BrotherLoring was being a mean person last night and disparaging on Koopa's new BA list (which you guys will see soon when he posts up his pile of boxes :)) which Chumbalya helped him put together. Put it like this, it's the only Hybrid BA list I like. So some e-peen thrown back and forth and we got talking about who does Immolator spam better, Sisters or Blood Angels? After all, BA can get more of the chasis overall thanks to ASM and their ASM make them pretty cheap. So let's check it out. Oh and let it be said nothing ever good comes from insulting people haha.
Immolator spam isbased around a lot of AV11 chassis with TL-heavy flamers roaring towards the opponent and dumping meltagun troops in their face whilst using blocking techniques like tri-rhinos and then proceeding to tank shock, flame and melta crap to death. The latest incarnations of Immolator spam add Imperial Guard platoons as firesupport with autocannons (and objective holding) to make it even more fearsome. BA in theory should be able to do this even better with actual fast vehicles and Baals w/flamestorms but will have less melta to throw around. Let's see what we can come up with.
We obviously want to build our list around ASM in Razorbacks w/TL-Heavy Flamers. Add in a meltagun and infernous pistol and each of these guys costs 145 points, 5 points less than a Celestian squad with much better defences and on par offensive ability. Flamestorm Baals are an important part of this army for BA as well as it adds AV13 to the mix and an AP3 template. The drawback is it doesn't carry any meltagun troopers. 6 ASM RBacks and 3 Flamestorm Baals sets us back 1215 points so we've got just under 800 points to spend on HQ, Elites and Heavy Support.
What options do we have then in these slots. Razorbacks are very expensive now as we aren't getting the ASM bonus. We obviously want a Libby for Shield and psychic defense which opens up the potential for Honor Guard. Otherwise we've got Sternguard, Dreadnoughts (fire support) and Devastators (fire support and Razorbacks). Honor Guard are cheaper than Sternguard but also come with 100point cost of the Librarian so if we take one, we'd only want one unless we planned on a double Libby list. Then we factor in meltagun costs and Sternguard are cheaper and capable of taking combi-meltas too, so we'll take Sternguard with a TL-Heavy Flamer Razorback and 2 meltaguns which sets us back 190 points each. A Riflemen dreadnought could provide some much needed firepower whilst not breaking the bank at 120 points whilst a ML squad + Razorback with 4 missiles will cost 185. With these point options we've got two potential configurations ahead of us. We can go Sternguard/Rifledreads and leave the ASM Troops as is, or go ML Devs/Sternguard and change two of the ASM to ISTs w/meltaguns. The Dreads are a better option than min-sized Dev squads so we'll go with them.
With 685 points to play with (-100 for Libby) we can probably fit in two of each. Two rifledreads and 2 Sternies w/Razorback will leave us with 65 points and we've got 8 TL-Heavy Flamer RBacks, 3 Flamestorm Baals and 2 Rifledreads. Not bad and we can add in 6 Hunter Kills to the RBacks as well for a bigger 1st turn punch. Is it as good as Immolator spam? Probably on par. Immolator spam has better anti-tank with more meltaguns (20 compared to 12 + 6 infernous) and can get better fire support with Imperial Guard blobs but BA has better staying power with MEQ statlines.
Let's hear your thoughts (and BroLo can name if it he wants :P) and here's the list:
HQ -
Libby w/Shield and Sword
Elites -
Sternguard x5 w/2x meltagun, Razorback w/TL-Heavy Flamer, Hunter Killer Missile
Sternguard x5 w/2x meltagun, Razorback w/TL-Heavy Flamer, Hunter Killer Missile
Troops -
ASM x5 w/meltagun, infernous pistol, Razorback w/TL-Heavy Flamer, Hunter Killer Missile
ASM x5 w/meltagun, infernous pistol, Razorback w/TL-Heavy Flamer, Hunter Killer Missile
ASM x5 w/meltagun, infernous pistol, Razorback w/TL-Heavy Flamer, Hunter Killer Missile
ASM x5 w/meltagun, infernous pistol, Razorback w/TL-Heavy Flamer, Hunter Killer Missile
ASM x5 w/meltagun, infernous pistol, Razorback w/TL-Heavy Flamer
ASM x5 w/meltagun, infernous pistol, Razorback w/TL-Heavy Flamer
Fast Attack -
Baal Predator w/Flamestorm cannon
Baal Predator w/Flamestorm cannon
Baal Predator w/Flamestorm cannon
Heavy Support -
Dreadnought w/2x TL-autocannons
Dreadnought w/2x TL-autocannons
Totals: 1995 points
Tanks: 13
Infantry: 41
So this list can push forward 12" turn one like Immolator spam and drop 6 HKs into you, scouting S6 AP3 templates on AV13 platforms and 2x Rifledreads. From then on you've got 11 vehicles running around your lines with a bunch of meltaguns and template weapons raining down on you. Not pretty and expensive to build as well.
9 pinkments:
I'll consider my name well and truly dropped!
I personally prefer the BA list. With truly fast vehicles, the added AV13 for extra protection and some wonder dreadies, I think these boys just edge it.
Hmmm.... I'd love to name it, but I'm sure there have been many of these created before mine.
I'd also like to see the other way around... T-L MM razors and dual flamer marines... that makes more sense. You only get out after the tank has gone Boom!
This is kinda good, but it needs more hunter-killers, and sternguard want dual barbeque'ing devices.
I'd trade out an assault marine squad for an extra dread without thinking twice.
I like.
We don't need sisters of battle anymore I guess, BA can be woman enough for the both of them.
Maybe I made that up.
Must've seen Meltabacks in Imperial Armour or something.
That's a lot of burny. It's very lacking in the long ranged dakka so baddies can focus on popping your metal bawkses early on. Of course, even having half your Razors operable is a lot of burny tank chassis with meltas included.
I like it lol
Perhaps Blood Furnace for the name?
Or maybe Blood-O-Lator.
Don't immo's have a firepoint, though?
Granted, there are a lot of other advantages going the other direction as well, but razorbacks with firepoints seems like a rather large baseline advantage.
Or maybe I just hate the idea that the Sisters don't even have Immo spam to call their own anymore. :P
@Vt2; ya another Dread would be nice and is certainly an option. Also frees up more points for HKMs or meltabombs.
@Wysten; SoB still do Immo spam very well. THey have more bodies which are weaker but also more special weapons and their IG blobs are arguably better than the Dreads and as Ckylown points out, Immos have a firepoint. In the BA's favor they are actually fast, can get HKMs, have better statlines and get AV13 w/S6 AP3 templates.
@Chumb; <3 ze burn. Screening with the Baals should get quite a few 3+ saves on the Razorbacks and if not at least a 4+ and add in the AV13 of the Baals + initial suppression from HKM salvo & Dreads = fun burn.
@Ckylown; yes they do but you generally move at 12" anyway which means you have to jump out to shoot. It's an advantage in the SoB direction for flexibility but not game breakingly so. Tri-rhino is much more important.
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