“Sorry to bother you again, but I'm becoming a bit obsessive about this.
I think I've settled on a 5 pod C:SM list. I've kept it at 1750 points, but dropped one IC Dreadnaught. So here are my thoughts on how it might play. Army list below. Previous post here. Basically there are 2 different approaches - the "alpha strike", or the "fire base".
To an extent it doesn't matter if I'm going first or second. I can always (sort of) alpha strike. With 2 IC's and the sternguard coming down first turn, its pretty worrying for most armies. The key will be target choice. Infantry - the heavy flamer Dread. Light armour - the Missile dread. Anything - the sternguard (who can of course combat squad when they come in and hit 2 vehicles with their combi meltas).
In objective games I can split the tac squads keeping the lazcannons on back objectives, sniping transports. In kill point games i can keep the squads together.
Now, the 2 classic counters to a Pod list are - (i) bubble wrapping key targets, (the extreme version of this being castling up), and (ii) keeping everything in reserve. With a bit of luck this list can counter that.
First of all I have pedro's orbital bombardment. That might just discourage (extreme) castling. However, depending on how big the bubble wrap/castle is, the 2 dreads and the sternguard have a reasonable chance of sweeping away the bubble wrap (twin heavy flamers, rapid firing sternguard) and still hitting the primary target (I suspect the key will be how deep the bubblewrap is, and what sort of scatter I get on the pods). You need to be selective about where you put the dreads down. The most important one is avoiding melta if at all possible (use the sternguard to hit the melta). When I get the dreads out the pods I can usually get cover from long range high strength weapons by making sure the pods are between me and the weapon. Besides, long range weapons (short of a rail gun) are not great at AV13. Worst case scenario is that I pop smoke and pray!
If everything is in reserve (or the castle is too big) that is when the" Fire Base" comes in.
I can pod in the sternguard and the tac squads first turn, rather than the dreads. The idea would be to get them on objectives (if that's the mission) and set up a fire base (all 3 squads are scoring thanks to pedro). I would try and keep the squads as close together as possible. In objective games it would be important to get the objectives close. This is why the sternguard have 2 Multi Meltas. Usually I would not swap the special ammo. However, it gives them more flexibility i.e. if they pod in first but are setting up a fire base, and not "alpha striking" they can set up and create a "no go" area for armour. It's also why there are plasma guns in the tac squads - better for the "fire base". In kill point games, the idea would be to control the midfield, again with the fire base. The fire base wouldn't be too shabby in assault either. The sternguard are vets and everybody would get one extra attack plus stubborn from Pedro. Pedro has a fist and the sergeants have power weapons. There are also 2 dreads coming down at some point, and an assault squad available to help out.
Finally, the Land Speeders and the assault squad give some needed mobility, making the list a little more flexible. There role is to support either the fire base or the alpha strike as necessary.
The 2 weaknesses are a lack of ranged anti vehicle and ranged anti infantry. I could swap our the assault squads and the land speeders for extra ranged support, but I thing the land speeders and the assault squad fit better.
HQ
Pedro Cantor
Elites
IC Dreadnaught, twin Heavy flamers, Drop Pod
IC Dreadnaught, 2 Hunter Killer Missiles, Drop Pod
10 Sternguard, 6 Combi Meltas, 2 Multi Meltas, Drop Pod
Troops
10 ManTac Squad, LazCannon, Plasma Gun, Power Weapon, Drop Pod
10 ManTac Squad, LazCannon, Plasma Gun, Power Weapon, Drop Pod
Fast Attack
10 Man Assault Squad, 2 Flamers, Power fist.
Land Speeder, Multi Melta, Heavy Flamer.
Land Speeder, Multi Melta, Heavy Flamer.
Sorry, long email.
What do you think?
David”
Unfortunately the pure Pod list is better. Whilst bubble-wrapping and reserving are good defensive techniques against Pod lists, I’m afraid your list doesn’t really compensate for that. A Dread Pod list can still deploy on foot and then start dropping Pods on your opponent as you move up-field but when you split your list between Pods and non-pods your opponent can pick your army apart easily. Pedro isn’t really a great choice either. Whilst he gives you 3-6 “scoring” units, his +1A bubble doesn’t make Marines good in combat and his orbital bombardment shouldn’t scare anyone.
If a pure Pod list is too expensive or not your cup of tea, I’d go with 1 or 3 pods rather than 5. This isn’t a sizable chunk of your army then but still offers you some flexibility in putting units like Dreadnoughts or Sternguard amongst your opponent’s lines. Pods really are an all or nothing type of unit and whilst the all approach has its weaknesses and isn’t a favourite of mine, it can work. The ‘firebase’ you speak of can also be done with the Pod list by dropping all the Marines in midfield (you can also change the heavy if you want for more reach).
8 pinkments:
Pure pod or bust.
It's like chaos demons. You're gonna deep strike, so might as well accept that.
Mister Kantor does pretty much nothing in the above list.
If you want pods, you want a master of the forge. Heavy support dreads in pods, and lots of sternguard with heavy flamers and melta goodness, landspeeders, mandatory tactical squads - that's it.
You don't have to pod in to take the offense, you know.
You can castle up somewhere important on the table, and taunt him to come to you.
I'm gonna disagree with VT2 and echo some of Kirby's thoughts based off of my own experiences running a highly mobile with DP support Space Wolf list at 1,750pts. Now, your approach is reasonable but what you fail to see is that you can run a strong pod army that is dual purpose with the pods being used to provide in your face threats whilst you have a long range support base already on the board, or moving in from your first turn.
The key to such a list is balance and survivability.
pair of podding in dreads into your opponents face means they have to use resources to deal with the buggers, but you can be even more of an arse and fork out the points to run them both as venerable dreads, only ever re-rolling destroyed/explosion results as anything else keeps them in the fight and a threat in your opponents face from the get go providing crucial distraction potential. Now, don't overlook a strong firebase on the ground either. a pair of auto-las preds for example gives more armoured support which can gradually push up in support and help bust armour.
...I'm about to get keyboard face so will sop right now, and get some sleep as the response isn't forming properly. Find a balance of on the board unis and firebase to start with as well as the drop pod elements, 3 or 5 pods, ditch the assault marines, they aren't too great as a whole and the points can be better spent elsewhere. A Librarian on bike packing vortex of doom and gate of infinity and who is also an epistolary is an interesting choice of support character whereas Kantor in this list is so so. Being able to teleport himself and units around the field at will and move 12 and unleash that swish str 10 blast shot is useful as. Perhaps run him with 2 or 3 Attack Bikes with Multi-melta's for a dedicated warp in/out melta charge of fun, group. :)
Running with the Sternguard approach, taking a pair of Multi-melta's in the squad means that
Splitting your army into two very distinct components - slow, vulnerable support somewhere, marine boyz elsewhere - isn't smart.
If you're gonna go for deep strike, go all the way. Don't do the opponent's work for him.
You have the option to bring your support in with the rest of your army, and should make use of it.
VT2, there is such thing as "synergy" you know. Many elements not necessarily obviously related, working together in concert to achieve a greater purpose then the sum of each individual part. Chuck in Suicide units and disruption...you know what, I can write an article on this to demonstrate the points!
What are you talking about?
Why would this need suicidal melta when it has sternguard squads, dreads, and 'speeders dropping?
Come back when you're not drunk, please.
Actually read my comments instead of looking and acting like a tool.
" VT2, there is such thing as "synergy" you know. Many elements not necessarily obviously related, working together in concert to achieve a greater purpose then the sum of each individual part. Chuck in Suicide units and disruption...you know what, I can write an article on this to demonstrate the points!"
It all came out of nowhere, but yes, I did read them.
I fail to see what anything you said had to do with anthing I said.
"VT2 said...
Splitting your army into two very distinct components - slow, vulnerable support somewhere, marine boyz elsewhere - isn't smart.
If you're gonna go for deep strike, go all the way. Don't do the opponent's work for him.
You have the option to bring your support in with the rest of your army, and should make use of it.
"
"Auretious Taak said...
VT2, there is such thing as "synergy" you know. Many elements not necessarily obviously related, working together in concert to achieve a greater purpose then the sum of each individual part. Chuck in Suicide units and disruption...
"
I'm disagreeing with what you are saying about DP armies only being viable as an all or nothing approach as well as with your statements of split distinctive elements and doing the work for your opponent. I'll endeavour to get an article written up in the next few days to expand on these points more directly.
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