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Wednesday, July 28, 2010

Scott asks.... flamers?


Well, for my own big-myself-upness I'm going to say I got my first request for list advice in this mighty fine post here...


Scott R asked,

"I play a Razorspam TL-LCx3 with 2 plasma, 1 melta in the squads, 2 vinds, an HQ squad in a HB Razor, full tac with lascannon in a Rhino, and a squad of vets with ccw/bp and a melta also in a rhino.
Should I paint up some flamers and add them in instead of the plasma rifles in the three 5 man squads (to capitalize on the fact I have 8 tanks that can tank shock).

Then sent his list


"command squad 3rd co. 210 105 points base, 1x pf +25, 1x pw +15, melta +10, apoth +20, comp. champ +25, standard +10, option of Reclusiam standard is 5 more points. 210

force commander 3rd co. 130 pair of lightning claws+30 130

tactical squad 3/1 100 90 base, 5 man squad, melta gun+10 100
tactical squad 3/2 125 5 man squad, melta gun, vet sgt with powerfist 125
tactical squad 3/3 105 5 man squad, plasma rifle, 105
Tactical squad 3/4 210 90 base, 75 ten man, multi-melta, melta gun, vet sgt with power fist 210

Veterans Squad (generic) 3/1V 165 3x power weapon, melta gun, 9 vets total 180
3rd Company chaplain 115 100 base +15 plasma pistol 115
Techmarine (generic) 3/I 90 plasma pistol, servoarm 90
Razorback (twinlinked Las) 3 85 stm bolter 85
Razorback (twinlinked Las) 3 85 stm bolter 85
Razorback (twinlinked Las) 3 85 stm bolter 85
Razorback (HB) 3 55 50 base, stm bolter 55
Rhino 3 40 stm bolter 40
Rhino 3 40 stm bolter 40
Vindicator 3 135 stm bolter, dozer blade 135
Vindicator 3 135 stm bolter, dozer blade 135
TOTAL : 2000"

And added

@Kirb/et. al- any thoughts on the usefulness of tank shock to bunch your opponent when using weapons that scatter and are high enough strength to damage your own tanks (other than: be really really careful...)

For instance, other considerations aside, would something like a Griffon or a Shadow Weaver be a better back up for a mech heavy army than demolisher cannon or D cannon?


Well, I admitted in the post that I wasn't incredibly familiar with DArk Angels, but as Kirby is busy getting flamed over on WargamerAU (guys... read his posts btw! There is no nerd/e-rage, it's called thoughts, why not take it as honest feedback?) I picked up the codex and decided to attempt to earn my keep! I also play 4th Ed. Marines... how hard could it be?

As a simple answer to your question Scott, I'd have to say, almost definitely not. With 2 Vindicators stalking your opponents lines, I would say the last thing you need is to throw some of your own AV11 transports and power-armoured marines into the mix. On top of that your razorbacks have 48" range, so there is little point in playing into your opponents hands and dumping them on his lap, just to add in some flamer templates.

Compare your list to say this,or this over on YTTH. The first one in particular doesn't have a weapon in it with a range over 12". The tanks are supposed to get up close and personal, drop the melta boys off and then flame the contents of the wreck you've just created. Sisters' Immo spam also does this nicely. None of the above lists would work well with vindicators as the risk to your own troops are just far too high.

With regards to your list, I'm not sure if you're looking for advice or just specifically at whether you should add in some flamers? To save a second post, I'll just throw in my thoughts on your list. It's difficult to comment as I'm not sure whether you are determined to get the vindicators to work, or you're set on sticking with your command squad, so I'll try to keep it general.

So looking at what you have in terms of first turn firepower, 3 twin-linked lascannons. That's pretty much it. I'm pretty certain there isn't a 'competitive' list out there that would be concerned about this volume of 'alpha-strike'. Beyond that, it just seems a bit of a hodge-podge of upgrades and weapons that doesn't really come together. With regards to the vindies, I'm not sure why you opted for them, but I personally think they suck. I mainly play BTs, which enables me to take PotMS on them, but still think they suck. With only a 24" range they'll find themselves in the midfield, which begs for side armour shots. With only a single gun and limited range/arc of fire, any roll on the vehicle damage table nerfs it and a 3+ pretty much makes it useless.

You use the term razorspam, which to me sounds like you're open to the idea of 'optimising' your list so let's have a look at what DA could 'razorspam' at 2k...

*Damn this codex sucks!* Even though you got yours after BT, I seriously hope you get a new one first, cus this is just bad. I feel for you man! I thought this was going to be easy... even Stelek says..."Now while the Dark Angel and Black Templar lists do not, at first glance, appear to be capable of MSU shooty mech builds--they are indeed capable of it."

HQ - Librarian - 120

Command Squad - 2 meltaguns - 125
Rhino - 35

Dreadnought - T-L autocannon, Missile Launcher - 135

Dreadnought - T-L autocannon, Missile Launcher - 135

Dreadnought - T-L autocannon, Missile Launcher - 135

Troop - Tactical Squad, flamer - 95
Transport - Razorback - T-L LC - 80

Troop - Tactical Squad, flamer - 95
Transport - Razorback - T-L LC - 80

Troop - Tactical Squad, flamer - 95
Transport - Razorback - T-L LC - 80

Troop - Tactical Squad, flamer - 95
Transport - Razorback - T-L LC - 80

Inquisitorial Storm Troopers (WH) - 2 meltaguns -70
Chimera - Heavy flamer, Heavy flamer, smoke launchers - 88

Inquisitorial Storm Troopers (WH) - 2 meltaguns -70
Chimera - Heavy flamer, Heavy flamer, smoke launchers - 88

Heavy Support - Predator - Heavy Bolter Sponsons - 95

Heavy Support - Predator - Heavy Bolter Sponsons - 95

Heavy Support - Predator - Heavy Bolter Sponsons - 95

1998

Well....this is a bit more like DA razorspam that can still function. It's only got 4 razorbacks, but you now have 6 troops, 7 AV11/12 hulls, 3 AV13 hulls and 3 AV12 walkers. First turn firepower will be 4 T-L las, 6 autocannons (3 of which are T-L) and 3 missiles. When push come to shove, you have 3 dual melta units, 8 flamer templates and some psychic defence. It doesn't match-up to those nasty Las/T-L Plas razor lists that SM/SW(and probably BA) can put out and it still needs a lot more work, but like I said, I'm pretty unfamiliar with DA. The flamer squads need not approach in the early part of the game, just after you've crippled your opponents vehicles. As per most MSU lists, each and every part of it means very little to you, but there is plenty of it.

Hope that helps.

Dreadnought by Tim @ The Vanus Temple

5 pinkments:

Kirby said...

Love the dread =p. Looks like a solid list in terms of DA but this list is just done better by the other variants if Scott really wishes to change. They are green but use another codex's rules :p.

Goodjob BroLo on your 1st request!

Brother Loring said...

Thank you Kirby! At least somebody cares! <3

I was surprised at how bad the codex was. It was quite sad actually. I really hope they get an update soon and a decent one at that. I'll never complain about my BT one until DA are redone.

Well... I hope you read it Scott.... best of luck!

Scott R said...

Agree about my codex being horrible. To start with, what's up with no FAQ or Errata closing the storm shield gap? I'm still 4+! @)(#%$&@#*!!! TH/Nerf-shield DA Termies. And the veteran unit is just awful, frankly.

That being said, I'm just finishing up painting this list, which I started on deployment in Bagdad in 2006. It's been a busy decade for the US Army.

I am pretty dedicated to making the vindicators work, considering all the freehand work I've done on their paint jobs, but I agree they aren't as effective as I thought when I bought three of them.

I don't have any Predators, and I wasn't really going for Alpha Strike, completely agree that this list wouldn't do that. I've been pleased with how the Veteran assault squad performs in action.

Surprised by the Witchhunters inclusion... I actually have three units of stormtroopers with melta guns in chimeras I could run. Good idea, I might use that one.

Next up on my painting table are drop pods, so I can drop in my dreads, first thing I'm planning to swap into this list.

Thanks for the feedback! Great ideas. I'll not be painting up flamers to sub into this list then, I'll just keep the longer range plasma guns as being more in keeping with the TL-LC Razors role.

Too bad they made the Las-plas combo illegal between editions (several years), those TL-LC Razors used to be Las/Plas and I chopped them and switched the guns out and repainted to make them legal.

The_King_Elessar said...

Personally, I think you SHOULD stay a 4+ SS save, but only for internal consistency. What is in the Codex, and nothing else, should be what you need to play.

Stupid bloody Night Spinner, doesn't actually SAY 'Codex-Legal' people ASSUME they can use it, I call BS...stupid Home Rules in Disguise...

Scott R said...

Oh, and my concept with this list has been long range shooting/later turn objective grabbing with the combat squads riding in them from the TL-LC razors, with an assault element comprised of both the veterans in a rhino w/ Chaplain, and Command squad w/ FC w/ a pair of Lightning claws.
I put the Techmarine in as an experiment to see if he can make the Vindicators more resilient. I have low hopes for this, but I like the model.
The full tac squad is meant to be my mobile reserve, and to act as a screen for the Vindicators to attempt to keep assaults off of them.

In the very few games that I've played so far, the veterans have actually performed really well.

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