So my first crack at a DE list was posted, and it was ill-received (as it should of been). The comments really helped me to see the flaws within and question which units I wanted to use, as well as what they brought to the list. Having written about 10 more lists and trying things out in my head, I started observing and talking to local playtesters as I began to concoct what I believe to be one of the better lists I have written thus far (which is probably not anything special), so without further adieu here she be:
HQ: 135
Archon w/ Shadow Field, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Agoniser
Elite: 192
6 Incubi
Raider w/ Shock Prow
Troops: 660
10 Warriors w/ Splinter Cannon, Blaster
10 Warriors w/ Splinter Cannon, Blaster
9 Wyches w/ 2 Razor Flails
Hekatrix w/ Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Power Weapon
Raider w/ Shock Prow
9 Wyches w/ 2 Razor Flails
Hekatrix w/ Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Power Weapon
Raider w/ Shock Prow
Fast Attack: 198
6 Reavers w/ 2 Heat Lance
Arena Champion w/ Agoniser
Heavy Support: 315
Ravager w/ 3 Dark Lance
Ravager w/ 3 Dark Lance
Ravager w/ 3 Dark Lance
Alright, allow me to explain myself yet again:
Archon + 6 man Incubi squad in the Raider makes for a 7 man strong heavy infantry sweeper that I would trust to tangle with anything short of the Swarmlord + Guard. This is your unit that makes other dedicated CC units scared, drawing some fire as you can sit in cover all day and not worry due to the PGL on the Archon.
The troops selection gets you two decent CC troop options in the Wych squads who I feel will fare better with the Razor Flails over the ever internet-popular Shardnet + Impaler due to the Wyches lacking FNP. In other words, whatever you hit you want to kill quickly, or risk being smoked yourself. You can sit in cover and decide who gets to attack whom with the PGL upgrade. The Wyches can easily just come in reserve on foot to get at faster armies who will be knocking at your deployment zone early-game (such as Blood Angels) or can sit comfy in their Raiders tank shocking the bejesus out of people before assaulting the peons below. The Warriors are mostly objective campers who can put the hurt on any infantry from a far range or can potentially snipe a vehicle if the need ever arises. I tried to pack as much duality as the points allowed into this slot and others.
The Reavers serve as the disruption element in the list, it can fly over a squad to hopefully cut some members down on its way to snipe a tank, whilst if it blows up a transport with its lances it has the potential to actually win in a assault (albeit not vs anything born to tear new ones in CC). It has the numbers to not just poof whilst being shot at which I think is worth the points spent on the Arena Champion upgrade.
Finally we have something that I'm sure people here are accustomed to seeing: 3 Ravagers all with Dark Lances. Perhaps if I had some more Dark Lances in other slots I would have room for the x3 Disintegrator variant to help mow down heavy infantry (or FNP duders) but at the moment I can't find the room; you just plain need about 10-12 Dark Lances at this point total, maybe as low as 8 if you're running a heavy WWP Dependant variant.
Now on to some more general observations on the army/things to ponder about this list:
-Blast Pistols: Except on Archons, I'm far from sold. 6" range means you're only hitting something that is an immediate danger to you and yours anyway, and if you are a Wych squad you are probably much better off with Haywire Grenades for just a handful points more.
- Wych Weapons: I think smart players can play around the S+I combo, while if you do the math Razor Flails equate basically the same performance vs Gauntlets if you aren't charging, and are better if you are. Too early to decide here.
- Night Shields: I still don't like these. If you think about it, what weapons are you really, honestly afraid of as a DE player? Lascannons? Missile Launchers? Autocannons? Basically any weapon 36" plus right? Well, Night Shields do diddly against most of these. Night Shields were the bomb back before Imperial Guard and Space Wolves were rewritten, but I feel that besides on perhaps Ravagers their time has passed. Could be wrong though, they are very nice vs. Hive Guard for example.
-Unfortunately, the army is still very alpha strike dependent. If you go first you will get one, read one turn of full capacity shooting if you're opponent isn't a half-wit or you win the lotto and silence all his relevant guns in one turn, or has a good list. As people have been saying, if you can't get full cover on something and you're not going first, you should probably reserve it. Unfortunately since one Ravager has a little over 60% chance of doing anything to a Rhino you will see DE players quit in frustration in the coming months (especially when Grey Marines-oops I mean Grey Knights come out next year). Even at 1500 you will still see plenty of Razorbacks, Dreadnoughts, and Chimeras so prepare to learn the real meaning of being a "finesse" army the hard way (IE, playing your ass off and still needing to get lucky if playing vs. someone good).
This brings me to...
- Why 1500 pt armies?: I think most would agree that it is much harder to find a truly balanced 1500 pt list than it is to create a 2K one. I believe this mental exercise will better prepare myself and hopefully others to examine what kind of lists they are writing and what kind of elements fit into those lists.
Hopefully by the end of this novel you have disagreed with me in some key areas. You should talk about those in the comments section so we can be cool internet buddies and attempt to learn from each other.
Logging you in...
abusepuppy 121p · 750 weeks ago
-A Blast Pistol on the Archon would give you at least a chance of downing transports with the squad. I am also a fan of the Djin Blade, which is an additional item (not a replacement), allowing you to take a Blaster and still maintain your full attacks. Agonizer is certainly a good weapon, though, I'm just not necessarily sold on it for the Archon.
-Witches aren't actually super-killy in melee against MEQs, so I think going for the alpha-strike squad can be a problem. Shard/Impaler helps shut down sarges and high-attack units more effectively than some rerolls, in my opinion. Your girls should be able to beat most normal squads (Tacticals, etc), but ASM and such will give them problems; one or two extra wounds from Flails or Hydra won't change that, but a Shardnet can easily subtract three or four attacks from a group of models, which adds up very quickly.
-I don't think Reavers are good enough in CC to warrant the upgrades; if you're charging something with them, you're doing it to tie them up, not to win. T4/5+ simply isn't enough to win fights except against the worst troops, and an Agonizer doesn't really work against them. You end up paying far, far too many points for a very limited boost in effectiveness.
-It's true that many of the 48" weapons are what kill DE vehicles, but the idea is that those units are generally deployed behind other units and you get 35" away from what you want to shoot, and simple physical limitations prevent most of his army from being in range of you- in effect, you're using the Shields to divide and conquer his forces.
-You should still be running either Flickerfield, Night Shields, or both on your Ravagers. They're going to be a target, and your AT drops almost to nothing without them.
Karnstein · 750 weeks ago
If you buy the djinblade and the blaster, you pay ~150 points. For that price you could buy the baron, who can be attached to the incubis during a battle if there really is some need for the nade launcher, gives you +1 on the roll off and also comes with a shadowfield. With the remaining points you could either buy two more Incubi, or upgrade the squad with a onslaught klaivex. Baron also unlocks hellions as troops, who are not a bad choice either.
Right now I'm leaning either towards the risky huskblade archon, or no archon at all.
- I agree on the wyches. S+I works regardless of the drug chart result and since vanilla wyches are no damage dealers, you are far better off reducing the damage you get, instead of trying to create ~1 extra wound. And never ever buy a power weapon for wyches. A wych-squad with 2 S+I and a agonizer will munch nearly every MC in the game on the long run. A S3 PW will fail you against T5+. I'm also not really sold on the nade launcher. Yes you get defensive grenades, but how many guys in the game will charge wyches instead of just shooting them up? Those who do, will munch you regardless of their amount of attacks.
- Agree on the reavers too. No champ at all; would rather spend those points on talons/caltrops or other units.
Marshal_Wilhelm 61p · 750 weeks ago
I don't like it, and I thought to flesh out why:
It is a 1/6 chance for two dice to roll a double, which takes away any hits you had made [and you would have, being ws>9000 and then hits the wielder with them.
It almost pushes into wacky Ork randomness.....
I think the Agoniser is a better weapon. Still a power weapon but wounding on 4s, which is gold for those skinny Elf arms.
Mathhammer time, versus MEq
4 attacks + 2 Djinn + 1 for 2nd weapon
7 attacks. 4.7 hit. 1.55 dead.
Agoniser [with Blaster]
4 attacks. 2.7 hit. 1.35 dead.
That is ignoring the treachery potential. 0.2 doesn't seem worth it to me.
The more attacks gained by charging or having a second weapon [by taking the Blast pistol], improves the Agoniser's showing.
4 a, 2 Djinn, 2 for 2nd weapon and assault
8 a, 5.3 hit. 1.8 dead.
4 a, 2 for 2nd weapon and assault
6 a, 4 hit. 2 dead
I had forgotten that the Agoniser is a swap and the Djinn is not. So you either go for the Blast pistol to get the 2nd weapon attack or go the Blaster and get no attack bonus. I think the Blaster is the best option, tbh.
So, lets drop an attack off when charging.
5 attacks. 3.3 hits. 1.67 dead.
Slightly worse than the Djinn blade, yes. Imo, negligible and with no risk. You are risking a 1/6 chance to lose your bonus AND wound or kill yourself, and all for 0.13 more Mech on the charge?
Seems not worth it imo. Not only do you lose the attacks on a double, but they also come against you. That is a 2 play swing, to use sporting terms. Why risk the shadow field ON YOUR OWN ATTACKS?
Hopefully I have made some sense :)
VT2 79p · 750 weeks ago
It's also very, very cheap. Once you gain furious charge, djinn is as effective against marines as the agonizer, but you'll have 2 more attacks total.
Sure, it's fairly risky, but well worth it. Since it's 'just' two attacks against yourself if your lord/lady screws up, and you have 3 wounds, you're not gonna poof then and there. Besides, hey - clonefield or shadowfield. All isn't lost if you roll a double =P
Apathyman 36p · 750 weeks ago
Other than that, why no blaster on the archon? It's free! Shoulder-mount it or something.
That one in six chance isn't worse than failing a psychic test... just think of it as a worse miscast table
Marshal_Wilhelm 61p · 750 weeks ago
Do you need help against t3 things? I mean, no need to chuck it out if you can get it, but in an all-comers list, wouldn't t4 be the safest bet?
VT2 79p · 750 weeks ago
If you throw in a soultrap, you'll become strength 6 after your first important kill, then strength 10. Agonizer is a very safe, very comfy thing, but there are much better - and more fun - options for archons.
Like what happened to space marines, who went from power weapon to a whole bunch of toys.
VT2 79p · 750 weeks ago
It should always be taken.
Darkpadowan · 750 weeks ago
My friend is playing IG so I'm contemplating everything :D
Karnstein · 750 weeks ago
somewhatdamaged · 750 weeks ago
Darkwanderer · 750 weeks ago
A good ideia,or at least with my playtesting seem as such, is that target saturation is your friend, with units that have multi-tasking potential.
Joe G · 750 weeks ago
-I think grenade launchers get expensive really quickly. They make sense on a unit like incubi, dunno about any others.
-The reason to take the archon is for grenade launchers for the incubi. Can a succubus take the PGL? She may make more sense for the incubi if so.
-I think you either need more raiders/venoms, or spend points on raider defense. It is not hard to drop 3 raiders, then focus on the 3 ravagers.
-I think you'll find that wyches just don't do much damage. With razorflails or hydras. I prefer the defensive tarpit setup mentioned, after trying them as an offensive unit multiple times. Wracks seem to be a better offensive threat.
-Reavers have proven to be horrifically bad in combat. Amazingly so. Don't think the champ is worth it.
Malkov · 750 weeks ago
Marshal_Wilhelm 61p · 750 weeks ago
I would like a Deldar tricks and sneaks combo article. These things might not make it into tourney play, or maybe they will, but they are for making the best of the sly Deldar stuff, regardless of it being great or not..
For example:
Archangel of Pain [AoP] is excellent when fighting wsEqual stuff. However, I think its real magic is the initiative affect. Wracks get to strike before Marines.
I've long thought the initiative buff of Furious Charge was even more important than the strength component.
You then suggest to us how to 'make it happen'
Crucible of Malediction:
Used by a Retrofire jets'ing Raider to pop those witches that Wolves are so keen on.
Dark Gate:
Used on TWC, but useful on Terms, Nobz, Nid Warriors, etc. Hopefully you can get them to GtG and avoid fighting them next turn :)
Orb of Despair:
As above ~ watch out for that 6" range and 2d6 scatter though o_O
Shattershard:
As above
That kind of thing.
Cherry on top :D
Kirby 118p · 750 weeks ago
Joe · 750 weeks ago