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"Pink isn't a color. It's a lifestyle." - Chumbalaya
"...generalship should be informing list building." - Sir Biscuit
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Wednesday, June 30, 2010

Email in: Could you spare a few minutes to look at my list? [2k/1750 Vanilla Marines]

"Howdy Kirby (Will)!

I recently (a few days ago) found your blog and have been reading with a great deal of interest. Thank you for explaining concepts like blocking and wrapping. It is refreshing to see someone that actually puts a bit of thought into what he says before letting fly a hyperbolic tirade of bullshit. I have been fed so much crap over the last few weeks that I really was considering not playing 40K ever again. But enough with the brown-nosing; I came here to ask for advice.

I am going to start playing 40K again, albeit infrequently. I am figuring less than once a month and probably closer to once every couple of months. I need to build a 2000 point army for casual games. The LGS had a fairly casual tourney at 1750 recently, and I would like to participate in those too. I don’t need to win; I just need to not be in last place. I am taking the core out of my retired 3rd edition Deathwing army to start my new one because I am lazy, cheap, and love my Termies and Land Raiders.

Librarian (TA+SS, Null Zone, and maybe Gate?)

Terminator Assault Squad (x10 TH/SS)
Land Raider Crusader (MM)

Heavy Support
Land Raider

That’s 1050 already! So now I have to try and make the rest of my army resilient as possible while being able to pour the hurt on very quickly. What I currently have is:

Tactical Squad x10 (Flam, MM, Rhino)
Tactical Squad x10 (Flam, MM, Rhino)
Tactical Squad x10 (Flam, MM, Rhino)

Fast Attack
2 x Land Speeder (MM, HFlam)
2 x Land Speeder (MM, HFlam)

This leaves me with 55 points for Extra Armor, or whatever. I conceived this list from all of the excellent advice I got from 40KOnline and Warseer.

Haha! Just kidding… I actually read a ton of your articles and posts as well as stuff from B&C and, to a lesser extent, BoLS. Anyway, here was my reasoning, so please tell me if I am on the right track or wildly off the mark:

From what I gather, and please realize that I have not played since 3rd edition, is that three Troops is a little on the low side at 2000 points, but with the rest of the army there should be enough to draw an opponent’s fire to more immediate threats. Also, my first attempt at this list had only one, lone LR full of Termies. What I read here is that I should have two, even at the high premium in points. One LR would be too easy to counter, and would leave my army nutless should it get taken out too early. The Librarian is likely over-dressed for the occasion; he should probably lose the Termie suit as it isn’t really contributing much.

I had a few other questions too. Would Vulcan be worth slotting into my army? At 190 points he seems like a rocking piece of hardware, but to use him I would lose either Speeders or some Troops or both. Also, I can probably dump the ‘nilla LR for another Crusader, but that leaves me with no guns that reach out farther than 24 inches, should I? Will this army be competitive enough to not embarrass me? I don’t mind getting beaten, but I don’t exactly want to get roflstomped either. I understand that winning is a result of generalship, but a list full of fail will do poorly no matter what I do. What should I do to pare it down to 1750?

In 3rd edition I basically ran ‘nilla LRs, lots of shooty Dreads, and shooty Termies. I am really excited over fielding close combat Termies and charging into battle!

Thanks for taking time to read my email and look at my list, I hope to hear from you.


These are the type of e-mails I love. There is a lot of understanding there and this makes me a happy chook (please don't squeeze me :|). Glad you like the blog as well Steve. I do try to use Dethtron's blog as my venting station :P. Do you  happen to play in Australia btw? Anyway, your initial analysis on your army is pretty much spot on and you've explained the reasoning for 2x Raiders. Problem is at 1750...well you've identified the complete lack of support as well, especially in Troops. At 2000 in this type of list, 3 Troops is too many. If the opponent wants to target your Troops, they can. Those Terminators can and will crush face if ignored. This is why you take 2 (beyond the fact that 1 is easy to block/negate). At 1750 if you want to run 2x Terminators you're running an imbalanced list I'm afraid as there just isn't enough support. Sooner or later you'll come up against Mech Eldar or Tau and they'll be able to negate your support whilst avoiding your Terminators. If you're willing to take this risk @ 1750, that's fine (you'll also be called all sorts of names for using 10x TH/SS terminators at 1750 points. You have my permission to stick them with any point object you may find lying about).

So, we'll take your army list you posted and immediately drop the Termie Armor & SS on the Libby + a Tac squad and replace the Godhammer LR w/another Crusader (or Redemeer if you wish) and plop an MM on it. THose Raiders also need EA. This leaves us at 1740 points and we are in need of some ranged support. At 2000pts this is generally in the form of AC/LC Preds or Rifleman Dreadnoughts but we can't afford those and have speeders. What we'll do then is replace the 4x MM/HF speeders w/3x Typhoons leaving us at 1730 pts (2 combi-meltas or flamers on the Tac sarges and 1750 pat). This gives the list a bit of suppression fire on the move from T1 whilst maintaining some blocking ability. I again think this list runs much better at 2000 but if you're set on Raiders & Termies...I think that's the best way to go. If you weren't set on Raiders & termies but rather just Termies...well we can do something like this:

Libby w/Null Zone & Gate
10x TH/SS Terminators
2x Rifleman Dreads
2x Flamer/MM/Rhino Tacs
2x MM/HF Speeders
1x Typhoon Speeder
3x AC/LC Predators

This keeps your Terminator wall as a bubblewrap which is damn scary and has a lot of downfield firepower through the Dreads/Speeders/Tacs/Preds akin to a more balanced mech list for SM. You don't have the Land Raiders but I think it's a lot more viable a build @ 1750 than dual Raiders.

5 pinkments:

Anonymous said...

Thanks a lot man!

Nopers, I am not an Aussie. I am a SoCal valley boy that refuses to grow up.

So at 2000 points you would drop a Tac Squad? That's pretty scary; at that point level I expect my opponents to have the ability to eradicate 20 marines at will. But since I haven't painted the third squad yet, it doesn't cause me any pain to drop 'em. So that leaves me with 260 points to spare after upgrading to an LRC and giving the tanks Extra Armor. What would you spend that on?

You didn't mention Vulcan, so I am assuming that he isn't worth his cost in this army. I am torn as I have a raging boner for his MC'ed Thunderhammer and TL'ed Flamer rules, but he costs damn near as much as a Land Raider and I know I need moar(!) dakka, not a pimpin' IC that makes what I already have a little bit better.

Your suggestion for the army at 1750 points is a helluva lot more viable than two LRCs; what a difference 250 points makes! In fact, it looks a lot like your SM armylist on this site, but with some Termies thrown in. However, as much as I appreciate it, and I know that you are suggesting optimal point/value units (Rifleman Dreads and AC Preds), I just can't bring myself to field it. Why would I choose to field a sub-optimal list? Well…

Your suggestion of losing the Tac Squad at 2000 points has gotten me all pumped to drop the hammer (OMG, a pun?) on some xeno scum. I mean, how much more balls out can an army be to run all those Termies in LRs and then support them with the bare minimum Troops choices? That tiny deletion has turned my army into a rabid pitbull on crack! I can hear Wagner's "Flight of the Valkyries" in my mind right now as I imagine squadrons of Speeders screaming outta the sky and spraying the enemy with gouts of flame and melta-death as two Crusaders full of the emperor's finest weather a shitstorm of enemy fire while charging into battle! I am so fired up at the prospect that I would be eating my keyboard if I didn’t need it to type run-on sentences!

And that is why I will never win any tourneys. To me, 40K is a game best played after a couple doubles of scotch and with a sweet narrative. I make the pew-pew noises for my guns when I roll the dice, and grin like a maniac when I assault (even when I know I am gonna lose)! Please don’t think for even a moment that I don’t appreciate the 1750 point advice. I will be much happier getting faced at a tourney, but knowing that a decision of mine caused it, rather than holding my ass in my hands and wondering WTF happened. Also, I have some rare genetic disorder that causes me to roar out loud when my Dreads charge into combat, and for that reason I find it sacrilegious to field them sans DCCW. That said, I do have a few old school Preds and about 6 different Dreads to choose from should I tire of being rolled.

Wow, sorry for the long-winded post! All this just to ask what you suggest for the 260 unused points at the 2000 point level, and what you think of Vulcan!


Kirby said...

I can't believe those Termie pics aren't getting love! They rock. I'm buying those shields for my termies. Anyway... love your post lol. Reminds me of Time Splitters 2 and Goldeneye on the 64. My friends and I always joked I did the soundbytes for the weapon noise unlock because I'd run around going pewpewpew rataratarata BOOM with whatever gun I had lol.

In regards to Vulkan; take him if you don't have a libby. It's one, or the other. At 2500 you could take both but at 2000 and less you're just that strapped for points. Null Zone is often much more worth it (oh hi Seer council) due to your Termie munchingness.

@2000 pts I'd add in AC/LC Preds, Typhoon Speeders or Dreadnoughts. You've already got Speeders so I'd go fro either RifleDreads or AC/LC Preds and since you don't like Dreads w/o CCW go for AC/LC Preds. You can grab 2 and stick another Terminator in the non-Libby squad transport.

I want bat reps of you yelling as you charge please :).

Smurfy said...

Hey, I'm in SoCal. We can meet up!

Where be you?

Anonymous said...

Hey Smurf! Sorry I didn't respond sooner.

I live in Woodland Hills. At the moment only game with my friends, but if I were to play anywhere else it'd probably be the new Game Ogre in Northridge. My boys just got a new basecoat, so they aren't ready to hit the field just yet anyway.

@Kirby: Thanks man! I pretty much agree with your assessment; I guess I just wanted a second opinion. As much as it pains me, I guess I will just go with the Dreads as they look so much cooler and shoot better on the move. I will hit up Google for some easy/cheap TLAC kitbashes; do you have any suggestions?


Kirby said...

Find an IG player and force them to part with their infantry ACs :P. That's what I use for mine, then use a bit of greenstuff and plasticard to form the armor around the guns and walla! You can also get these on ebay pretty cheaply although the AEGIS defense kits look better if done right.

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