Kirb your enthusiasm!


"Pink isn't a color. It's a lifestyle." - Chumbalaya
"...generalship should be informing list building." - Sir Biscuit
"I buy models with my excess money" - Valkyrie whilst a waitress leans over him

Wednesday, October 27, 2010

Blogs & Forums: Their own little Paradigms (with a PM from 40konline)

This idea has been kicking around in my head for a while and a recent PM got me to finish the article. You can see the PM snowmobiled and with further comments at the end but that's an aside to the main message of this post. Recently there have been a bunch of posts about forumitis and I'm sure the majority of readers here know about my personal distate for forums. Why? Because the majority of the time each forum has a specific paradigm they operate under. These can vary from thread to thread and forum to forum and take an extensive amount of effort to change. If we look at some of the tacticas on Warseer such as Tau, Tyranids and Space Marines and go through the backlog of posts, you'll find a fair amount by AbusePuppy, GWvsJohn and myself. Currently I'd say the Tau tactica is at a state where completely new players can go and get good tactical advice (as Sage spams links) and the Tyranids one is generally okay if you avoid the whining. Space Marines? Bunch of fail. It used to be alright when a couple of us worked on it to changed the paradigm (i.e. Tacticals and Space Marine HQs don't suck) but for the most part, it's now pretty bad.

The problem with forums (and quite a few blogs) appears to be there is always a dominate paradigm. Going against this paradigm will often develop into flame-wars and have moderators enter the discussion and start deleting things or get shouted down or just plain ignored. Now, 3++ certainly isn't exempt from this. However,whilst the majority of us here may believe in specific things (i.e. Orks are bad, Tau are good) but for the most part 3++ promotes discussion. Sure there are times when I'll get over arguing with a brick wall (such as GaleRazorwind) and not be very discussion oriented but for the most part the authors on this blog have different viewpoints and we will disagree. So will the readers. This isn't a bad thing as it promotes learning as long as it's done in a positive and constructive way. I feel forums and some blogs do not do this and rather lay down what they think is right and simply brow-beat others into submission or ignore others' views.

Yes there are exceptions but I feel quite a bit of the online community is stiffiling. We don't care if you think what we are saying is a load of crap, come here and explain to us why you think that. We will respond rationally and explain our position/why we think we are right or even agree with you (except Vt2, he'll just flame you :P). We don't know everything and don't proclaim to and by having other people question us or put forward their own positions, everyone learns. I don't like winning games because I knew more than my opponent. I like winning against an opponent just as good as me with a good list. I like losing against a good opponent with a good list too because I often learn things and have fun at the same time.

So what's the point of this post? It's a bit of forum bashing sure (and tooting the 3++ horn) but it's also a continuation of what MessangerOfDeath was saying before. We sit here and complain about the bad advice given on forums and even though we link to places like 3++, we don't actively discourage these paradigms. I'm not asking for forums/blogs to be all cuddly (hell I'd prefer a bit more leniance) but perhaps as MessangerOfDeath suggested, there is some way we can aim to dilute these paradigms. No I'm not looking for a paradigm shift, we'd then have the same problems, different paradigm. I'm looking for people who come online to be able to go anywhere and not get bad advice. This starts with what MVBrandt often talks about, not insulting 'the other side.' Again, call people out on what you believe are their mistakes or if they are wrong but let's quit the finger pointing and flaming so new players can be directed to good advice on any topic they desire (I'm not for example going to give people terrain modelling tips when my terrain sucks).

And to finish this discussion I thought I'd add a bit of humor in. BroLo's recent article took a look at a post on 40kOnline which enacted a rather snide reply from our favorite friend, Hyrmil. Unfortunately for us the mods got to it before I could copy it but luckily for us, Hyrmil got to my reply before they did and decided to send me a PM. From here on out all of my comments will be in blue as I snowmobile his PM (red are quotes from me he has quoted in his PM). Whilst this isn't the typical e-drama you see on 3++ I think it makes the point above in a somewhat roundabout way.


"I managed to see your comment before it was deleted, if you wish I have no problem discussing it with you. Oh you discuss? I thought you flamed, insulted, ridiculed and basically behaved like a child. Past evidence is against you.

Quote from: K1rby on Today at 10:36:44
I had to laugh at this. Same thing as when you didn't want to hear about blocking. Come comment again anytime, we love to laugh at your poor reading comprehension and requirement for swearing and insulting people.

For the sake of clarity, my last visit to your blog wasn't about blocking, nor about playing 40K. So basically you came to troll? Glad you admit though that your ’comments’ on the game were piss poor. It was about smurfy's poor behaviour and your mistake of encouraging his poor behaviour. Sorry Smurfy! Apparently I encouraged your poor behaviour and I control your actions! My visit was to demonstrate to you that people coming to your site simply to act like an ass isn't a good thing, Well that’s good because they don’t; see above. You sure demonstrated that you are an ass though. Let's also point out that Smrufy didn't join 40kOnline to be an ass. He was discussing a legit tactic and when people used fallacies against him as arguments, he got annoyed? Big whoop compared to what you did. given that you actually posted a public apology I was under the impression that you had understood this. A) what did I have to apologise for? Pointing out blocking is good and that your language was atrocious? B) what apology? C) I'm still waiting for your apology!

You appear to have forgotten your lesson. Sorry, mom.

Well for reference here’s the post Hymril is talking about. There are back links to everything there and let’s look at the behaviour of Smurfy and Hyrmil’s posts… Wow Hymril, off your high horse please. And ya, I deleted one his posts just like I said I would if he didn't actually post content rather than meaningless and insulting drivel. Go me.

Quote Kirby
In regards to BroLo's article since you're sniping at him here, maybe re-read the article? It's not an attack but rather thoughts out-loud. Sure BroLo pokes fun but he wasn't attacking Tarrin. Ask him yourself and maybe have an open mind for once, yes?

 I've not actually read the article, Then why did you insult him over it (whilst hiding on your little forum; sorry couldn‘t resist!)? and have no intention of spending more time on your blog. We don’t want you either, please stay away =). If Brolo wants to enter the discussion hes more than welcome to register for 40K Online and should he come and participate in the discussion I'd be happy to talk to him about it (as long as he conducts himself in a sensible and mature manner because you‘ve always shown yourself to do this *references comments from before*) and I'd be happy to discuss his opinions with him. :) I doubt BroLo wants to make an account there considering the amount of moderation (and not over the stupendously immature comments you post up here but over any little thing) and lack of sense going on there. I like moc from 40kO, that’s about all I can nicely say about it."

Okay back to me with black writing! This is a long-winded explanation of what I was trying to say TL;DR = Pink rulez! lol. So 3++ has now had two 'encounters' with 40kOnline and both of them have involved Hyrmil and him trying to insult something. Now harking back to the blocking fiasco, sure Smurfy could of behaved better and a couple of us told him that (was that my public apology? lol) but at the same time there were some people (such as moc) who came here and discussed blocking. He may or may not have believed blocking is as effective as we were proposing but he didn't jump around swearing and ridiculing everything with a pulse like Hyrmil did. Same thing here with BroLo's article. He wasn't picking a fight, he was quite honestly confused by what Tarrin was encouraging and put down his views (well that's what I feel he has done anyway) which you then insulted in a roundabout way. BroLo doesn't have an account on 40kOnline and has an outlet to speak his mind here. Why would he go make an account there just to argue and most likely be shut down like MagicJuggler when he can create a discussion here?

This is a prime example of the paradigm I am talking about. Most places have it. I encourage 3++ not to have it. Yes we have a 'fixation' on playing the game competitively but the majority of individuals who write for this blog (there's more than 10 which gives an excellent array of viewpoints) also are extreme hobbyists. I've also made an effort to get two new authors who are excellent hobbyists in Koopa and Rupert and shock horror, they enjoy playing the game, too. My biggest example of 3++ not having this paradigm would be between Nathan Fluger and most of the authors here (not Vt2 :P lol). A lot of people who read 3++ don't believe Orks are very competitive (and quite a few of the authors who write about them, play them) but Nathan doesn't agree with this and yet for the most part, the conversations over Orks between us have been civil and informative for both sides. Any newbie who walks in has a literal gold mine of information that isn't tainted by swearing and bickering (for the  most part). Nathan now comes back here often and provides his viewpoint on other things and I certainly don't always agree with him, but I'd rather discuss it with him than him simply beating his own path or raging about it.

To reiterate the point of this post: I feel most forums and blogs have a specific paradigm they operate from within. Whether it's Orks are good, Mech is great, anyone using a balanced list is WAAC, or whatever, this generally stiffles discussion, learning and the furthering of our hobby. 3++ isn't perfect and this happens sometimes here but in general I feel the posts here are designed for discussion and disagreement. 3++ has multiple authors with multiple viewpoints. I don't agree with them all the time and that's good because it promotes discussion which importantly isn't childish.

So to my fellow authors on 3++ and readers who challenge us and encourage everyone to think and discuss the games we love, I thank you. To those who don't, I encourage you to try.

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