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Monday, August 2, 2010

Email in: Tyranids, FAQ screwed up my list, what to do next?

"Hi Kirby,

I just discovered your blog this week and I like it. I'm very impressed with the amount of effort that you put into your replies which is why I've decided to write to you for help.

I bought a new Tyranid army in January and modeled it after Stelek's Nidzilla drop list from Yes The Truth Hurts. Although a scaled down and altered version of the list isn't exactly competitive, it still works fairly well at my LGS because the players there don't normally play really competitive lists. It still had some problems no doubt, but it was fun. The problems mainly popped up when 2 of the monsters wouldn't show up on turn 2. Then the dreaded FAQ came out and took away my +2 to reserve rolls for 2 tyrants with hive commander which pretty much busts the army because it will increase the number of times that key units won't come in with the rest.

So I need some help in how to change up my army so it will work again at 1500 points. When it comes to spending more money VS less, I would rather spend less. Also, I am looking to make the list about 80% competitive so it doesn't have to be perfect.

Here is the list I was using:

Hive Tyrant w/ scything talons, hive commander, heavy venom cannon
Hive Tyrant w/ scything talons, hive commander, heavy venom cannon

2X Zoanthropes in a pod
2X Zoanthropes in a pod

8 Genestealers (bare)
16 Termigants (bare)
18 Hormigaunts w/ toxin sacs

Trygon (bare)
Trygon (bare)

Here are the models I already own:

2 Hive Tyrants
2 Trygons
4 Zoanthropes
8 Genestealers
28 Termigants
20 Hormigaunts
3 Warriors that aren't built

And you need some pictures so you can see that I've actually put some effort into the army:

Thanks for any help you are willing to provide.


Hey Termite. First off, nice army! Secondly, thanks for the compliment. So to the army. @ 1500 points this style of list is hard enough and with the FAQ going all no-no on these style of lists...well you're sitting at '80% competitive' already unfortunately. But let's see if we can't keep it as sublime as possible whilst still maintaining the ability to compete. The style of list is pretty spot on outside of the Hormas & Termagants who can't both Outflank anymore *sadface.* So let's drop those and a Tyrant and see if we can afford a Tervigon, 3rd Trygon and some Genestealers. Firstly this means Wings for the Tyrant I'm afraid as we want him to DS in with the Genes/Tervigon outflanking. Let's first see how many points you saved by dropping the Tyrant and Gants as I don't think we're going to have enough.

444 pts we've got and 60 of those are going into Wings for the Tyrant, so prob not enough for the Tervigon as well and that wouldn't work anyways as the Gant squad would come on from your board edge. Damn. So let's drop 230 points on another Trygon and add Adrenal to all 3 Trygons meaning we've got 154 points left. Not much. 8x Genestealers are 112 points and whilst we'd like 3 squads to help with Outflank that may be the best we can do. Okay here's what we'll do. The 3rd Trygon shall be dropped in favor of a Mawloc. Whilst no where near as impressive as a Trygon it saves us 40 pts and allows for some token disruption to annoy castling and push tanks closer to our Beasties. This gives you enough points to get some Gants, either 16 strong Termagants, 13 strong Hormagaunts or 10 strong Toxingaunts. Without a Tervigon I'd go for the 10 strong Toxingaunts. This leaves us with:

Hive Tyrant w/lash whip, bone sword, HVC, Hive Commander, Wings
2x2 Zoans in Spore
2x8 Genestealer
10x Hormagaunts w/Toxin sacs
2x Trygon w/Adrenal Sacs

1498 points w/6 MCs (2 spores) & 30 infantry

Not the strongest list and is a bit weak on the shooting front and would work much better at higher points but nothing to sneeze at. Keeps the theme you listed before whilst removing the redundency of 2x Tyrants. The only real way to make a top notch reserve list these days is with a Swarmlord + Tyrant which is only really viable at 2500+ due to the expense you are putting into your HQs. You'll have to buy another Trygon kit for this list and some Genestealers but you should be able to get both pretty cheaply off ebay or Wayland.

9 pinkments:

VT2 said...

Go up to 2k instead, so your tyranids start to function.
It's not fun knowing that you're forced to play with a hand tied behind your back.

Chumbalaya said...

Reliable drop nids at 1500 is just not gonna happen. Kirbs' is about as good as you can get.

Going forward, Swarmy is a good addition. Re-rolling outflank dice is handy for stealers. Run him up with Tervy support and either go for Trygons or dakka fexes popping up with Zoanthrope support.

Evil-Termite said...

Thanks for the reply Kirby. What you are talking about makes a lot of sense for getting the drop list working. I will have to proxy it out a couple of times to see if it works at my game store. I always liked using my genestealers too so buying another box sounds good to me! And I suspected I was going to have to buy a third trygon kit eventually.

As Chumbalaya noted (and I fear), reliable drop nids won't happen at 1500 points. When I wrote in I meant to ask what type of list I could change to that wasn't a drop list. After rereading my original question I can see that I didn't accurately describe what I was looking for. Oops.

So if you, or one of your awesome blog followers, has a little time to also let me know what sort of non drop list will work at 1500 points that uses a lot of the models I already have I would greatly appreciate it. Like I said in my email, I'm ok with buying some new kits. After all, I did get some birthday money this summer. : )

Borkai said...

Hi Termite,

I have seen quite a few conversions of warriors into HiveGuard, you could convert your unmade warriors as HG to support a fot list. I admit the conversions aren't as cool as the real model which is rather expensive, but you did say your funds weren't limitless. Another thing to consider might be a single tyrant guard, as the cover save for a foot tyrant would also be nice (half the squad has 4+ from the gaunt screen, therefore the whole squad gets it).

The wings are very nice on the tyrant giving you enough movement to support your deep strikers, so I probably wouldn't worry about the tyrant guard unless you were going to get tervigons and run a strong midfield.

Chumbalaya said...

Convert Warriors into HG then drop Trygons on somebody's head with Genestealer support.

Tyrant w/ dual devourers, Hive Commander
Tyrant Guard w/ lash whip
3x 2 Hive Guard
2x 7 Genestealers w/ toxin, Broodlord
2x 10 Termagants or a bigger unit of Hormagauns
2x Trygons w/ adrenal glands

Tyrant and HG can suppress light armor at range while the Stealers and Trygons come in to munch stuff. Tervigons are an obvious addition here for bigger games, as is replacing the Tyrant with the Swarmlord.

Evil-Termite said...

The list you are describing actually looks like it should work out all right. Thanks for taking the time to reply. And it looks fun too because it still involves monstrous creatures and some good assaulty stuff. And for buying models it looks like about $125 at the warstore, and that's buying actual hive guard models. Do you have any experience yourself with a list like this?

Zoanthropes don't work well on foot do they? BLA! Well, I suppose I can just have my 1500 foot list and a 2K drop list. I'm starting to feel a little better about my nids and some motivation to actually play them.

I'm kind of surprised that no one has said anything about running mawlocs instead of trygons. Is it that they just don't have the killing power? They seem like they would do well for taking objectives and such at the end of the game.

AbusePuppy said...

You could run a drop list at 1500, but do so with the understanding that you'll sometimes be at the mercy of your reserve dice. Deathleaper or a set of Lictors can mitigate this somewhat, but DL takes a LOT of finesse to run, so you may have some trouble with him.

Hormagaunts need to be taken either in very large (20+) squads or not at all; otherwise, they simply kill off a couple models and die to No Retreat.

Chumb's list looks pretty decent, but it's a bit light on scoring units (2x10 Termagants isn't a lot to kill off). He is very correct about Hive Guard- it's very easy to convert them from Tyranid Warriors, just google it up. His list is more of a foot/drop hybrid than pure foot or anything.

Mawlocs are, as you note, very lacking in killing power. (Mawloc on the charge: ~2 wounds. Trygon on the charge: ~6 wounds. And he gets to swing on your turn and your opponent's.) The ability of the Mawloc to contest objectives is cute, but you'd rather be devastating your opponent's forces than trying to stave them off. He also has no protection against mishapping onto terrain, which is awkward at times.

For a more drop-oriented list at 1500 pts, I might recommend something like this:

1 Hive Tyrant (HVC, Hive Commander, Wings)
2 Zoeys (Pod)
2 Zoeys (Pod)
1 Trygon (Adrenal)
1 Trygon (Adrenal)

This leaves us with 540pts to spend on troops. You could go with 2x10 Termagants and 2x Tervigon (Catalyst, Toxin, Regen) and have 10 pts left over for Adrenal on one Tervi or some other upgrade. If you don't want to buy/convert the 'Fexes, 8 Genestealers (Broodlord, Toxin), 3 Warriors (Spore, Bonesword/Lash Whip, Toxin), 10 Termagants, and 20 Hormagaunts is a pretty decent plan, if a little scattered. The idea there would be outflanking two squads (Horms via Commander, 'Stealers naturally) and holding the Termagants in reserve to grab an easy objective. The Warrriors hopefully come down with the Zoanthropes and prevent people from charging them, which they are very vulnerable to; adding a Venom Cannon in is nice for wound allocation tricks and gives you a little bit more much-needed suppression fire.

Don't give up on Tyranids, whatever people say- they may be a bit tough to wrap your head around, but they're an incredibly strong army when played right. Always remember that you are, first and foremost, an ASSAULT army and that you want to get to grips with most foes. Make good use of that ability to move 6" every turn without penalty and always be ready to charge something and you'll find games working out a lot better for you.

Kirby said...

Ah sorry Termite,thought you wanted a 1500 drop list =p. Chumb's list is solid @ 1500 which combines a lot of what you have with some more pewpewiness. You can convert Hive Guard from a lot of things really (I've posted some pics here of Raveners which look great) if you're tight on cash.

As Puppy said though, don't give up on Tyranids. The FAQ nerfed their number of builds but they are still strong. Whilst SitW not working in transports is a bit >.<, hopefully everyone else will be updated (unlikely) to be on a level playing field but it still doesn't hamper the Tyranid's ability to be an effective force in 5th.

GMort. said...

As money is a bit in short supply currently (I'm still unemployed) my Hive Guard were made from Warriors and I think they look just fine.

I'm not sure if it's possible to attach pictures to a comment so a link will have to do.

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