grots

So like half your army? you get on average a 1/4 of your army on turn 2, the rest shows up turn 3/4.
Hmm how was your army not coming on in waves again??

Meister_Kai said...

As I theory-hammer away, listening to and watching my local players, people on this blog, people on other blogs, I see a somewhat alarming theme begin to arise.

I saw it all the time in Magic, and I am honestly not surprised I see it here honestly (there are many, MANY similarities between 40K and Magic).

What I'm talking about is the "you just don't get it" phenomenon.

It starts when someone says something like "well I'm right because of this and you're wrong". Then someone points out a bunch of reasons why that person is NOT right, to which the first person simply says something like "I've been playing longer so I know", or "I've won such and such tournament". This doesn't happen much in Magic anymore because the tournament structure and what is good and bad is so well defined, even amongst casual players (aka the silent majority, the complete opposite of 40K). I take responses such as "because I know" to be incredibly offensive as I feel it grants the sayer an unwarranted ego/skill/whatever boost.

Something to think about I guess...

Nathan said...

Hmmm, lots to answer.

@smurfy: Those are shoota boyz, so they only have 3 attacks on the charge, so a max of 87 attacks if they are unscathed and all are in range. Of course, you're assuming I'm charging a vehicle that moved over 6" as well.

Most vehicles that move over 6" I'm not concerned with since they won't be shooting.

Here's a bat rep from the March 2010 TSHFT that I also won Best General for. This is a game against Kilker, who is a competent general. Note: in this tournament I beat a mechanized Chaos and Marine list (run by Jayson who's Space Wolves beat me in the other bat rep), and only lost to a .pdf Blood Angels force that was a mix of infantry and mech.

******************

Game 3: Kilker: Mech IG

Kilker had roughly:

Command squad with Creed ("can you take me hiigher") in a Chimera with Heavy Bolter and Heavy Stubber (all his chimeras had this, so I'm going to shorthand the rest)
5 or 6 Veteran Squads with 2 meltaguns and a lascannon in Chimeras
2 Leman Russes festooned with Heavy Bolters and Heavy Stubbers
2 Hellhounds with Heavy Bolters and Heavy Stubbers
1 Bane Wolf with Heavy Bolter and Heavy Stubber

If you're keeping track at home that's a whole lot of OUCH! As I was walking around prior to beginning the tournament, this list struck me as the toughest, I knew I was going to need luck and flawless tactics to pull this out...

The deployment was Spearhead and the mission was modified kill points which was identical to normal kill points except that heavily armored vehicles and vehicle squadrons of 3 and any monstrous creature beyond the first one were worth 2 kill points. In addition, you got bonus points for getting your Heavy Support choices into the opponent's deployment zone.

Well, to start things off, I was able to steal the initiative and go first, which threw a wrench in Kilker's plans. I was able to blow up a Chimera and move up to start my slog through his fire. He proceeded to mess up my Killa Kans and kill two (they were worth 2 KPs) which I would then hide behind the big building in the middle 'til the end of the game, however, he left one of his squads very near to the middle of the board.

My turn two, I got my Trukks and Rokkit Buggies to come in from reserve and they made a dash towards his right flank (my left). I got a lucky Waagh roll and my Trukk boyz were rewarded with a dead Chimera. He blew up the other trukk in his turn, but the squad lived, but was staring at his banewolf which had outflanked and had helped reduce the other trukk boy squad to just the Nob with one wound left.

Nathan said...

Lots to reply to. Tried typing it all out and I hit the limit. Going to break it up over a few posts...

First off, in response to smurfy.

Those are shoota boyz, so fewer attacks than you have listed; but you're also running the numbers on only needing 6s to hit. If the vehicle moved only 6" then I only need 12 attacks at s4 for a glance... Most vehicles moving over 6" aren't shooting.

The Mech Guard I play against is various and powerful. Don't mistake what I'm writing to imply that I think it is a poor choice or inferior to my army list; my point is simply that I have the tools at my disposal to beat these lists and the tactical acumen to see it out.

Your assumption that I'm playing against poor IG generals is precisely my argument in reverse: I'm curious as to what kind of Orks you are playing against. :P (meister kei makes a great point...)

Here's one bat rep from the March 2010 TSHFT that I also won best general at where I beat Kilker (a local general who is respected).

Kuolema said...

Hmm you referring to me or the ork defense guy?
If it's me, I do 'get it' about keeping the fast stuff in reserve so you don't hit the opponent in waves. I just think it's stupid.

Hitting in waves is bad because your opponent shoots the stuff that is going to hurt him first then what will hurt him next and finally what ever is left.
Trucks being faster than shootas mean they get shot before shootas.

But keeping the fast part of your army in reserve so your trucks hit your opponents lines the same turn your shoota boys do. Well it doesn't solve your problems your opponent just goes, ok well I'd normally shoot the trucks before the shootas but since they aren't on the board I'll just kill the shootas instead.
Keep in mind that is just an example shootas shouldn't be shot at until lootas are dead.

And if you were talking about the ork guy, well um my bad xD

Nathan said...

Game 3: Kilker: Mech IG

Kilker had roughly:

Command squad with Creed ("can you take me hiigher") in a Chimera with Heavy Bolter and Heavy Stubber (all his chimeras had this, so I'm going to shorthand the rest)
5 or 6 Veteran Squads with 2 meltaguns and a lascannon in Chimeras
2 Leman Russes festooned with Heavy Bolters and Heavy Stubbers
2 Hellhounds with Heavy Bolters and Heavy Stubbers
1 Bane Wolf with Heavy Bolter and Heavy Stubber

If you're keeping track at home that's a whole lot of OUCH! As I was walking around prior to beginning the tournament, this list struck me as the toughest, I knew I was going to need luck and flawless tactics to pull this out...

The deployment was Spearhead and the mission was modified kill points which was identical to normal kill points except that heavily armored vehicles and vehicle squadrons of 3 and any monstrous creature beyond the first one were worth 2 kill points. In addition, you got bonus points for getting your Heavy Support choices into the opponent's deployment zone.

Well, to start things off, I was able to steal the initiative and go first, which threw a wrench in Kilker's plans. I was able to blow up a Chimera and move up to start my slog through his fire. He proceeded to mess up my Killa Kans and kill two (they were worth 2 KPs) which I would then hide behind the big building in the middle 'til the end of the game, however, he left one of his squads very near to the middle of the board.

My turn two, I got my Trukks and Rokkit Buggies to come in from reserve and they made a dash towards his right flank (my left). I got a lucky Waagh roll and my Trukk boyz were rewarded with a dead Chimera. He blew up the other trukk in his turn, but the squad lived, but was staring at his banewolf which had outflanked and had helped reduce the other trukk boy squad to just the Nob with one wound left.

Next turn my Stormboyz jumped in, and due to a 6 on their base movement and a 5 on their difficult terrain roll were in combat with a unit of guardsmen that had moved up to kill the trukk boyz. My other trukk boyz ran at the bane wolf, and luckily my lootas imobilized it, making it easy pickings for them.

At the same time, one of my squads of boyz snaked their way around the big building lobbing rokkits at one of the leman russes and chimeras.

On the other flank, my other unit of boyz was taking some shots and some burnination, but they were able to charge his first hellhound on turn 3 and his Leman Russ and a vet squad (which had run up to melta my Battlewagon [which was shooting at Chimeras] and had failed) on turn 4.

My two trukk boy squads and stormboyz threatened his whole side and he devoted enough shooting to see them off, but by this point my big mobs were in his line and my lootas had knocked out a bunch of chimeras and had stunned the hellhound. When the round ended on turn 5 I had my battlewagon in his lines, 1 boy left from one 30 strong squad and most of my other 30 boy squad all in his lines and only Creed and his wounded Chimera were functioning. Huge win for the Orks and really kind of a miracle. I had to take 10 leadership 7 checks and didn't fail a single one. Had Kilker had that psychic choir like Evpatoria, odds are that I would've lost a few of those depleted units. This was an exhausting and awesome game, one of the best I've played in a long time and I was STOKED to have beaten that list. Kilker got my vote for favorite opponent and I look forward to locking horns with him in the future!

Result: Win!

*************

Obviously I credit lucky leadership rolls for helping me practically TABLE this mech IG list; but the game was close regardless.

Note: I'm not claiming I win every game and that my list is unstoppable; just that it is certainly competitive and capable of winning out against a variety of lists.

Nathan said...

GAH! Sorry about this, I get messages that it isn't posting, and then it posts... :/

In response to the name of TastyTaste's site, he picked it, not me. :)

In response to Kuolema's breakdown of my list: Honestly, I really don't know what else I can say to you in this regard; my opinion on the efficacy of these units and the way they are set up and your opinions on how I should set them up are so askance, I wouldn't know where to start.

Now, I know internet text can be deceiving, so this isn't snarky; do you have bat reps of your games against Orks where I can see your opinions in action? My experiences with Orks has been totally different and I just can't see your position.

As far as not coming in waves; by turn 3, most of my units should be at about the same strike range as everything else; and therefore presenting a target priority nightmare for my foe. While they may be arriving on the battlefield piecemeal; when they are threatening, they are usually all one.

Kuolema said...

That guard list is nearly as bad as your ork list.

Creed in a mech list o.O?
No heavy flamers on chims
Too many vet squads
Nilla russes
No artillery
Las-cannons on vets
hellhounds and stuff instead of airplanes
no PBS

I can understand the guy prob doesn't have the money for the shiny new toys that make guard so dangerous in 5thed. But his list really isn't that great so beating it with your orks proves. . . . exactly what puppy said.
Orks do well low/mid tier but suffer at high tier level games.

Kuolema said...

The issue with keeping half your stuff in reserve is yes your trucks aren't dieing turn one but you have about half your army suffering from your opponents whole armies shooting. It doesn't solve your target priority issues.

As for internet text, my opinions tend to come across very blunt. I think something sucks then I say it. That said while I don't like your ork list, I have no problems with you as a person. So I hope you don't take my attacks on your list as personal attacks.

AbusePuppy said...

@Nathan
I already said that simply demonstrating that you've won games isn't really a good argument. Call them good generals, call them bad, whatever, victory in specific instances is not a useful argument except to demonstrate a principle. You're not really telling us anything that we didn't know with the battle reports, so it doesn't come off as very useful.

Now, admittedly, I am not the best general, but it really seems that the IG player made some major mistakes. Why were his units in charge range of your Trukks from reserve? Even under ideal circumstances, that's 27" of threat (12" move, 3" deploy, 6" Waagh, 6" charge), and with Spearhead he should have been towards the back corner. His army, as others pointed out, is also not terribly well-built, although I thin piloted better against you it could have done fine.

>As far as not coming in waves; by turn 3, most of my units should be at about the same strike range as everything else;

This just means that you're delaying your fast units for at least a turn to avoid coming in waves. (I don't know about you, but I don't usually see Boyz getting in charge range with mechanized forces turn 3 unless something weird is going on, so you should be a turn behind there as well.) Turn three means he's going to get a LOT of shooting in on you- my Tau 1750 list would have killed off both Boyz squads and all your Kans, BW, and Trukks at that point with expected wounds. This isn't a "omg my list SO GUD!" brag, this is what you should expect from any competent shooting army. You don't have any real "threats" that actually force them to deal with them before you arrive in melee- and you don't arrive in melee particularly quickly.

AbusePuppy said...

What I'd like to see, response-wise, is answers to some questions that would give the list validation.

-Why so few Lootas? They are pretty much guaranteed to die.

-Why keep your early threats off-table? They WILL get shot up when they arrive.

-Why not put the larger Boyz squads in Battlewagons? That at least gives you a fast threat.

-Why the Killkannon BW at all? It doesn't really do anything useful for the list.

Unfortunately, I can't give you any battle reps as "evidence", since I haven't gotten paired up against our local Speed Freaks player. (And, to be honest, he's not all that great, but he has a pretty standard list of Trukks, Boyz, and Nobz, so it could serve as some sort of demonstration.)

Smurfy said...

Exactly the issue, Kuolema.

All Ork players who think Orks are good think they're facing good examples of lists but they're not.

Creed in Mech Guard? What the hell man? That's laughable. I would reiterate what he said but ya.

- Why have less target saturation with Reserves? Someone is actually gonna advance not knowing the Trukks are coming later? Do all people have short term memories?

- What, a Killkannon is gonna do something noteworthy? AKA: Your opponent wasn't in Transports or wasn't using/making cover?

Etc.

To see my position, because I used to be a Ork player (Ask Kirby) Try playing with some tactics of -

Target Priority

All you need to win games really. So, a good test would be for yourself to do in the mirror is ask what you'd shoot first facing your list.

Me? All the speed first, if I can shoot the Lootas well, them too. From there, it's my game as I am deciding through my own mobility what to fight, not you.

Neil Gilstrap said...

If I do a large write-up on Orks and send it to you, can you post it instead of me trying to write this across several comments posts? I'll provide you with some good counter-points to your discussion and some legitimate things to consider. Was planning on doing this at some point anyways.

AbusePuppy said...

I would be more than happy to, yes; I realize it's rather awkward to point/counterpoint in blog comments like this, one of the main disadvantages compared to a forum.

Neil Gilstrap said...

Warning, it's going to be HUGE. :) And thanks.

Nathan said...

First, in regards to Creed in IG list; his guard were out of the tanks and he was giving them orders. They stayed in cover, and, if shot at, would go to ground (only to have Creed "get them back in the fight").

@AP In regards to trukks charging; in spearhead with everything on the table, there really wasn't a lot of space. Also, it should be noted there was a huge piece of ruin in the middle of the board, meaning he moved stuff to either edge in order to shoot.

In regards to Tau, I'm curious how you come to this conclusion. I'm not sure what your list is, so I'll reserve judgement. My win percentage against Tau with my Orks is almost 100%, they're probably the easiest matchup for me other than regular Space Marines.

Its correct that we can't accurately defend our position solely by battle reports or anecdotes. In that instance, we have 6 possibilities.
1. The general in command of the winning army is amazing.
2. The losing general is terrible.
3. Both lists suck.
4. Someone is lying.
5. Luck was involved more than normal.
6. I might be wrong.

Literally every time I get into this debate online the responses on either side boil down to those essentials.

Ok, to your specific questions.

Neil Gilstrap said...

Okay... it's done. :p nearly 7500 words. I'll email it to you in sections. I'm not editing this because, honestly, I don't care enough to spend another hour doing that. :)

Nathan said...

-Why so few Lootas? They are pretty much guaranteed to die.

They die rarely enough that I'm not concerned. And, frankly, I don't *need* them to win games as my other units can deal with vehicles as well. Honestly, the tourney report I posted earlier was the first time in ages that they'd been elminated so early (and not through lack of enemy attention).

-Why keep your early threats off-table? They WILL get shot up when they arrive.

Not before moving up quickly to where they need to be. Despite your assessment of your Tau shooting, I have never had one game in which my big mobs were killed sooner than turn 4 by shooting. All the cover saves available, not to mention KFF means they stay on the board for a while.

-Why not put the larger Boyz squads in Battlewagons? That at least gives you a fast threat.

I don't always need to be fast. 2/3rds of the games are about controlling objectives; one of which has all the objectives in the center. As soon as I move into the center, I've gotten where I want to be. I force YOU to come to ME. Also, its another KP and the unit is now less survivable and doesn't have as much AT. It also eats up HS slots which I want for other things.

-Why the Killkannon BW at all? It doesn't really do anything useful for the list.

Actually, its probably the lynchpin of the army. The gretchin ride inside, you see. So, its a scoring unit. It stays back, in the middle, keeping the AV14 front towards the worst threats. All the while projecting the KFF to my mobz. Its a tough nut to crack at range, and you have to get through the boyz and kans to engage it. In addition, when I pop open Rhinos or marines jump out to shoot, its nice to lay that blast marker on them... Also, it used to be a looted Leman Russ, so it makes more sense model wise.

Again, the list doesn't need validation; its validated itself on battlefield after battlefield. It accomplishs my battle plan superbly and is versatile enough to respond to most situations. It usually starts dictating the battle around turn 2 when the bulk of my army is in range.

Nathan said...

(this might be a double post, having issues with replies)
@smurfy: "Me? All the speed first, if I can shoot the Lootas well, them too. From there, it's my game as I am deciding through my own mobility what to fight, not you."

Remember, my speed elements are in reserve. Your options for shots are this: BW with KFF, Killa Kans with KFF, 60 boyz with KFF, Lootas in cover, or Lobbas out of LoS. None of those is easy to kill unless you put a metric ton of firepower into it or are lucky. Also, none of those elements are essential to me, the whole army is like Jason Statham and Sly Stallone: expendable (can't wait!).

Sure your mobility can keep you sort of out of reach, but I have a 30" threat range for rokkits on my boyz, and, at the maximum, start 24" away from your deployment zone. If you deploy super back, I'll still be in range on turn 2. I'm familiar enough with refused flank and the like to not get suckered too bad, and, since my reserves will be coming in later, they can come in on the side that needs it most, reacting to your position.

Neil Gilstrap said...

E-mailed to abusepuppy@gmail.com

Hope it formats okay in the e-mail!

Smurfy said...

Why do you think people care about your stuff on field if it's slow and hanging back?

1) You know, and I know, you need to get close to do the majority of your damage. Hell, You can't touch vehicles outside Lootas and a lucky Battlewagon?

2) AV 14 is not hard to take out, cover or no cover, it's called Melta, and if the KFF has always saved you I am suspicious.

3) 30 Boy Ork Mobs same thing, beauty of Tank Shocking.

4) "start 24" away from your deployment zone. If you deploy super back, I'll still be in range on turn 2."

5) Hrmmm and you will be shooting what? Predators? Rhinos? Dreads? Land Speeders? What is YOUR target priority?

6) Will the Rokkits do anything notable? 3 Rokkits a mob...1 hits maybe...Cover Save...Done? Why can't you apply this logic in a mirror? Why am I not getting Cover, why are the Rokkits always hitting when they need to? Why are they so reliable when I know they're not?

7) Refused Flank kinda works, here, always has that instance vs. a Ork army which is slower. Only trouble is making a good front line so the Reserves don't Multi-Charge everything. Soo, funny you bring that up.

So to sum up:

I don't like how you are assuming best case scenario, when you aren't for the opponent. Makes a poor argument and more of "everything's going my way" Want to be realistic?

- Tell us how much damage those Rokkits realistically do. (Factor in Cover, To Hit, To Pen tables and factor what you commonly shoot at.)
- Tell us how much of it is just "waiting" for the rest to come on around Turn 4?
- How much of your game is in a bluff?
- How is AV 14 tough with a game full of people taking Meltaguns to take out tanks?

Etc. It's like shooting at one-sided mirror here. You seem to be using great logic and such, but you are assuming the opponent has none and everything goes your way, and that's my biggest beef.

Kuolema said...

Ok here we go . . .

Using creed with 50-60 vets out of their tanks? Seriously wtf? could of at least used infantry platoons with auto-cannons if you are going to do that, give them commissars as well. Vets go in chims or planes, not on foot. They cost more than normal guardsman but die just as easy.

With the tau, take 5minutes to look around this blog and you'll see the basis that ALL good tau lists are built on. Then look at the lists your opponent is using and then read point number 3 in your post.

Out of the 6, I'mma say 3. That guard list is just, it's too bad for words.

Your lootas not dieing and you killing vehicles with your boyz is because well your opponents aren't that good. Look back to what puppy said about orks doing well in low/mid tier games.

Your trucks will only move where they need to be before dieing if your opponent is advancing to you. If he is he should be a melee army and then your truck boyz don't scare anything. If your facing ranged opponents and they advance towards you then look at where puppy said orks do good in low/mid tier games.

Your shoota boyz have crap range, people can just shoot other shit and not care about them till end game if your leaving them on objectives. Oh KFF doesn't save you from heavy flamers.

Don't have the current ork codex but I thought if you gave a battle wagon a kill kannon you couldn't transport troops with it o.O?

The only thing your list validates is puppies claim that orks do well at low/mid tier games but struggle at high end games.

Oh btw any smart opponent kills your lootas first. Cover or no cover. Speed elements die as they came on and the rest dies when ever my guns have nothing better to shoot. So most of the time.

Btw your rokits on the boyz, you do realize 30% of the time all your rokits will simply miss?
Even when you do hit you have to roll high enough on the armor penetration table and THEN on the damage table.

Nathan said...

@smurfy

"Why do you think people care about your stuff on field if it's slow and hanging back?"

Because its sitting on an objective? Because its a kill point? Because it can destroy stuff?

"1) You know, and I know, you need to get close to do the majority of your damage. Hell, You can't touch vehicles outside Lootas and a lucky Battlewagon?"

My rokkits can't touch vehicles? At 30" range (6" moving, 24" range)?


"2) AV 14 is not hard to take out, cover or no cover, it's called Melta, and if the KFF has always saved you I am suspicious."

My vehicle isn't getting close, and is surrounded by Mobz of boyz and kans in the center of the board. How are you getting there with meltas? And, if you are committing to meet me in the center, I'm happy because you're closing the gap for me.

"3) 30 Boy Ork Mobs same thing, beauty of Tank Shocking."

Tank shocking fearless units? Depending on what is tank shocking me, I might just give it a go and auto hit with a rokkit if its in the path of the vehicle. Otherwise, I'll just wait 'til my turn and assault the tank. I know its a common mistake; but you know that only the models that are where the vehicle ends up are moved, correct?

"4) "start 24" away from your deployment zone. If you deploy super back, I'll still be in range on turn 2.""

What?

"5) Hrmmm and you will be shooting what? Predators? Rhinos? Dreads? Land Speeders? What is YOUR target priority?"

My target priority is to shoot what I can kill easiest that is the biggest threat. What am I facing? What is the mission? What is the terrain? What is the deployment?

"6) Will the Rokkits do anything notable? 3 Rokkits a mob...1 hits maybe...Cover Save...Done? Why can't you apply this logic in a mirror? Why am I not getting Cover, why are the Rokkits always hitting when they need to? Why are they so reliable when I know they're not?"

What are you saying here? I'm usually getting a cover save due to KFF, I find that most vehicles don't get cover saves as often as other things unless they are popping smoke or skimmers flat out.

"7) Refused Flank kinda works, here, always has that instance vs. a Ork army which is slower. Only trouble is making a good front line so the Reserves don't Multi-Charge everything. Soo, funny you bring that up."

I'm not sure what you are saying here.

"I don't like how you are assuming best case scenario, when you aren't for the opponent. Makes a poor argument and more of "everything's going my way" Want to be realistic?"

Actually, I'm mostly just citing games I've played in tournaments that I've won Best General at. I'm giving you specific instances where my army works as advertised. What are you citing?

"- Tell us how much damage those Rokkits realistically do. (Factor in Cover, To Hit, To Pen tables and factor what you commonly shoot at.)"

Depends on what I'm facing, but each unit of boyz usually kills one vehicle per game with rokkits.

"- Tell us how much of it is just "waiting" for the rest to come on around Turn 4?"

My tactics depend on the foe/deployment/terrain/mission. Maybe I'm sitting back, maybe I'm running at them. I couldn't tell you unless I was playing the game.

"- How much of your game is in a bluff?"

What bluff is that?

"- How is AV 14 tough with a game full of people taking Meltaguns to take out tanks?"

Again, how are you in range of my Battlewagon with meltas without exposing your forces to counter-attack?

"Etc. It's like shooting at one-sided mirror here. You seem to be using great logic and such, but you are assuming the opponent has none and everything goes your way, and that's my biggest beef."

Funny, I feel the same way.

Nathan said...

@kuolema

"Using creed with 50-60 vets out of their tanks? Seriously wtf?..."

They can jump back in the chimeras at any point and move 12" In the interim, they can benefit from Orders.

"With the tau, take 5minutes to look around this blog..."

I'll do that. I'd like to see Tau do well as I love their style.

Just so you know, there were plenty of Netlisters at TSHFT, none were on the top tables. I'm sure they're all just n00bs though...

"Out of the 6, I'mma say 3..."

That is your opinion, and you're certainly entitled to it; I disagree.

"Your lootas not..."

How do you know the quality of my opponents in terms of generalship? By the same token, I'm convinced you've never played against a good Ork general.

"Your trucks will only move where they need to be before dieing..."

How are they going to win either of the two objective based missions without moving forward somewhat? 5th edition isn't about VPs, its mostly about objective control. Also, trukk boyz don't scare anything? Really? What other unit that costs 167 points can move that fast and be that effective in melee? Considering the boyz are only 127 points, I'm straining to think of anything of equivalent point value that could hold up to them charging...

"Your shoota boyz have crap range..."

Sure, but heavy flamers have to get in range, and won't wipe out a squad all alone. 18" range is plenty, especially since they are assault weapons. A shoota boy shoots almost as effectively as a tactical marine for almost 1/3rd of the points value.

"Don't have the current ork codex.."

Nope, just drops it to 12 model limit. The limitation is on dedicated BWs for nobz.

"The only thing your list validates is puppies..."

Again, no snark, but can you point me to bat reps of your army stomping all over Orks in tournaments? I hear a lot of chatter about competitive lists and such, but I rarely see wins at tournaments from these sources. In fact, when my friend Cole won the midwest regional of 'Ard Boyz, I heard a bunch of blather about how it isn't good. I believe a good list proves itself by winning tournaments.

"Oh btw any smart opponent kills your lootas first..."

Yes, lootas are usually targetted first; but I don't need many to be effective, and I'll be in range with the boyz soon. This isn't some theory, I've played this list, unchanged for well over a hundred games (2 games a week on average for 2 years). I've played in lots of tournaments (we were running a 40k tournament every other weekend for a year until the store moved) against a myriad of opponents of varying levels of skill.

"...you do realize 30% of the time all your rokits will simply miss?..."

LOL, I understand how it all works. Again, I'm not claiming that they just blow up a vehicle a turn; simply that they are effective at what they do.

Smurfy said...

1) Meltas are on many units, which means units are expendable. I am more than willing to keep you on your side of the board at arms length than you overwhelm me, so I use tactics to prevent that from happening.

2) Have you ever had a line of expendables in front of everything else so you can't multi-charge everything? I did it last night with a 5 man biker unit and Speeders, covering the rest of my forces from multi charge and, not allowing opportunity to let it happen.

That's why Refused Flank can still work, if you tank up, I think I'm on top here since your shooting is not great and again we know you like cc.

Rokkits effective when you shoot over 6 turns on average and that 1 unit kills 1 tank? Man that's effective?

You're describing to us that -

1) Rokkits can kill a good amount of stuff while not at the same time.

2) That halving your force vs. the entire enemy force is a good thing.

3) "My target priority is to shoot what I can kill easiest that is the biggest threat" It depends on mission I suppose, but I can't say I've ever managed to ignore the good ol'fashioned Termies in a Land Raider. Oh wait...That's not easy to kill...

Smurfy said...

(For Orks that is)

Kirby said...

*thumbs up for rational debate people*

Though I do find it amusing every Ork player's defense always includes the line "you've never played against a good Ork general." I should do a psych report on it =p.

Nathan said...

@Kirby: I find it amusing that every Ork detractor's defense always includes the line "you only play against terrible lists/generals." I should do a psych report on it. =P

Seriously though, its the same argument in reverse. My opinions and positions are rejected, almost out of hand, because I MUST be playing terrible lists/players. I just respond in kind. :)

@smurfy:

"1) Meltas are on many units, which means units are expendable. I am more than willing to keep you on your side of the board at arms length than you overwhelm me, so I use tactics to prevent that from happening."

Again, if you aren't advancing in 2/3rds of the missions, you're playing for a draw at best. Keeping me at arms length only works for a while. Yes, you could send an expendable unit with meltas; but how many points would that be and how is it getting there? Cheapest bet that would be reliable is chimeltavets at 155 points total. All that to kill one vehicle (maybe) and not the KFF inside or the gretchin. And this is also assuming I'm not shooting at that threat early or I don't see it coming...

"2) Have you ever had a line of expendables in front of everything else so you can't multi-charge everything? I did it last night with a 5 man biker unit and Speeders, covering the rest of my forces from multi charge and, not allowing opportunity to let it happen."

Expendables FTW! That movie is gonna rock! I'm curious how your bikers would survive my shooting to provide a screen. I'm curious how you maintain that screen intact without letting me combo charge them and the vehicles. I like that you are putting them in front of your shooting and giving me a 4+ cover save.

"That's why Refused Flank can still work, if you tank up, I think I'm on top here since your shooting is not great and again we know you like cc."

I prefer shooting, which my army excells at; I just happen to be effective in melee as well.

"Rokkits effective when you shoot over 6 turns on average and that 1 unit kills 1 tank? Man that's effective?"

They usually don't shoot for 6 turns against a fully meched up force, they usually start assaulting... Also, I'm making a generalization that they usually KILL one vehicle per game, if they stun one or destroy a weapon or something else, its all gravy.

"You're describing to us that -

1) Rokkits can kill a good amount of stuff while not at the same time."

You don't have to KILL things to win games and you don't have KILL units to make them worthless.

"2) That halving your force vs. the entire enemy force is a good thing."

Look, you talk about refused flank, and we talk about army footprints a lot. Leaving fast stuff in reserve lets me react to situations as they develop on the battlefield. Its also a bonus if I'm going second as they won't get blown up without doing something. And its hardly half of my force. Its, 70 points for buggies, 210 for stormboyz, and 334 for the two trukk boy squads; 614<925. Also, on 1/3rd of the deployment types I have them come in on turn one.

"3) "My target priority is to shoot what I can kill easiest that is the biggest threat" It depends on mission I suppose, but I can't say I've ever managed to ignore the good ol'fashioned Termies in a Land Raider. Oh wait...That's not easy to kill..."

Land Raider/Terminator combos don't impress me much; you're looking at a crazy amount of points in a few models and none of them are scoring. I concentrate on other stuff that I can kill more easily. Its a game of percentages and chance; I tend to take what my opponent is giving me and kill the targets that are the proper mix of threat and ease of killing.

Kuolema said...

Alright first up no one is assuming you play terrible lists. You showed us lists you where vsing and they are HORRIBLE!!!

Wow they can jump back in chims when they need to, yeah if they aren't dead. lol
Normal platoons bring more guys and more guns and do foot much better than vets.
Vets are awesome because they are BS4 and can shoot melta guns out the top of their chims. So they can blow tanks up without exposing there soft T3 5+ save bodies to enemy fire.

You can't just copy a list from the internet and suddenly be awesome at 40k. You have to know your list and practice with it. You have to know what it can do inside and out and what it's strengths and weaknesses are. Tournaments also prove nothing about what lists are good or not. There are hundreds of factors that make even necrons able to win tournaments.

I know you'll defend your precious ork force to the death and refuse to acknowledge even for orks it sucks. But you can't seriously expect me to believe you think that guard list is good???

Your opponents aren't good cause they lose to a horrible list. o.O seems simple enough to me.
Not saying your list will always lose to a good list played by a good general but your already at a disadvantage before the game starts.

You only have to claim objectives before the game ends, claiming objectives on turn one doesn't win you anything. So your opponent doesn't have to advance until he blows all your threats away and then moves.
Btw want to know one unit right of the top of my head that shits all over your truck boyz? Blood angel assault squad.

Hmmm tank shock the boyz with rhinos then move MM/HF speeders up and poof, your BBQ.
LOL you think shooting as good as a tac squad makes your orks good? No one takes tactical squads for their fire power, they take for their resilience.

I hate repeating myself. Take one look at how many people attended a tournament then compare it to how many people play 40k. Then factor in luck, match ups, comp and other scores that have nothing to do with how good your list is.
By the time your done with that winning a tournament doesn't mean anything for how good a list is.

And no I don't have any battle reports but if I find an ork opponent before I drop 40k completely and move to hordes I'll show it to you. But one battle doesn't prove anything because their are too many factors. And I don't have time to do like 100 battles.

Please come back when you fight a good list by a general with the same skill as you.

Effective at what they do? And what do they do, snag one 35 point rhino a game?

Kirby said...

Can't say I've ever seen an Ork defense without that whilst I have seen many Ork attacks without that line *looks at Puppy & my comments throughout this blog.*

The main issue individuals are bringing up against your list is lack of firepower. Yes you don't need to kill things for your shots to be useful but you don't have enough firepower potential to really suppress an enemy's shooting. Across the Lootas, Boyz, Kanz & BW you've got 4 potential suppression units and out of those only the Kanz and Lootas are really reliable and only against medium and less AV. Add in the Buggies as they come in off the board and you get another somewhat reliable suppression force. So that's perhaps 3 targets suppressed reliably each turn. Against a mech list with 12+ tanks and 3-5 of those as non-gunboat transports and you're still taking a lot of firepower most of the game.

Kuolema said...

Riflenoughts/preds side shot your wagon and it go poof =] Don't even need melta, or there are always speeders with MM, if blood angels any jump pack unit. All your opponent has to do is shake/stun your wagon and that is a waste of a kill kannon =]

Just so you know your shooting blows. You think your good at shooting? you got to be kidding me?
When you have 45 lootas, 9 grot kannons and rokit buggies then you can claim your half decent at shooting. But armies that are good at shooting still blow your green monkeys off the table.
Oh and a melee based army shits all over you. My jump pack blood angels would have a fucking field day. lol gotta love fearless.

TH/SS termies don't scare you? Try playing good marine players. kthanks
You can barely dent a land raider crusader and termies eat whatever they want. Doesn't matter that they aren't scoring if they turn your shoota boyz into green paste.

Heres a 1850 list you might want to look at. =]

Libby, blood and lance and shield - 100

Termies, 3 LC and 2 TH/SS- 210
Land raider crusader with multi-melta and extra armor - 275

Sang priest - 50

Assault squad with flamer - 160
Razor back with lascannon and twin-link plas guns
Assault squad with flamer - 160
Razor back with lascannon and twin-link plas guns
Assault squad with flamer - 160
Razor back with lascannon and twin-link plas guns

Land speeder, HF/MM X2 - 140
Land speeder, HF/MM X2 - 140
Land speeder typhoon - 90

Dread with 2 twin-link autocannons - 120
Dread with 2 twin-link autocannons - 120
Dread with 2 twin-link autocannons - 120

That is a list I made up off the top of my head right now and it's not even very competitive but it walks all over your list.

When I can make a list in like 30 seconds that sucks but still walks all over your list, well you know you got problems.

Brother Loring said...

Kudos to Mr Ork!

I don't fully agree with your thoughts, but it's nice to read some more in-depth thoughts about playing orks without all of the ****-waving and chest-beating! Orks do well where I live, but that's more to do with poor competition than anything else in my opinion. It's nice to send them to somewhere to read about how they can up their game!

Just have to make us 'umans are approaching the argument in the same direction! Lot of *my codex trumps yours* going on. Nathan has put some point across as to why he is happy to deal with certain units, what he got in return was a lot of semen all over his list!

Kuolema said...

lol don't you have a warmahordes article to write brolo =P

I'd take his tactics more seriously if his list was decent and he fought decent lists.
No the guard list is not good, it's like someone had a huge 4th edition collection then 5th ed came along and they didn't want to buy new stuff oh and then they went drinking and added creed to it.

I'd also take his tactics more seriously if they made more sense. Keeping your fast stuff off the board so they don't get shot first turn? uh huh you don't even know if they will arrive when you need them.

He is trying to use rokits and claws in response to puppy saying orks suffer from in anti-tank land.
Yes we get it your shoota boyz can stun a tank every now and then. That is NOT anti-tank.

He only has 2 trucks, if your going to use trucks you need to bring a lot of them. 2 trucks isn't hard to stop at all. 6 trucks and 3 battle wagons is a different story.

60 shoota boyz with a KFF aren't hard to shift off an objective. Soon as decent combat unit or a bunch of flamers show up they die.

A kil-kanon is not an anti-marine solution. It's the same reason people don't bring nilla russes anymore. It's one shot that isn't very accurate doesn't scare tanks and people still get cover saves from it.

One squad of lootas can only shoot one thing a turn and run away as soon as someone so much as sneezes at them. Even with cover.

Kans are kans. 3 BS3 rokkiits? oh scary. Shame KFF doesn't change squadron rules or the fact they have lame armor.

Please tell me this is a joke. If your going to try and claim orks do well in top-tier games at least bring a list and arguments that matter.
Puppy said it a lot that orks do well low/mid tier and yeah mr ork has proven that.

But he hasn't brought up a single fact that shows orks do well in high tier games. Or how they can over come the weaknesses of their codex.
Rokits and claws don't make good anti tank.

Seriously what did you expect? It's like I tryed to say footdar is good by using banshees or fire dragons on foot. If your going to claim footdar is good you atleast try and use good examples.

It's the same here if you are going to try and claim orks are good use good examples. Don't bring a list that has more hole sin it than swiss cheese and try to say it makes orks do well top tier.

Nathan said...

"Alright first up..."

In *your* opinion they are horrible. Why should I trust your opinion?

"Wow they can jump back..."

He deployed them outside of vehicles in our game simply to use the lasguns to shoot my Boyz. Against other armies, he stayed inside.

"You can't just copy a list from the internet..."

Necrons? For real? Now THERE'S a terrible 'dex. TSHFT is non-comped, and I didn't win Best Overall, I won Best General. Pure BP. By the same token, simply stating things are good or not on the internet proves nothing either. What you say about knowing your list is 100% accurate. I know this list like the back of my hand and I know what it can do.

"I know you'll defend..."

I think it could be better; but it certainly isn't terrible. The funny thing about defending my precious orks is that in the circles I play in, I had to for months try and convince people Orks aren't OVERWHELMINGLY better than other armies. People only played my orks if they wanted to tune up for tournaments. When TastyTaste came to TSHFT and seemed surprised I was winning with Orks, I thought he was nuts. In fact, all the things I hear about Orks sucking just makes me feel like I'm taking crazy pills. I don't know how you can look at the units and say, "Terrible." It honestly breaks my mind.
"Your opponents aren't..."

And, in my opinion, I start with a major advantage in MOST games. There are certainly armies that I'll be fighting from my backfoot; but not more than those that I'll be pressuring.

"You only have to claim objectives before..."

As I've stated, very rarely does anyone blow away all my threats with shooting; my nemesis is usually elite close combat units with lots of attacks. If I'm on objectives and you aren't, you either have to shoot me off (and I might just go to ground to survive); or assault me off. A fully shooty mech force can tank shock to contest of course, but that's assuming a lot as well.

"Btw want to know ..."

So, 127 points of RAS is 7ish models. If I charge them (notice that that was my caveat); they have 14 attacks, 7 hits, 3.5 wounds, 2.92 wounds get through. I throw one on the Nob, lose 2 boyz. I now have 36 attacks, 18 hits, 9 wounds, 3 wounds get through, then the Nob attacks, 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1.67 dead. I win combat. Next round I grind them down to nothing. In VacuumHammer, you'll need to try again.

"Hmmm tank shock the boyz with rhinos then move MM/HF speeders up and poof, your BBQ."

Again, you know I only move the models that are where the tank ends up, right? Not in the path? Also, why didn't I shoot those speeders? They're certainly susceptible to my shootas as well as rokkits, and I'd recognize the threat.

"LOL you think shooting as good as a tac squad makes your orks good? No one takes tactical squads for their fire power, they take for their resilience."

No, it just means that they can shoot infantry very effectively; I take 30-strong mobs for their resilience as well.

"I hate repeating myself..."

So what does one have to do in order to validate their lists for you? I judge a list by results not by mystical, internet-armchair criteria.

..continued below...

Nathan said...

"And no I don't have..."

How long have you been playing 40k, I'm just curious. Why would you leave it for Hordes!? Honestly, 1 battle or a million won't prove either of our points to the other because we'll each choose one of those 6 responses to the other's results (well, neither of us will probably pick 6...).

"Please come back when you fight a good list by a general with the same skill as you."

By your criteria? How will I know ahead of time?

"Effective at what they do? And what do they do, snag one 35 point rhino a game?"

They only cost 30 points for the rokkits... If it was a KP mission, its much easier to get that one rhino than 30 boyz.


@kirby: I'll admit I only got to this site because someone sent me the link, so I'm not familiar with your argumentation on the subject in general; but nearly every counterpoint to my arguments is "Your army is only good against crap lists." Its a purely subjective opinion on everyone's part whether a list is good or not. As I said above, I judge the efficacy of a list on how it performs in tournament play. I take special note when it consistently wins. My list consistently wins (in tournament play its about a 4-1 win - loss ratio) and continued to consistently win for a 2 year span. I don't think that I'm so good at 40k or that I'm so brilliant as to beat up loads of different players all the time with a terrible list. I'm not playing in a small community, I'm playing in a big city at multiple venues against lots of players. Certainly, if my list was terrible, I'd start losing more often.

I find it interesting that you think my army lacks firepower. I out-shoot MOST enemy armies; with the exception of IG. I readily admit that mech IG is a tough nut to crack (there's a reason its so prevelant...); but in Dawn of War and kill points missions it is at a disadvantage to my army because either I start up close to it and therefore will go for an all-out assault; or else it has more easy KPs to give up than I do. In other missions I can be sneaky and go full reserve to limit damage to my army, unless I go first, then I'd be tempted to deploy and try and damage key units early (like Manticores).

-fluger

Nathan said...

"Heres a 1850 list you might want to look at. =]

Libby, blood and lance and shield - 100

Termies, 3 LC and 2 TH/SS- 210
Land raider crusader with multi-melta and extra armor - 275

Sang priest - 50

Assault squad with flamer - 160
Razor back with lascannon and twin-link plas guns
Assault squad with flamer - 160
Razor back with lascannon and twin-link plas guns
Assault squad with flamer - 160
Razor back with lascannon and twin-link plas guns

Land speeder, HF/MM X2 - 140
Land speeder, HF/MM X2 - 140
Land speeder typhoon - 90

Dread with 2 twin-link autocannons - 120
Dread with 2 twin-link autocannons - 120
Dread with 2 twin-link autocannons - 120"

Why does this walk over me? I certainly outshoot it. It only has one unit that I have to worry about in melee, and that unit is susceptible to massed attacks.

You have very little that threatens my lootas at range, so they should be dealing out death most of the game. Even with SoS, I can drop any of those vehicles outside of the Land Raider with my lootas.

I'd rate your chance of success at beating my list as very low. We just obviously come at this game from different perspectives.

In regards to your points. I don't care if you are stunning my BW, as it is a scoring unit that happens to shoot.

My shooting doesn't blow by any remote stretch of the imagination. 104 S4 shots from shootas, 1 S7 Ordnance blast, 11 S8 rokkits, 15/30/45 S7 shots, 3 S5 barrage templates. I just don't know what you are looking at when you make these claims.

Melee based armies are certainly a threat, but then again, I SHOOT them.

Brother Loring said...

Shameless plugs FTW!

http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2010/07/back-to-basics-part-3-tank-shock1.html

And I do have some Warmachine articles to write, but who would bother when this is obviously the cool place to hang-out?

Nathan said...

"Please tell me this is a joke. If your going to try and claim orks do well in top-tier games at least bring a list and arguments that matter.
Puppy said it a lot that orks do well low/mid tier and yeah mr ork has proven that."

I feel the same way in reverse. All your arguments and opinions smack of inexperience in my estimation. Perhaps I'm wrong; perhaps not.

What do you define as low/mid/high level? Why are you the authority on this? Instead of sitting there and saying, "his list only wins because the tournament players in the Seattle area are all terrible" try and look at HOW I win with this list. HOW are you quantifying what makes a list good? Lots of things look good on paper, and turn out not to be. Lots of things don't look good on paper and turn out to not be. Know how you find out? Play the game.

Honestly, I think my tactics are rudimentary at best and yet the list works so well for what I want to do that I win lots of games.

Your reasonings and points just don't jive with my experiences in the game.

Frankly, most of my opinions on how to use Orks are on the Ork Defense Force on BoK (http://bloodofkittens.com/category/ork-defense-force/), go there and respond to those if you are so inclined. It much more comprehensive and ordered and we'd get a lot more out of the discussion I think.

I don't think I'll be able to satisfying your particular brand of arguments and lists that "matter"; I'll just keep winning tournaments and pick up games.

Nathan said...

Bro Lor, I'm on my way out the door to go play Fantasy; I'll hit you back with a reply in regards to your article as soon as I read it. Just skimmed it and it looks very professional and informative. I need to get my hands on that program to illustrate my points better.

Cheers!

-fluger

Kuolema said...

Don't trust my opinion, ask any decent guard player. =]
Better yet e-mail the list to stelek, that could be funny =]

OH no lasguns against ork boyz with a KFF O=!!! fuck man, those guardsman are pro.

I like how every time I say it you ignore it, but here we go again. Look how many people attended this tournament then how many people play 40k, then factor in all the other variables and then realize winning a tournament proves nothing. =]

Ok here is why that guard list is terrible, mech lists don't need orders, yes they are nice but they aren't needed. There for creed is a waste of points when you could take a normal hq guy instead.
No PBS? Not only can they bring their own chim but they are useful vs pretty much every single army out their.
Lascannons on vets? There is a different between duality and just plain silly. You take meltas on vets so you can move 6'' and still pop tanks, lascannons mean you aren't moving and your wasting your meltas. P.S lasguns suck.
Also too many vets, you don't need more than 4. Use the points saved to buy PBS or something.
Airplanes are hands down the best fast attack choice guard have gonig for them, they can be built to pop tanks or kill infantry, they are fast skimmers AND they can carry vets.
Nilla russes? Seriously? Same reason you kil-kanonm sucks applies here. Medusas/manticores/hydras any of them are better. Hell even a demolisher would be a better choice.

You start with a major advantage vs bad lists and are at a disadvantage vs good lists. How does that dis-prove the point puppy was trying to make?

Please vs a good guard shooting list and then tell me you didn't get shot to pieces. =]
Tank shocking doesn't have to assume anything to be good.

40k isn't played in a vaccum, just saying if you charge them doesn't mean you will, more often than not you'll be charged since jump packs are better than your crappy truck. Anf jump troops can focus on one part of your army at a time. =]

I know how tank shocking works. Speeders get cover easy enough and are fast and can keep put of LOS and your rokits can't hit the board side of a barn.

Shame any infantry your shootas are a threat too won't come to you and are safe inside their metal boxes. =]

Use a good list vs another good list and stop clubbing baby seals then trying to say your ork list is good?

ok next post =D

Kuolema said...

Why would I leave it for hordes? What edition of 40k are we in? What edition are most of the codex in?
Hordes went to MK2 not that long ago and they updated all there factions.
That is just one point. Hordes is also cheaper to run a decent army and you can play 15 point battles and it still feels like hordes. 40k doesn't feel like 40k at 500 points.
I also like hordes model range more and their rules and they way the game plays. But that is all personal opinion.
Just so you know I started 40k back in 3rd edition, I even own the old ork codex.

Do some research, find out what makes a good list a good list. It's not hard. This blog would prob give you all the information you need to understand when a list is good or not.

Why do people like kirby or stelek think some lists are good and others are bad? Because they understand what makes a good list and what doesn't. They understand what elements are needed to make a good list.
Winning a tournament doesn't prove a list is good or not. Demons consistently won tournaments when they came out so I guess by your logic demons are really competitive??

Next post =D

Kuolema said...

You seem to be missing something, orks are BS2 marines are BS4. But lets compare fire power.

You have
15 lootas
6 rokits from boyz
3 rokits from kans
2 twinlink rokits on buggies
a kil-kannon
bunch of shootas that don't scare jack.
oh and lobbas that don't do jack.

Marine list has
3 lascannons
3 twinlinked plasma guns
3 flamers
1 twin-linked assault cannon
2 hurricane bolters
5 multi meltas
4 heavy flamers
heavy bolter
typhoon missile launcher
6 twin linked auto cannons

You think you out shoot that? You gotta be kidding me. The marine shooting isn't just more accurate but comes on more resilient platforms.
You seem to forget the termies are in the raider you can barely touch AND they have FnP.

Like I said this list isn't even that great, it's not a shooty list either, it has mediocre shooting.

Alright next post =D

Kuolema said...

Even if let say for the sake of pretending you have a point that my arguments are wrong. You still haven't disproved ANY of puppies points.

Read puppies battleship of text, it explains low/mid/high tier level of games, =]

A list is not good because it wins tournaments or because you can club baby seals all day. A list is not good because warseer crys and says it is cheese and unbeatable. A list is not good because 80% of players think it is.

A list is good because of certain factors.
It has to be able to handle all kinds of enemy builds.
It has to make sure it doesn't rely on any one particular unit to win.
It has have target saturation.
It has to make target priority hard for your opponent.
I could go on, but there are things that make good lists good and bad lists bad.

Your right if your arguments continue how they are they won't change my opinion. If you had any decent points then you probably could. Btw no I won't be posting on a site with a name like that, don't care who choose it.

Sure you just keep clubbing those baby seals. =D
Doesn't make your list good.

AbusePuppy said...

@Nathan
I'll be responding to a bunch of the posts in more detail in a followup article, but some major points:

-Your army will not outshoot anything. You only have 18" range, which is short enough that most good shooting armies will simply stand outside of your reach and pound you to death, and unless you Go To Ground with everything every turn, that will wear you down pretty quick. (If you do, they can move in and take you apart at closer ranges.) Ork shooting is "good" when they have the mobility to bring it to bear against the enemy, and your mobs of Boyz do not have this.

-"104 S4 shots from shootas, 1 S7 Ordnance blast, 11 S8 rokkits, 15/30/45 S7 shots, 3 S5 barrage templates. I just don't know what you are looking at when you make these claims."

Your Shootas are unlikely to be in range of another shooting army, as noted above. 18" is simply not enough- playing Tyranids a lot, I am intimately familiar with its limitations. The Killkannon will do some damage, but it's priced higher than a Basalisk and is far less effective, so I don't see it as very impressive. The Lootas, as I have repeatedly said, will be the first thing to die, since they are your only real "threat" unit. The Rokkits are either dangerous (on the Buggies) or not (on the Boyz and Kans) due to speed; again, they shoot the former and leave the latter to destroy at leisure. Lastly, the Lobbas, while not useless (barrage weapons are often underestimated), do not constitute a significant threat.

-That IG list, as described, was horribly played. Vetrans should NEVER be outside of their transport against Orks. Not ever not never for any reason. I don't care if he wanted to issue orders or if there wasn't enough room to unfold the Playboy spread all the way inside the Chimera, mechanized Guard getting out of its metal boxes is SUICIDE. I have made more than my share of mistakes in play as well, but I think it's hugely important to recognize when you make them and own up to it, otherwise you just keep making the same errors over and over again.

-"What do you define as low/mid/high level?"
:( I wrote a whole article on that in hopes of explaining this one.
(Also, didn't realize you were in the Seattle area. Perhaps next time 'Ard Boyz or something rolls around we can meet up? I'm a ways south of you, past Portland.)

AbusePuppy said...

-*BA list*
The way I see it, this list has lots of highly mobile flamers (which your list hates), long-range firepower to kill/suppress your vehicles (and that you can't really do anything about in return), and a strong hammer unit that you cannot reasonably expect to actually hurt (since you can't deal with AV14 until it's in your lines.) Massed attacks are not a good way of killing of Terminators with FNP- you effectively need 24 Boyz (@3 attacks each, S3 because he'll get the charge) in order to kill ONE Terminator. Of course, you'll also put hits on the Priest and kill it after the first turn, making the job easier, but at that point you've taken ~20 casualties (10 from kills, 10 from No Retreat) and things are looking really, really bad for you.

Reiterated yet again, for everyone's benefit: winning tournaments does not make a list good. It means that you were better than everyone at the tournament, and that's no small feat; but if you are looking to do the best you can in the game, why would you discard all rationally-explained evidence on the basis of "well, what I have is working for me." No one is saying that you didn't/can't/won't win games with an Ork list- the point is, rather, to explain the limitations of the Ork codex and how this cripples them in high-level play. Since it was never spelled out in the article: I, personally, have never seen a gaming store (or area) where high-level play was actually practiced. It is largely a theoretical construct at this point, because the 40K community at large is, in many ways, hostile to the idea of competitive play (except when it is their own list that they want to improve.)

Kuolema said...

The priest is suppose stay in his raider if he can. Makes his bubble bigger and keeps him safe. =]
He just sits on top shooting the multimelta with one hand and waving his blood chalice around with the other. lol

Meister_Kai said...

"the point is, rather, to explain the limitations of the Ork codex and how this cripples them in high-level play. Since it was never spelled out in the article: I, personally, have never seen a gaming store (or area) where high-level play was actually practiced. It is largely a theoretical construct at this point, because the 40K community at large is, in many ways, hostile to the idea of competitive play (except when it is their own list that they want to improve.)"

I think this should of been stated as long, long, long time ago.

Nathan, I don't know you man, but you are seriously an awesome dude. You haven't flown off the handle, you haven't nerd raged, and you've kept awesome composure. While I don't agree with your Ork assessments (what you said about your local game store thinking Orks were cheese sort of confirms what everyone here is saying), I think you are a class act person and I personally thank you for posting your ideas here. Seriously you are the man, 40K needs more people like you.

That said, as it says about and has been said many times, 40K is unduly hostile to competitive players due to a horrible combination of "that guy" ness, past edition unbalances, a stereotypical lazy gamer attitude (I won't change my list it is balanced but Mepheston is CHEESE HOLY CRAP), and lastly a very firm grasp of the hobby by WAAC fluff gamers who can't come to terms with how they are giving the middle finger to people who just want to do they same as they, people who want to enjoy the game for what they make of it.

I hate to constantly bring this up like every time I talk, but coming from playing competitive Magic (I placed 28th out of 300 in the last SCG tourny in Indy, had to brag a little lol) I find the way competitive players are treated as atrocious. Game theory has slacked ridiculously just because this barrier to competitive play has been constructed by those that think they know what is the best for everyone. Its sad really.

Sorry for the rant, but damn this gets to me sometimes.

Kirby said...

Echoing Meister_Kai on the somewhat civilised conversation *raises eyebrow @ Kuolema :P*

Puppy & Kuolema make excellent points in regards to your list outshooting other lists Nathan. Let's take a look.

You wrote you have (everything BS2 unless noted):
104 S4 @ 18"
S7 5" blast @ 24"
15-45 S7 @ 48"
3 BS3 S8 @ 24"
8 S8 @ 24" (2 TL'd)
3 S5 3" blast @ 48"

So the majority of your firepower is sitting at 24" or less and the scariest of your firepower (Lootas) is in one squad of Orks, 15 strong. Let's compare to a Tau or SM list only at 24" or greater.

Tau (at BS3 unless noted):
10 S6 @ 24"
20 S7 @ 36"
2 S6 5" blasts @ 72" (BS4) or 2 S10
2 S10 @ 72" (TL'd) or 12 S5 @ 24"
18 S5 @ 24"
20 S4 @ 24"

That's a lot more shots and more reliable shots at 24" or greater with more mobility (JSJ, 'fast' platforms, etc.) and doesn't include markerlight or defense bonuses.

Let's try my SM then (BS4 unless noted):
18 S7 @ 48" (12 TL'd)
4 S9 @ 48"
15 S5 @ 36"
3" 2+ poison @ 36" (BS 3)
4 4+ poison @ 36" (3 BS3)
6 S8 or S4 3" blast @ 48"
3 S8 @ 24"
31 S4 @ 24"

Again, bit of a difference and a lot more spread of firepower across units. Both of these armies are quite happy to take out your 'heavy' anti-tank and move into midfield later. You can say all you want that allowing you to move your 60 boyz into midfield = a win for you but once an army has removed your main ranged threats and can also advance (particularly the SM Mech who have flamers) they have mobility and board control. Another foot list may have issues unless it is good at combat (i.e. BA, TWC SW, Tyranids) but you don't have that much reliable firepower across your army in comparison to what other armies can put out.

Sure if you move into midfield it can be annoying to get rid of you but either through markerlights, tank shocking, flamers or other ignore cover weapons or simply blocking during assault moves, Orks can be brought down en masse without too much hassle.

As Puppy said, your experiences may be the complete opposite of this because of poor understanding by netlist users or just a different 'level' of gameplay but on this blog we aim to look at a world where everyone plays top notch with as good a list as possible. There are very few gaming communities out there like this and this is what this blog tries to encourage.

And if you're looking around for Tau articles the best ones are the How To: Applied Tau in 5th and Armies in 5th edition articles.

Nathan said...

There's too much to respond to, I'll try to make a general reply to hit the high points.

"40k isn't played in a vaccum..."

Couldn't agree more; my list relies on synergy and me having a solid understanding of what it is capable of and an understanding of what my opponent is capable of.

That none of you see how the list is potent and competitive strikes me as odd.

The definition I saw in the article above for "top tier" lists was that it needed anti-tank, mobility, and flexibility/adaptability. I think my list has all that in spades. Do I think my list is unbeatable? No! Do I think it has a good chance against "top tier" lists? Yes!

The only list I've seen so far is that BA list you presented which looks like a pile of fail to me, or at least against my list. Its certainly tuned for killing opposing mech forces and MEq, but I think it lacks enough anti-infantry shooting at range to make it unreliable against my army. It also has a glut of KPs in it (10 easy ones), so I think it'd be on its backfoot against me in a KP mission. I don't know how you're killing my Lootas at range unless you plan on deep striking those Land Speeders or wasting anti-tank shots at them. My lootas will probably blow up a vehicle a turn in response.

The terminators aren't a big deal because they are predictable and don't have a great way of cleaving through a big mob. You don't do enough damage to auto-pop a unit of boyz, and then I counter assault with another one (after putting the Nob on the priest to vape him so no more FnP (and a KP!)) or a trukk boy squad or stormboyz. Fearless may suck for losing extra models, but its nicer than losing combat by 10 and needing snake eyes...

Also, those terminators would be operating solo for the most part unless you commit tiny assault squads in to help, and that's just silly.

I have no idea how your gaming experience has led you to see that list and think "that'll out shoot fluger's Orks"; but mine makes me look at that list and think, "easy win."

Your position that my army won't outshoot anything based on 18" range is a strange position indeed. Even in the worst case scenario of you deploying on the very edge of the table, I'd be 35" away from you in standard deployment; with a 4" run on turn one, I'm in range on turn two. On turn three the whole mob is in range and pummelling something. In regards to being safe in vehicles; I can typically blow up a vehicle a turn, and what's inside but infantry! pew pew pew

I'm fully convinced that tournament results are the only measure of a list; you both disagree. That's an impasse we'll never breach I believe.

You guys think my local gaming metroplis is terrible? I think the same of yours if lists like that BA list you espouse are considered competitive. I know I'm switching up to Fantasy; but at the 2008 Vegas GT, on the final round; table one had a person I game with all the time: Ryan Munsell; table three had Zach vs Eric who I play with often; table 4 I was on; table 5 had Dave and Ernie, both people I've played a lot against, and table 6 had Zen on it (I play him all the time). Obviously, a different system; but they were playing against people from all over the country (I was playing against someone from Italy!) and doing very well. We have GOOD generals here...oh wait...you don't count tournament success...ok... :?

...continued...

Nathan said...

Abuse Puppy. Where are you in OR? I'm travelling down for a tournament on the 13th-15th of August in Vancouver WA. Any chance you could come up and play a game on the 13th at the hotel (they have open gaming). I could bring this list or my 2k list (not as tuned since I've only put in 20 games with it so far), which is fairly similar.

Your final point admitting that "competitive gaming" being theoretical is apt. If I had unlimited money and free time I'd travel all over the world and play in every tournament vs anyone and everyone that I could. I love honing my game and getting better. I like taking on tough lists. We're coming from the same position in terms of what we're looking for in a game; but we have a seriously distorted perspective on Orks specifically.

I'd really like to get a game in to either, A: learn something or B: teach you something.

Unfortunately, the only test for a real army vs army matchup is one game of each mission/deployment option (9 games), and even better playing out 3 of each (27 games). I really think that's the only way you can make an accurate assessment of an armies ability vs another, and even then you are limiting it on player skill, so you'd have to run the same 27 games again only switching generals. And even THAT doesn't cover all the variables of personal taste and how one intrinsicly understands one's own force (some armies make more sense to people than others); so you'd have to make sure both people are equally comfortable with the lists...

I think this idea of creating quantifiably superior lists is a quixotic hope that is prone to disapointment. Its an endless game of "my dog's bigger than your dog" and can't possibly expect to be scientific.

I find that tournament success is much easier to quantify and explain and adapt to. I don't see how you can so readily discount them as benchmarks for list quality. My question is: if the lists you think are so superior are indeed superior; what is stopping you from winning lots of tournaments where lists like mine, which you say is terrible, win at? Shouldn't those just be free prizes for you?

I know this is probably a fruitless request; but I play at TSHFT every time and its run two times a year. There's one happening this labor day weekend up here in Seattle. If you can make it, I highly encourage you to come out. Its non-comped; its all about BPs; come and prove your points. I don't mind being wrong; but I like to have it proven. ;)

-fluger

Nathan said...

Kirby, you posted as I was writing that big post:

Quickly; against Tau, I'd probably deploy differently depending on mission and the like; and I probably wouldn't go for central board control, I'd just head right at you. I'm flexible like that.

That BA list just looks awful IMO at trying to fight my army. I think you're really underestimating how much punishment from lascannons and such the BW can take with a KFF. I envision by turn 2 my kans will be dead; but the BW should be alive, as should the lootas. My rokkits should be in range on turn one or two at the latest, and if they are shooting at the landspeeders the shootas can hurt it.

Really, its not even about how much damage I can DO with shooting (which isn't insignificant), its how much shooting I can ABSORB as well.

I've played against tons of mech marines with rifleman dreads and its just a terrible matchup for them against my list.

I'll tell you what I fear in terms of lists.

BA jump troop army
Straken-led IG list with blobs of infantry as their mainstay, backed by chimera-chassis artillery
Walking Space Wolves
Loganwing

I think of all the deficiencies mentioned above, the most salient is lack of AP2 IMO. Anti-tank is not an issue.

My criteria for a competitive list is this: It needs long range anti-tank, long range anti-infantry; either melee power or short ranged firepower and melee mitigation (tarpits); speed; and resiliency.

As long as you have elements of each of those in good amounts in your army, it should be able to win in most games.

Kirby said...

I didn't write a BA list so I'm assuming you mean the SM one. And one of the Preds is going to sit in your side armor (or both if it deploys middle) which is a lot easier to pop than AV14. Same with the Typhoons, etc. And if it moves into midfield then you have melta range to contend with, etc. The scary units of your army don't absorb fire well. Lootas are T4 with a cover save. Trukks disappear to S6 (especially if they come on later). Kanz are pretty easy to drop with mass S7 (i.e. Rifledreads). The BW if not dropped by side shots will be perma shaken, etc. The list has enough firepower to do that whilst you cannot reliably stop the SM firepower which means your list isn't balanced which is what competitive is about. I'm also not deploying on the edge of my deployment against your list. I'm going to sit about 7" backwards where my 36"+ can still hit you (so let's ignore the MM & bolter shots) meaning you're not in range until T3-4 with your Rokkits as I can move and shoot. I can also focusfire the Lootas pretty well with Dakka Pred & Typhoons & Scouts and even halving the Loota squad makes them way less efficient thanks to BS2, etc.

Armies do not setup 24" from each other and stay relatively static. There is a lot of movement and when lists outrange or outgun you they aren't just going to sit there and let you. An Eldar or DE list could stay @ 24" of parts of your army for most of the game if the player eyeballs well and most of those armies could even stay further away, etc.

No list has all the bases covered but there is no singular army it folds against (also for a competitive list to meet your criteria, Jumpers and TWC lists aren't always competitive and your Ork list certainly doesn't have long range anti-tank, it has token long range anti-tank) but a balanced list is capable of working in both offensive phases and not folding in their opponent's offensive phases. This is what a balanced list is about.

I don't know how you can say the Rifledreads are terrible matchups when they are mobile (so can get into side arc of BW if needed) and have perfect targets in the Buggies, Kanz & Trukks beyond the fact there are 3 of them (+ m obility) so can tend to avoid your Lootas).

With Tau, sure deploy up the middle and bum rush me. Here's a piranha squad with drones. Delayed. here's another. Delayed. Here's a kroot squad. Delayed. Here's another. Delayed. And you've been eating my firepower the whole entire time. Tau would love you to do this as it plays right into the hands of their build.

In regards to the "creating quantifiably superior lists." Except it is and has been done. You've attempted to identify them yourself by indicating what you think a competitive list is. Whilst 40k has a lot of grey areas, when you break down the game system there are clear lists which do well compared to others. In the current edition there are a lot of lists which do well thanks to good codex design on the new books and some older books transfering well to 5th (Eldar, DE, Tau, SoB). Splitting these lists up can be very difficult and is like splitting hairs but they can all produced balanced lists and balance is key to competitive 40k.

Kuolema said...

Replying to you makes me feel like I went to warseer instead of 3++. lol at least it is interesting. =]

Please take a look at brolos tank shock article and then look at how many tanks and flamers are in that list before you claim it doesn't have enough anti infantry fire power. The crusader puts out decent anti infantry fire power it's self, dreads and typhoon can shoot infantry when your vehicles are wrecks.
The termies WILL wreck one of your shoota boyz on the charge and it's not hard to put vehicles in the way to prevent you counter charging. Also the priest sits in the raider, the raider stays within 6'' of the termies. VS a list that could kill the raider this would be more risky but against yours, the priest just laughs. =]

Your lootas die first turn even if it takes the whole armies ranged fire power. The rest of your army isn't a threat turn one.

The termies may be predictable, I said this list wasn't competitive. But you have no counter for them. The priest sits in the raider and the termies walk thou your boyz and anything else that feels like sitting on an objective I want to claim.

Silly, yes. That is why this isn't a top tier list. You still have no counter to the list. It is more maneuverable than you. It out shots you. The termies eat up w/e they feel like.

If you think it's such an easy win, please tell me how you are dealing with the termies? You can't kill the priest till you kill the raider. You can't assume I'll leave my termies where you can counter charge them. You also can't assume what your going to use to counter them will still be alive when the termies feel like jumping on you.

If I deploy on the board edge I can always move to the side or just drop my raider in between the bulk of your army the the squishier vehicles of mine.

Both puppy and myself have mentioned why we think tournaments are not a good way to measure how competitive a list is. Maybe you should try and give reasons why winning a tournament makes your list top tier rather than just saying so?

This BA list is NOT competitive, it is something I thought up in like 30 seconds. It is a low/mid tier list like your ork list. =]
Lol I'd prob go unleash rage rather than lance on the libby if i was to change anything thou. unleash rage + libby + termies, lot of dead orks =].

Kuolema said...

Hmmm I guess my jumpers aren't competitive, they have no long rang anti-tank or long range anti-infantry. =[

Libby - lance and shield
honor guard - 205
jump packs and 4 melta.

Priest with jump pack 75
Priest with jump pack 75

Assault squad 235
10 men, 2 melta guns, sarge with power fist
Assault squad 235
10 men, 2 melta guns, sarge with power fist
Assault squad 235
10 men, 2 melta guns, sarge with power fist
Assault squad - 130
5 men, flamer, sarge has power fist and hand flamer

Vanguard vets - 275
jump packs, 5 storm shields, sarge has power fist
Vanguard vets - 275
jump packs, 5 storm shields, sarge has power fist

It's only over 50 jump pack marines with FnP. =[
Could prob drop the 5 man squad for another priest and add hand flamers to the 10 man squads or combi flamers to the priests, but i'm lazy atm. lol

Kirby said...

play nicely Kuolema =p.

I'd drop the man squad aye. Get another priest or libby for it.

Kuolema said...

This is nice. =x lol

VT2 said...

No melta.
Lots of AP3.
Biased towards foot.
Expensive, bad vehicles.
One-dimensional units.
Limited support.

The book was designed for 4th edition, and it shows.

Orks are bad, because they're a mêlée army that can't really beat things up.
They're slow, unwieldy, not protected at all, and not killy enough.
True, you get almost three boys for each tactical marine I take, but tactical marines aren't my main source of killy, now are they?
No, they're not.

It's true that few armies get good troops - space wolves, blood angels, tyranids, etc. - but even bad troops can be multi-purpose, and do more than score.
Tactical squads get some templates, melta, and ranged anti-tank. They can kinda shoot things, kinda hit things, and kinda soak some damage.
What can your boyz do? Rush across the field, pray they have enough dudes left standing once they hit the opponent's lines, and maybe take out a tactical squad up close?

As far as anti-tank goes, you can blow a maximum of nine slots on it, and even then, you'll end up using half of it to destroy a rhino or chimera. Let's not even get into real tanks, or - heaven forbid - land raiders.
That's not effective, impressive, or good.

No, klaws aren't anti-tank - they're a desperate attempt at anti-tank, and it doesn't always work. In fact, it only rarely works.

Orks are great.
Easy to play, easy to learn, and easy to figure out.
It looks very cool watching all that green, and the sight strikes fear and terror into the hearts of n00bs everywhere, but once they're over it, and they know lootas must be removed first, your chances of winning are significantly reduced.

Orks bad? To a certain point. The book is very limited, and a lot of very important things aren't available.
Orks not competitive? No, ors are not competitive.
They were made during 4th edition - a vastly different game to the one we're playing now. You also got caught by the horrible design team, which is why all the formerly good units that people owned were made noticeably worse, and everything that people didn't own became must-have's.
You simply don't have the tools necessary to dismantle the amount of armor people bring these days, or the bodies necessary to absorb all the damage charging good units does to your own.

Boyz are cheap, but you need lootas, killa kans, battlewagonz, buggies/koptas, charaters, and nobz to support them, meaning the boyz aren't so cheap after all.
Take more boyz and less support for them? Great! Now you really can't hurt armor.
Take more support and less boyz? You're limited to 9 slots for support, and your anti-infantry goes down a whole lot this way.

Like tau, you have one build, but unlike tau, your one build isn't competitive.

Neil Gilstrap said...

Just wanted to point some things out for your reading enjoyment. :) Some things in here I think you might be surprised to know once you see the numbers given the comments I'm reading.... Hope this helps add some perspective to the conversation! I'm not promising 100% accuracy on these numbers, but if you have any questions about where they came from, e-mail me.

I also have my at least calculator program available if you want it. It's very handy for this stuff.

Nob w/ Pk
On almost any vehicle.
45% chance to at least one penetrate. On Moved over 6
88% chance to at least one penetrate. On moved 6 or less.
99.9999% chance at least one penetrate.

Chance to Pen a Landraider:
9.8% to Pen if moved > 6
28% if moved 6 or less
50% if didn't move

(Percentages read as: Without Cover Save/With Cover Save)
LasCannon:
54%/27% armor 10
44%/22% armor 11
33%/16.5% armor 12
22%/11% armor 13
11%/5.5% armor 14

Melta:
44%/22% armor 10
33%/16.5% armor 11
22%/11% armor 12
11%/5.5% armor 13

Melta (2d6)
65%/32.5% armor 10
61%/30.5% armor 11
55.5%/27.525% armor 12
48%/24% armor 13
35.15%/17.57% armor 14

(keep in mind that a KFF projects a 4+ cover save on all vehicles... except in Flueger's dream world *zing! :) * )

Neil Gilstrap said...

================================

Assuming The following in a vaccum:
1) These are blood angel thunder shield terminators who have FnP the
entire fight. (As in, the landraider doesn't die to the horde or a deff rolla and
the sanguinary killed :P)
2) These are slugga boyz and not shoota boyz. (not the case for this list but would
be for me. :P )
3) The terminators, having charged out to meet the Orks, don't then get multi-asssaulted
by the other squads of Orks sitting around.
4) Neither side shot before assaulting (not likely of course)
5) Any other assumptions I missed for our theoryhammer vaccum....
6) Lastly, I only consider something being successful when it is > 50% chance to occur as you will below. Those are "Vegas Odds". Interesting reads on gambling. Basically, though, any gambler will tell you, don't play unless your Odds > 50% of course. :)


Assume Terminators Charge

Round One:

Orks @ I3. 71% chance to kill 1.
Terminators @ I1. 60% chance to kill 5.
Nob @ I1. 42% chance to kill 1. We'll assume this round he does not.

Round 1: Terminators win by 4. Assume Orks lose 4 more to fearless wounds.
Remaining: Orks - 21 + Nob / Terminators - 4
Points Lost: 8*6 = 48 (orks) / 40 * 1 = 40 (Marines)

Round Two:

Orcs @ I3: 57% chance to kill 1.
Terminators @ I1. 71% chance to kill 3.
Nob @ I1: Again 42% chance. 66% chance that on this round he got one.

Round 2: Terminators win by 1. Assume Orks lose 1 more to fearless wounds.
Remaining: Orks - 17 + Nob / Terminators - 2
Points Lost: 4 * 6 = 24 (orks) / 40 x 2 = 80 (Marines)
Total Point: 24 + 48 = 72 (Orks) / 80 + 40 = 120 (Marines)

Round 3:

Orcs @ I3: 51% chance to kill 1.
Termis @ I1: 65% chance to kill 1.
Nob @I1: 36% chance he would have killed 2 by now. So we assume he does not.

Remaining: Orks - 16 + Nob / Terminators - 1
Points Lost: 1 * 6 = 6 (Orks) / 40 x 1 = 40 (marines)
Total Point: 72 + 6 = 78 (Orks) / 120 + 40 = 160 (Marines)

Round 4 can plainly be seen to kill 1 more Ork on average and 1 more terminators.


Final Results after 4 rounds of combat with 29 Sluggas + Nob Versus 5 Thunder Shield FNP Terminators:
Remaining: Orks - 15 + Nob / Terminators - 0
Points Lost: 84 points (Orks) / 200 Points (Marines)

Neil Gilstrap said...

====================================================================

Assume Orks Charge

Round One:

Orcs @ I3: 70% chance to kill 2.
Termis @ I1: 79% chance to kill 2.
Nob @ I1: 44% chance to kill 1. We assume no wound this round.

Round One: Tie.

Remaining: Orks - 27 + Nob / Terminators - 3
Points Lost: 2 * 6 = 12 (Orks) / 40 * 2 = 80 (Marines)

Round Two:

Orks @ I3: 68% chance to kill 1.
Termis @ I1: 55% chance to kill 2.
Nob @ I1: 65% chance he will have killed 1 by round 2.

Remaining: Orks - 25 + Nob / Terminators - 1
Points Lost: 2 * 6 = 12 (Orks) / 40 * 2 = 80 (Marines)

It can be easily seen that next round, Orks will lose 1 and Marines will die.

Remaining: Orks - 24 + Nob / Terminators - 0
Total Points Lost: 30 (Orks) / 200 (Marines)

Neil Gilstrap said...

=============================================

Rifleman Versus Side of BW w/ KFF Protection

Chance to Hit: 89% (twin linked)

First...
Chance to Glance: 16.7% (rolls a 5)
Chance to Roll a 6: (BW is OT so dies on a 6) 16.7%
Chance KFF blows it off: 50%

Odds for Glancing Kill: .89 * .167 * .167 * .5 = 0.012 = 1.2%

Second....

Chance to Penetrate: 16.7% (Rolls a 6)
Chance to Destroy: 50% (Rolls a 4, 5, or 6)
Chance for KFF To blow off: 50%

Odds for Penetrating Kill: .89 * .167 * .5 * .5 = 0.037 = 3.7%.

Total Odds for a Single Rifleman Autocannon Shot to kill A Battlewagon = 0.037 + 0.012 = 0.049 = 4.9%.

RifleMan Shoots 4 Time:
Odds a Rifleman shooting 4 times will get AT LEAST 1 Destroyed Result: 0.18 = 18%

3 Riflemen Shoot 12 Times:
Odds of 3 Riflemen shooting 12 times will get AT LEAST 1 Destroyed Result: 0.45 = 45%

Conclusion:

Odds of 3 Riflemen killing the BW in a single round: 45%

Odds of 3 Riflemen killing the BW in two rounds: 70%

Assuming Riflemen Dreads can ALL shoot for two rounds at side armor, they have about a 2 in 3 chance to kill the BW.

Neil Gilstrap said...

One more... :)

Round 1:

Lootas are on the board edge we'll say appox 30 inches away)
Lootas number 10 we'll say for argument.
Lootas are in cover we'll say for argument.
Entire marine army has line of sight and can shoot lootas we'll say for argument.


Assume You do not move forward to shoot (beacuse if you do, you are now going to
be in range of his guns as well which there are claims that he won't be
in range to shoot you):
3 lascannons have range.
3 twinlinked plasma guns do not
3 flamers do not.
1 twin linked assault cannon does not.
2 hurricane bolters do not.
4 heavy flamers do not.
1 Heavy Bolter has range.
2 x missile shots (tyhoon have range)
6 Twin linked auto have range.

Remaining:
3 x Las
1 x heavy Bolter
2 x missile shots
6 x twin linked auto shots.

odds to kill a Loota:
Odds for Las: 66% (to hit) * 83.3% (to wound) * 50% (cover) = 27.4%
Odds for HB: 66% (to hit) * 66% (to wound) * 50% (cover) = 21.7%
Odds fo Missile: 27.4%
odds for Auto cannon: 89% (twin linked) * 83.3% (to wound) * 50% (cover) 34.5%

Given all of that...
Results:
3 x Las Kills: 61% to kill 1 Loota.
1 x HB Kills: 51% to kill 1 Loota.
2 x Missiles Kill: 47% to kill 1 Loota. (not 50% so does not kill)
12 x Auto Shots Kill: 63% to kill 4 Lootas.

Total Dead Lootas after entire army shoots at them: 6 Lootas.

Loota Leadership: 58% chance they will pass leadership on a 7 or less on 2d6.
Total Points Lost: 90 Points

Granted, on Return Fire there won't be enough lootas left to do much damage.

This is also why I recommend 15 man squads. :P

Here's the proof on that:

Lootas have a 66% chance to shoot at least twice. So let's say they shoot
twice just for measure.

4 * 2 = 8 shots.
Odds to kill a landspeeder: 33% (to hit) * 50% (to penetrate) * 33% (to destroy) = 5.4%
Odds 8 shots will get AT LEAST 1 Destroyed = 36%
Odds 8 shots will get AT LEAST 1 Immob/Destroyed = 49%
odds 8 Shots will get AT LEAST 1 WD/Immob/Destroy = 60%

Granted, a speeder missing a gun or immobilized is a big deal. Not to marine
thinkers but to Orks, it is a huge deal.

That being said, if the Speeder got a CS, it's hopeless. :)

Neil Gilstrap said...

Did you get that massive essay I sent btw? :P

Nathan said...

Its so nice to have someone on here that understands these things. (Although you're still wrong about the KFF :P )

Kuolema, no personal offense, but your opinions on how 40k works and your perception of how the game will play out are just incredibly naive. I won't go into explaining what Neil just broke down in terms of the odds of that BA list killing all the lootas on turn one, but suffice to say, your assertation that they would be dead turn one is insane and makes your opinions look weak. I didn't need the statistical backup (it doesn't hurt), because I looked at the list and made that judgement call immediately. Same thing with saying I have no counter for 5 terminators. Again, I didn't need that stats back up (although his is for slugga boyz and with TH/SS termies not LC...); but I've played out that fight enough times to know how it goes.

I find the logic holes in lots of these arguments odd; you say that you will use flamers and tank shock to kill my infantry, yet simultaneously stay out of range of me?

So you stay on the board edge and slide around? Awesome, you're now pretty far away from any central objectives. What happens in Capture and Control when I have an objective in my deployment zone? Are you not going to go contest it?

5th edition IS about mobility and movement, my counter is I position myself where YOU need/want to go. Its the American Express Tactic (I'm everywhere you want to be).

In regards to your jump pack BA, notice in my list of things that I think are tough: BA jump pack.

@Kirby: I'm well aware of blocking tactics (I use them with my units to slow down Land Raiders/TWC/Bloodcrushers...) and I'd be targetting the piranhas early with lootas and such. And kroot would be crumbling to my fire power. These aren't magical insta-win tactics, and, frankly, my army is still just happy to move up and shoot you each turn. I'm not focused on melee, and I avoid it on Tau vehicles if I know they have flechette launchers.

I was asked somewhere above how I define a good list; I define a good list as a list that wins tournaments. You all apparently think that's a terrible idea; I think its the only reasonable way to look at list design: Theoryhammer is just that: theory.

You don't know much about a list until you've played it a LOT. My personal rule is to change nothing on my list until I've played 10 games with it.

Nathan said...

Also, Neil, I HAVE 15 lootas in that unit. I'm shooting back with 9 lootas. Ld 9 to stay first off and 18 shots, not 8 coming down the pipe...

Also since all the shooting went at my lootas, my kans are still alive, and now are in range...

AbusePuppy said...

Alright folks, new thread is up with lots and lots of replies for everyone. Let's shift things over to there before we make the comment system explode or something and lose all this beautiful, beautiful anger.

Neil Gilstrap said...

Lol :) I sincerely people aren't getting angry over this.

Nathan said...

Can you post a link?

Nathan said...

Oh, I should mention I'm not angry, just baffled.

Dave G _ Nplusplus said...

Is that a picture of Orkioridango?

Kostchtchie said...

Can someone remind me what army kirby lost against in a tourney recently? It was green but I can't remember was it orks? I just want him to say it..
Seriously, the anti-ork tone in the comments is pretty poo.

Kirby said...

I actually think it was Red but yes it was Orks. Does this validate them now? No. Even the pro-Ork players (i.e. Dash and nathan) agree that Orks have serious issues and whilst they may disagree with us in terms of how these issues impact upon their ability on the tabletop, they aren't a shitty army by any stretch of the word. Mike's list in particular overwhelms opponents with simple number of targets and potential damage and I was outplayed. Does this mean Orks are now great? no.

Just like (I hate to use this example) the Cavs beating the Lakers before the All-Star break didn't make the Cavs a good team. It just means they were better on the night.

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