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"Pink isn't a color. It's a lifestyle." - Chumbalaya
"...generalship should be informing list building." - Sir Biscuit
"I buy models with my excess money" - Valkyrie whilst a waitress leans over him

Sunday, March 13, 2011

Email in: Chaos list

"Hey Kirby,

I only recently discovered 3++ and i have to say i got kind of addicted to it. The amount and quality of the every day content is impressive. Having seen that You de
al with lots and lots of army lists i thought You could take a look at my 1750 army list.
Kharn - 165
Lash Sorc - 125

4 Termies with combi - melta - 140 (used for termicide and most
importantly for u
nlocking a Land raider)

9 Berzerkers - 189 (the zerkers ride with Kharn in the Land raider bought for the termies)
7 Plague marines with 2 plasmas - 191
10 CSM with 2 meltas - 170
2x rhino - 70

Heavy Support
2x Oblits - 150
2x Oblits - 150
Defiler - 150
Dedicated Land Raider - 220

So that's the base. I have 30 more points for upgrades. I u
sed to change some things in the list to see how certain units would be affected; e.g. dropping one zerker and replacing the lash sorc with a khorne lord with a daemon weapon to ride with kharn - to make an uber death star. But the dice gods can be a bitch with the deamon weapon roll. Plus i found the S4 of the lord to be a problem. So for moste of the time the sorc stays. It's a small army so lash is mostly used for slowing the enemy assault units which could have no problem with decimating my entire units.

In some games I found that it's nice to give the termicide unit the mark of Slaneesh. I know they are a disposable unit and sinking points in them seems irrational, but after they blow up the thing they were sent to destroy the I5 helps in the opponents assault phase when the termies have a chance to strike first or simultaneously. I should also add that i play in a mostly marine environment. So the termicide usually goes to hunt Land raider, and it is always nice when they can take a bite of the enemy deathstar unit after wrecking their ride. I should probably excuse for all the mistakes made in this letter, English is my second language, i hope it didn't made your eyes bleed ;). I would be thankful for any advice You could give me.


Ps. Your Tau unit review made me think of buying a battleforce. Do You think I should go for it or mayby wait for the new codex? There is always a chance that the new dex might make half the units in the battleforce not worth it. I kind of got sick of painting and playing with power armour and need something different. "

Hey Peter. You get a reply of me, instead of Kirby. But don't worry, after all Kirby wouldn't let a random scrub answer an email as that would damage his blog. Well maybe he would... That aside, I actually played them the last years which has its advantages. I'm assuming you want to have an opinion from a more or less competitive point of view. Why else would you email Kirby without specifying yourselves right?

First thing I notice is that your list is a bit all over the place. 3 different kind of troops, 3 different kind of heavy support, 2 different HQ's.... That's usually
not a good a sign and in this case it's indeed not effective. Let us see where it goes wrong.

Land Raiders are not that good in the Chaos codex and decent oppenents shouldn't trouble with 1 coming at them. Therefore I would advice against taking 1. If really like lists with a Land Raider though, consider a list with 2 or 3. (2x Prince, 2x Land Raider with Berzerkers, 3 Oblits and 2 or 3 Plague Marines with meltas in rhinos is a good setup for this)
Another problem is that it's a dedicated transport for your Terminators. This means you cannot start with the Berzerkers and Khârn inside it... Annoying and really annoying during Dawn of War. Avoid these kind of things, really.

I dislike Defilers, for 2 reasons: Defilers themselves aren't that good (huge slow Av12 model makes it easy to avoid/kill) and they aren't Obliterators... The last one kills them, why? Because you need Obliterators. You need the Lasscanons and Multimeltas they give you. 3x2 Obliterators (when not running a Land Raider list) is the minimum you should have at 1500 points or more.

The HQ section... I prefer Deamon Princes in every kind of list. I don't care how good Khârn or a Lash sorcerer might be, they don't add stand-alone targets on the board. Deamon Princes do. When you give them Mark of Nurgle it's like you're fielding extra vehicles, really. How's that? Because they cannot be killed efficiently by small arms fire only. The fact that they are pretty fast with wings and killy means you can force your oppenent to deal with them. Yes they die, always almost. Isn't that bad? I mean, Khârn can hide in a squad right? Yeah, but his rhinos will get blown up now and his squad soon after. Princes are cheap/durable enough to use for them the 'bulletsponge' role.
If you don't want to run Princes, go with either a Lash sorcerer or Khârn, not both. (so you limit the damage basicly...)

The troop choices. Berzerkers should have a Powerfist Champion, always and no exceptions either. 3A Ws5 Powerfists are actually pretty good. Well they make Berzerkers as a whole a lot more usefull/better at least. Yes, also when you decide to keep Khârn as that doesn't change anything about the damage output of the Powerfist. Also: You want to split Khârn from the squad many times.

Plague Marines. If you go for 7 man; I would usually take a Powerfist. The squad is durable/large enough now to justify the cost of it. Other option is reducing the squad to 5 man as those 2 extra man don't add much. (don't take a Powerfist in this case of course)
I don't like the regular Marines either as you pay for 10 man, but they are still stuck with Ld9 and little combat ability. Either add a Icon of Chaos Glory and maybe a champion with Powerfist (and optional combie), or change them to 5 Plague Marines with 2 meltaguns as those do the meltajob much cheaper.

Termicide: No really don't. I understand there are situations you wish you had I5, but trust me there will be many games where you wish you did not pay for it... Try to avoid Termicide actually; it's overcosted. If you want them though; take 2 squads of 3 for more reliability. 1 squad fails too easily. (reserve rolls, scatter, not doing damage)

All in all focus your list and optimise some setups. I'm not going to give you a list which I think you should run as I don't know what exactly you want. Feel free to ask for more help though, or further explainations if certain things are not clear. (or when you disagree of course, that's an option too I guess heh)

About Tau: Ironicly enough I was planning to start Tau too some months ago. In the end I changed my mind and sold the models I did bought (VT2 his fault!). Why? Well I didn't really like it in the end that they only had 1 kind of (good) list setup. And even that list has problems due to the tournament setups. Because what's the deal in most tourneys: You gotta win big, especially against 'lesser' players. This often means you gotta claim 3 or 4 objectives and or lose very little kill-points. Especially the objective part is a problem when 2 out of 3 troops their role is dying...(Kroot are a layer of defense, sacrificing themselves for the greater good).

I don't know how relevant this is for you though. They do have a unique kind of playing style... and it might quite some time before they get a new codex so if you really like them go for it I guess. When in doubt: Don't!

Cheers, Zjoekov

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