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Wednesday, December 15, 2010

So you're going to play in a comp tournament.....



Yes, we all do it. Especially here in Oz. There is a prevalence of comp-style tourneys, be it peer, TO, panel, and the like. I know, we here at Pinksville 3++ (patent pending) don't advocate comp in any format, but unfortunately for everyone who isn't VT2, we like playing tourneys.Today I'm going to take you on a little journey that I call bullshitville, better known as how to play comp rather than letting it play you.


Panel Comp - The only passable kind. Still skewed, and only really viable if those on the panel are from a selection of the hobby environment, from hardcore tourney players, to fluff bunny windowlickers. This style of comp relies on your list being submitted to a group of people (5+, the more the better) who aren't actually playing in the tournament. They then rate your list by the same arbitrary crapfest indicators, judging its power, fluffiness, and all round dietary intake advice before putting their scores into the system. The system then averages out your score over the total, and gives you your comp for the tourney.

 Pro's - When done with a good selection of judges, it can be a fair indicator of list "hardness". If the tournament is seeded by comp (see CowCon in Rockhampton, QLD) this can lead to fairer initial match ups, which don't affect the overall outcome of the tourney.

Con's - When done with a poor selection of judges, its terrible. I haven't been on the receiving end of this, but it does happen. Also, because the judges are usually from different areas of the country, the panel members have different ideas of the 'meta', and what is/isn't a strong list. This leads to more variation in individual scores, which skews the process. Said judges may or may not be forum whores, and may or may not believe that Warseer and Dakka army list judging is spot on.

What you can do about it - The same thing you can do with every type of comp - go hard or go home. That being said, you can do little things to your list without destroying its viability. We will call this "white lies" from now on, and I'll explain it at the end of the article.

Peer Comp - As it sounds. Each player gives you a score based on how hard he/she thinks your army is, whether or not they would take it, whether it has a theme, etc etc. Should always be done before the game, to prevent chipmunking, and should have a fairly easy to follow set of check boxes that are fair to every army.

Pro's - Allows your opponents to judge your list based on what they like/dislike. I know, doesn't sound like much, but I've gotta give it something.

Con's - Just about everything. Depending on where your tourney is held, Space Wolves may be the new awesomesauce. Travel 500kms north, and Imp Guard are kings of the hill. Your comp score will vary based on perceptions at a local club level, which is bad if your from out of town, and don't know what people think is a "hard" list. Same goes for experience. One local DE player scored horribly on comp for our local tourney, yet with a harder list, scored almost double at a tourney in a major city. Difference? People in the second tourney actually knew what a raider was. To be honest, they actually knew what DARK ELDAR was, and this was before the new codex.

What you can do about it -  9/10ths of **** all. Basically, most people have preconceived notions in their head about what constitutes a "POWAFUL!" list. If you play that army, prepare to be dunked. If you play most 5th ed  codices armies in an efficient manner, guess what, your too strong. Unfortunately, subconsciously, people will often mark you down just because they don't like playing your Flamerback Spam with their horde ork army. Bad match ups can mean bad comp scores, for no other reason that they don't feel its fair to play you.

Tourney Organiser Scored Comp - phew, what a mouthful. This is the pinnacle of comp creation - he who runs the tourney, makes the rules. Gives birth to all manner of ideas, usually based on the TO's personal experience. Also, as a store owner (and this is a generalisation) you fall into a category of gamer that isn't usually that keen on competitive gaming. I'm sure there are FLGS owners that pride themselves on their WAAC game style, but I haven't met any.

Pro's - There are none. No, seriously, unless you happen to have a clued on TO, who can judge fairly, has a good 40k general knowledge, has good tourney experience as a player, and knows enough about different competitive sites that exist on the net.

Con's - Everything not mentioned above. I had an incident this year, with a TO, who literally scored a leafblower army a 9 for comp. Out of 10. My hybrid Tau scored a manly 5. The difference? The 2 page novella he attaches to his army list for tournaments. He did, in his defense, beat me in our first game against each other, by a massive 15VP's, and he is quite a good, and competitive player. I had even argued with this particular TO (the night before, amongst many rum drinks) that really, I should get a 3 - 4 for comp. Nice guy, not much real world 40k experience. Was I pissy that I had lost the tourney over a short story? Not really, I won on battle points. Another friend of ours however missed out on a place entirely, because he ran razorwolves

What can you do about it - Read the player pack prior to the list submission date, for starters. Suss out players from the local area, if you can, using the net etc, and see what people play in that area. Do your homework. Some TO's just want fluffy bunny cuddles, no matter how hard your list is. For instance, the Imp Guard player from above had his 1750 pt version of the list refused at QLD Masters this year, because it was too hard. Yet it scored 9/10 for comp. See where I'm going with this?

What to do..........?

So you've entered a comp tourney. Great! 5 games in a weekend in a competitive (hobby) environment is fun. I don't know about you guys, but I drink a lot of beer, talk to a lot of gamers, and generally have a good time. That's the social side. Now, what the hell can you do about these silly comp restrictions?

Lesson 1: White lies
              Write your list as per usual. Now look at your units, and think "What can I do to replace that with a crappier option from the same codex?" This one isn't easy to do. The best example I can think of is using something like Blood Claws in place of Grey Hunters. Change them over to a Flamer, and put a Wolf Guard in the unit with a combi flamer, or run meltagun/combi melta. Do that to 2 of your Razorwolves squads, and watch your comp points ding up. Comp hates spammed FOC choices. Do your best to vary your choices, and still get the job done. Take 3 Las/Plas Razors, and 3 Assault Cannon Razors. Is it as good as taking 6 Las Plas? No, but in a compy tournament, its likely that you will still have the required tools to get the job done.

Lesson 2: Parchment of Untruth
             Take said list from above, and put it into some program you are comfortable formatting with. Now find an awesome picture of the Lol-fex, and underlay it behind your MC heavy 'Nid list. No, seriously, find some images of stuff that is in your army, and add it to your list. Name your units. Even if its just Sergeant Billy Bob of the Space Wolves, and Billy Bob's Tact Squad, and Billy Bob's Rape Dungeon Rhino, that shit makes people think you care about your little plastic men. Little touches like these allow you to portray an image of fluffiness, even though you are running Vulkan and 10 x TH/SS Termies in Flameraiders of Doom.

Lesson 3: WYSIWYG
             This one is mostly for the peer comp environs, where people can see your army and your minis before they judge you. Don't turn around and play your Thousand Son's CSM army as Codex: Blood Angels, and expect to make friends. I know, its crap that people haven't accepted that marines can be LOTS of different things, depending on your mood, and thats why they are fun. If you are gonna run Chaos as C:BA, make sure your marines are red. Make sure your razorbacks have chaos symbols on them. Make time to research your fluff, before the game. When your opponent asks for your list, make the effort to sneak in that your playing your Iron Hands as Codex: Space Wolves, because in the Horus Heresy Books, Ferrus Manus is hell angry all the time, and his army is described as just like Russ's wolves, blah blah blah. Stuff like that can let people see your razorspam list through rose tinted glasses, and that can mean the difference between 1st and 4th.

Lesson 4: FOR SPARTAAAAAAAAAAAA!
            Ignore everything I've said above. Take the hardest list you can, on plain white paper, with no names units, and play your damnedest. Be content with best general award, knowing that you won the race, the others just got the retard points. 

I don't advocate comp, but we all live in a world where it is the status quo. If you vote with your wallet, as so many hard line no-comp proponents implore you to do, you will miss out on games, and that's a fairly horrid way to waste lots of time and money on a hobby. Keep advocating no comp, and help others to see how much better it would be, by playing within their rules, and still towelling them. Explain to TO's why you didn't like their comp system, and how you got around it. The sooner people understand that comp is not for the best, and either encourages people to make white-lie lists, or other workarounds, the better off we will be.

Otherwise we could all end up playing ETC style rules, and mass suicide will be the new GW product.

Comments (29)

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FOR SPARTAAAA!!
2 replies · active 751 weeks ago
And, for a fluffier equivalent, check this out:
Auretious Taak's avatar

Auretious Taak · 751 weeks ago

Oooh very nice article Dan. I might expand on a few points in a follow on article. :) I like your break down of Panel/Peer/TO Comp. Pretty solid and smack bang on the money. :)
I hate telling Dans they did a good job... but I will make an exception.

Good show ol' chap!

Echo Taak's sentiments 100%
Dan...reasonable...wow.... good article.

The best way to show people comp is bad is to have a poorly comped army that they run at a tournament. Ask Vince. He would throw up all the usual arguments for comp against me and we play in one tournament where he gets comped like crap and now he's in the true 3++ camp :P.
Dan - biggest compliment on 3++ I think I can pay is that I thought this was by Kirby.

Great article.

For me, the best approach is to break the system, but do it while explaining why.
3 replies · active 751 weeks ago
That can be taken as so insulting on so many levels!
Pshaw. If you like.
And complimentary...
but more insulting!
Nice article and an enjoyable read. No I don't want to ditch comp but your points make me want to work harder to make it work better. :D
If I want to play, I'm gonna need an entirely new army - one that's perceived to be weak, 'for experts only,' and preferably all on foot.
So sanguard with terminators.

I really don't see how comp is fair to anyone involved, except the organizers.
5 replies · active 751 weeks ago
Why do you need a new army? If comp has been done WELL, then it's simply a matter of taking what you like and playing it well.

Admittedly comp isn't being done the best currently for a lot of event. It is a lot better than it used to be, but it can still be done better.
Because all of the following are punished here in Sweden: mech, vanilla marines, tyranid elites and multi-wound things.
That's kinda what I own.

Yeah, I could run foot marines, but the thing here is, if I'm not playing what I want, and enjoy to run with, I might as well go do something else.
Given any thought to a couple of trips across the border? No comp in Norway. :)
Norway is all-round better.
I have, but I'm very poor.
You forgot another golden rule of comp:

If your army is completely converted, and well painted, people will rate you FAR higher on comp then otherwise-
I recently made a deldar Wrack Raider/Beastmaster army looks horrendously similar to Stelek's (I made the list up before I read the article, but it is eerily similar) but since EVERYTHING is converted and most of the things painted them to a high tabletop standard, and dynamically based, I've scored 8-9/10 on comp when far weaker armies scored less.

Also, don't bring Nob bikers- both because they are crappy, and people think they are good, so you'll lose both in the game and in comp. :P
Kill - thats fine, in peer comp, doesnt work in panel or TO comp though. I did mention that your army should at least vaguely resemble what your playing it as, but I do agree that having a sweeet looking army can go some way to mitigating comp scores in a peer environment.
@VT2: i suggest you get out of your basement for a while and play a few tournaments. I think you'll see that what you percieve as punishment, is something else entirely. Unless your gripe with comp is that you think you need to max your comp-score. Another idea would be to talk to advocators of comp HERE, and discuss your gripes.
Why? Well, from what i gather, comp works pretty differently in the land "down under", and they will mostly answer you from THEIR experiences, which i bet will be different from yours.

Just my 2 cents.
/L3go
4 replies · active 750 weeks ago
My house doesn't even have a basement, and I get games in three days a week.
Comped tourneys make me cry.
since i have time to kill, i'll give you one chance to prove that you have a valid point, and that you're not just one of those who prefer to whine anonomously over the internet.

you got my attention now VT2. convince me that comp is bad, and why it makes you cry (come one... rise to the occasion buddy... you know you want to... :) )
is it:
1. you think you need to max your comp-score? if so, i can put that notion to rest. the armies that win tournaments here are mostly in the lower half of the comp-spectrum.

2. you believe that comp prevents you from playing with the toy-soldiers you want to field? again i respond with a "relax, dude". most (again, MOST, not all) tourneys give you a pretty wide berth when it comes to what's "allowed", and comp-scores aren't all that "win-or-lose-a-tourney" that it's made out to be. bring what you want to play with, and you'll see this for yourself (again, a reference to 1).

or is there another reason why you resent comp so much? to reiterate, you have my full attention. tell me the reason, and i promise i'll read it without prejudice.
I don't need to prove anything, to anyone, tough guy.

In summary: I bought a lot of armor. I hate infantry. When I use infantry, I want it to be heroic. Characters, terminators, lesser characters, veteran squads...

So when I play, I have a mix of terminators, dreads, predators, characters, various veterans, transports, and land raiders, with few tactical marines or scouts. That's what I like to play, and what I have bought.
If I take this to a tournament, and roll it, I will not win, because - while I won the games - I didn't bring a 'soft' army, painted by a true master of non-metallic metal, with added avanced highlights, and thus I get, say, 20 points, out of a total max 40.

That's why comp is shit, and why I don't go to comp tourneys.
When I play the game, I want to play the game - not play popularity contests where actual playing is either punished, or largely ignored, because your army wasn't highlighted to a high enough degree, and you didn't hand out enough handjobs to boost your 'sportsman score.'
"tough guy"? i was just trying to sound "tough" in any way. I was trying to set a friendly tone, but if you wanna make this a "I-can-be-anonymous-over-the-internet-so-suddenly-i-wanna-have-a-dick-waving"-contest, then fine.

I called you out, as the one thing i've read from you are versions of "comp sucks", but never any reasoning behind that statement.
so, no, you don't have to "prove" anything to me, but if stating that "comp sucks" is meant to achieve more than to make you come off as another anonymous internet-whiner, i'd say an elaboration of said statement is helpful.

as for your example, i'd say you don't really sound as one keeping up with developments in the swedish 40k-scene.. ppl who win tourneys nowadays field pretty hard armies, containing just about the same as the choices you seem to prefer.
Lurking Horror's avatar

Lurking Horror · 751 weeks ago

Hey Dan, while the Razorwolves list got flogged by the TO on Comp, it was more "Margin of Victory" per game that stopped him from scoring a podium finish. He won all five of his games, but still didn't top the tourney for Battle Points... I figured there's something weird going on when that happens. Looking forward to Centurion for undefeated players actually winning the event.
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
margin of victory and battle points are whole other issues with tournaments. <3 W/L
carldooley's avatar

carldooley · 750 weeks ago

Sorry, firsttime poster, longtime readerlurker
at my local tournaments, we use a pre-published comp listing, meaning that we can tailor our lists 'hardness' before walking in the door. it is as follows:

Warhammer 40K tournament rules
Rounds will each have a predetermined scenario
* Round 1: Standard deployment(pitched battle?) w/ Armageddon(anniliation?) P.91P.92
* Round 2: Spearhead with objective capturing P.91P.93
* Round 3: Dawn of war with capture the flag(1 objective?) P.91P.93

Composition: each part worth &frac12; a point
* No special character: &frac12; point (No uniques
o named characters)
* Not using full character allotment: &frac12; point (using only one HQ)
* No duplicate elite choices: &frac12; point
* No duplicate heavy choices: &frac12; point
* No duplicate fast choices: &frac12; point
* Using more than the minimum number of troop choices: &frac12; point

do we have problems with it? yes - but then again, we know what is going to happen in each of the rounds, and we know how comp is computed. There ARE problems doing it this way - Special Character unlocks are penalized, as is going the other way - if you take one special character, you have already been docked the half point so why not take as many special characters as you want as there are no more penalties.
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
Having the comp given out before hand is better in terms of giving everyone a level playing field and the score becomes less subjective. It adds another skill dimension to list building (who can make the best list within the comp constraints) but at least you're not going with a half-arsed list and get hammered by comp because it's a black box.
im very sorry that im going to sound like a noob. but what is "comp"

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