So Kirby gave us a lengthy post earlier regarding the new options that have opened up following the new FAQs. As I'm a little more familiar with the codex (sorry Kirby it's true), I'll first take a look at how the FAQ has changed things for us BT players, and also what hasn't changed.Righteous Zeal - As Kirby mentioned in his earlier post, one problem with foot lists is the risk of your Ld8 crusader squads not wishing to stick it out and turning and running. For shooty squads on your board edge, this is a problem. The new FAQ reads,
Page 23 –Righteous Zeal
Change “that is not pinned or falling back” to “that has not gone to ground or is not falling back” in the first sentence of the second paragraph.
These changes make squads that go-to-ground a good deal more survivable. Now a squad that loses just one member has the option of GtG and not taking a Righteous Zeal test. Although they won't be able to shoot next turn, your guys aren't running off the back edge of the table... which is always nice.
Storm shields - 10 -> 15 points, 4++ in combat -> 3++. Does this need more explanation? It's fracking awesome. 15 pt 3++ for your uber characters. Deal!
CML - Heavy 1 -> Heavy 2 with no increase in cost. Thankyouplease.
Holy Orb of Antioch - Now confirmed to be a blast weapon. This will disappoint many. An AP3, 12"range, blast weapon that can only be taken by models in power armour... I'll give it a miss thanks.
Narthecium - I liked the old rules. I liked the new rules. I never use a PA command squad, so...
Signum - One re-roll to hit -> BS5 - not a huge amount of change here.
PotMS - Half an update here. Split targets is now possible, but sadly still shooting at BS2. Still some improvement for out LRs.
EDIT: As has been pointed out in the comments and a nice email from a reader, I got this one wrong when skimming through. PotMS is now BS4 and I'm officially a derp. Nice one GW
Smoke Launchers - 4th Ed -> 5th Ed. Auto-glance to 4++. Not so good for assault lists, but perhaps not so much of a loss for shooty ones. We still have to bloody pay for them though!
Transport Vehicles - No longer owned by the squads that purchased them. Nice update.
Assault squads - SS 3pt -> 15pts. This does make them expensive at 37 points/model base, but they can still be a very reactive anvil unit that may have a place in thunderbubble-esque lists. Melta bombs are still only 2pts/model.
Typhoon Launcher - Heavy 1 S5, blast, twin-linked to Heavy 2 ML. Some more thankyouplease here. 70 points for a typhoon has already been abused by Kirby and many other lists on the interwebz.
Land Raider Crusader - No more need for a translated German FAQ and now a fully-fledged assault vehicle. Did anybody ever play it otherwise?
Here are some of the things that still make BT unique...
Drop pod assault - Still no 1/2 on first turn shenanigans. Although there is no reserve manipulation in the codex, this gives the army overall a bit more longevity as we've seen many times before.
Terminators - Shooty ones still get 2 heavy options and both types still get USR options. Thank you!
Crusader squads - 5 man squads with one heavy and one special option. The basic marines are a tiny bit expensive when factoring this lack of 'gear', but two weapon options is really nice.
Transport costs - Expensive transports are still an issue, but if I'm being honest, dropping the cost of them would may have been one positive too far.
Rites of Battle - Still accessible with commander choices.
I was chatting with the boss on MSN earlier and after he demonstrated his n00biness with the BT codex, he asked me to look into writing a foot list with this polished codex.
Note: All of the next bit is a big play about. I'm not totally happy with the final result, but it will continue to be a WiP for me, here on 3++. I've already ordered the shooty termies, so maybe you'll even see some play test pics. I'd appreciate ideas and comments, but here is my thought process.
Foot BT have always been a realistic, semi-competitive option, mainly due to our shooty terminators. Several of the new rule/wargear changes have just made it a little better. After having a real toy around with some lists over the last 48 hours, I genuinely think it can at least challenge some of the other viable 5th Ed foot lists such as Loganwing and BA dev hybrids.
What are the problems we need to overcome in foot lists?
Mobility - Relentless terminators and righteous zeal (adding d6 moving to every squad losing a model), this isn't as much of an issue as with many foot lists. Assault squads with SS provide a semi-good anvil should we feel it necessary. Bikes are still an option to supplement melta weaponry if required.
Support - New CMLs are full of win. Typhoons are an option but then we're not totally 'foot'. Shooty squads are good support and can now stick around a bit longer.
Survivability - Lots of terminators, access to 3++ and cheap neophytes for added bodies. We're all good.
Next I want to have a play about with some options. A basic shooty terminator squads with 2 CMLs and Tank Hunters comes in at 265 points. Throw in 1 or 2 chainfists for wound allocation and amour pen takes us upto 275 points. What other options do we have? Command squads? We need to take either a marshal or a castellan to access these and add in termie armour if we want the termie command squads. What would that offer us you ask? Well now your crusader squads become Ld9/10, you can add in 2 SSs for the squad (one for marshal and one for termie serg) and you can get 2 extra squads should you want them. So let's look at that option.
Marshal + Termie armour + SS + PW (15 pts instead of a 25 pt LC unfortunately) = 135
This isn't a huge investment, but does hurt a bit. A Castellan is 15 points cheaper, but we lose 1 wound and we drop one army-wide Ld to 9. Both are 5 Ini5 PW attacks on the charge with PE, so do add some combat ability. With these guys we open up the termie command squad.
4 terminators + 2 CMLs + SS + Tank Hunters + 2 Chainfists = 250
As this is basically 25 points cheaper than the regular squads, we can basically deduct that from the cost of the Marshal as we have the same output of fire. For the 110 points, we have army-wide Ld 10, 2 extra wounds, 2 storm shields, high initiative power weapon attacks (as oppose to all PFs) and 5 individually equipped marines for more wound-allocation shenanigans. That's a good deal if you ask me. Do we need 2 of them? Probably not, so one will be a castellan + CS to save a further 15 points.
Marshal - TA, PW, SS - 135
Command Squad - 2 x CML, SS, 2 x CF, Tank Hunters - 250
Castellan - TA, PW, SS - 120
Command Squad - 2 x CML, SS, 2 x CF, Tank Hunters - 250
EC - Accept any Challenge - 140
That's 895 so far. We'll add in an regular termie squad with 2 x CMLs for a further 275 taking us to 1170. We still need a bit of melta love and troops. For 1750 lists, that needs to fit in to 580 points (gulp!) and 830 for 2k lists.
Troops wise, we can have some backfield support - Las Plas squads come in at 101pts base. We don't expect to see a lot of action from them, so they'll stay bare. 4 of those for the 2k list takes us to 1575, but we only have 20 scoring bodies. Let's add in a couple of neophytes for each of the squads for a further 80 points. With mix/matching weapons we have a lot of different wargear load-outs. We're now at 1655. For melta, our best option IMO is bikes.
Basic triple melta bikes are 126. Two of those are 252, 3 are 378. Dual melta bikes + MM attack bike comes in at 181... 2 are 362 so we need to drop 17 points - 2 neophytes bite the dust.
So we have...
Marshal - TA, PW, SS - 135
Command Squad - 2 x CML, SS, 2 x CF, Tank Hunters - 250
Castellan - TA, PW, SS - 120
Command Squad - 2 x CML, SS, 2 x CF, Tank Hunters - 250
EC - Accept any Challenge - 140
Terminators - 2 x CML, 2 x CF, Tank Hunters - 275
Crusader Squad - Plasma gun, Lascannon, 2 neophytes - 121
Crusader Squad - Plasma gun, Lascannon, 2 neophytes - 121
Crusader Squad - Plasma gun, Lascannon, 1 neophyte - 111
Crusader Squad - Plasma gun, Lascannon, 1 neophyte - 111
Bike Squad - Melta x 2, MM AB - 181
Bike Squad - Melta x 2, MM AB - 181
1996
I think it would compete with Kirby's 2k hybrid list, but I'm not totally happy to be honest. It's still a little light on troops and if I'm being honest, I'd like to add an extra Terminator squad. If we do that we'll have to lose one of the command squads, and probably the bikes. This would free up some points after buying 2 regular terminator squads to mix up the crusader squads - 100 point melta/MM squads may be an option to sneak up behind the terminators and hold and shoot. This however will take a bit of playtesting.
For 1750 however, we need some more thought.
Marshal - TA, PW, SS - 135
Command Squad - 2 x CML, SS, 2 x CF, Tank Hunters - 250
EC - Accept any Challenge - 140
Terminators - 2 x CML, 2 x CF, Tank Hunters - 275
Terminators - 2 x CML, 2 x CF, Tank Hunters - 275
Crusader Squad - Plasma gun, Lascannon, Neophyte - 111
Crusader Squad - Plasma gun, Lascannon, Neophyte - 111
Crusader Squad - Plasma gun, Lascannon - 101
Crusader Squad - Plasma gun, Lascannon - 101
Bike Squad - Melta x 2, Plasma gun - 122
Bike Squad - Melta x 2, Plasma gun - 122
1743
We lose a few scoring bodies, but maintain a similar output, which is probably a poor reflection of the 2k list to be honest. We lose something from dropping the command squad choice (I like ini4 PWs and SSs), but i think we need a good deal of tweaking.
My personal favourite by far though...
EC - AAC - 140
3 x 10 Assault terminators - 5 x TH/SS, 5 x PoLC, Furious Charge - 1290
Crusader Squad (6) - Meltagun, PF, neophyte x 5, Frag grenades - 182
Crusader Squad (6) - Meltagun, PF, neophyte x 6, Frag grenades - 193
Crusader Squad (6) - Meltagun, PF, neophyte x 6, Frag grenades - 193
1998
Can you take down 30 of the nastiest combat beasts in the world of 40K?
I'm going to stick at these and continue to develop these with time. I'll also try my hand with some hybrid lists so stay tuned.
Smoke Launchers - 4th Ed -> 5th Ed. Auto-glance to 4++. Not so good for assault lists, but perhaps not so much of a loss for shooty ones. We still have to bloody pay for them though!
Transport Vehicles - No longer owned by the squads that purchased them. Nice update.
Assault squads - SS 3pt -> 15pts. This does make them expensive at 37 points/model base, but they can still be a very reactive anvil unit that may have a place in thunderbubble-esque lists. Melta bombs are still only 2pts/model.
Typhoon Launcher - Heavy 1 S5, blast, twin-linked to Heavy 2 ML. Some more thankyouplease here. 70 points for a typhoon has already been abused by Kirby and many other lists on the interwebz.
Land Raider Crusader - No more need for a translated German FAQ and now a fully-fledged assault vehicle. Did anybody ever play it otherwise?
Here are some of the things that still make BT unique...
Drop pod assault - Still no 1/2 on first turn shenanigans. Although there is no reserve manipulation in the codex, this gives the army overall a bit more longevity as we've seen many times before.
Terminators - Shooty ones still get 2 heavy options and both types still get USR options. Thank you!
Crusader squads - 5 man squads with one heavy and one special option. The basic marines are a tiny bit expensive when factoring this lack of 'gear', but two weapon options is really nice.
Transport costs - Expensive transports are still an issue, but if I'm being honest, dropping the cost of them would may have been one positive too far.
Rites of Battle - Still accessible with commander choices.
I was chatting with the boss on MSN earlier and after he demonstrated his n00biness with the BT codex, he asked me to look into writing a foot list with this polished codex.
Note: All of the next bit is a big play about. I'm not totally happy with the final result, but it will continue to be a WiP for me, here on 3++. I've already ordered the shooty termies, so maybe you'll even see some play test pics. I'd appreciate ideas and comments, but here is my thought process.
Foot BT have always been a realistic, semi-competitive option, mainly due to our shooty terminators. Several of the new rule/wargear changes have just made it a little better. After having a real toy around with some lists over the last 48 hours, I genuinely think it can at least challenge some of the other viable 5th Ed foot lists such as Loganwing and BA dev hybrids.
What are the problems we need to overcome in foot lists?
Mobility - Relentless terminators and righteous zeal (adding d6 moving to every squad losing a model), this isn't as much of an issue as with many foot lists. Assault squads with SS provide a semi-good anvil should we feel it necessary. Bikes are still an option to supplement melta weaponry if required.
Support - New CMLs are full of win. Typhoons are an option but then we're not totally 'foot'. Shooty squads are good support and can now stick around a bit longer.
Survivability - Lots of terminators, access to 3++ and cheap neophytes for added bodies. We're all good.
Next I want to have a play about with some options. A basic shooty terminator squads with 2 CMLs and Tank Hunters comes in at 265 points. Throw in 1 or 2 chainfists for wound allocation and amour pen takes us upto 275 points. What other options do we have? Command squads? We need to take either a marshal or a castellan to access these and add in termie armour if we want the termie command squads. What would that offer us you ask? Well now your crusader squads become Ld9/10, you can add in 2 SSs for the squad (one for marshal and one for termie serg) and you can get 2 extra squads should you want them. So let's look at that option.
Marshal + Termie armour + SS + PW (15 pts instead of a 25 pt LC unfortunately) = 135
This isn't a huge investment, but does hurt a bit. A Castellan is 15 points cheaper, but we lose 1 wound and we drop one army-wide Ld to 9. Both are 5 Ini5 PW attacks on the charge with PE, so do add some combat ability. With these guys we open up the termie command squad.
4 terminators + 2 CMLs + SS + Tank Hunters + 2 Chainfists = 250
As this is basically 25 points cheaper than the regular squads, we can basically deduct that from the cost of the Marshal as we have the same output of fire. For the 110 points, we have army-wide Ld 10, 2 extra wounds, 2 storm shields, high initiative power weapon attacks (as oppose to all PFs) and 5 individually equipped marines for more wound-allocation shenanigans. That's a good deal if you ask me. Do we need 2 of them? Probably not, so one will be a castellan + CS to save a further 15 points.
Marshal - TA, PW, SS - 135
Command Squad - 2 x CML, SS, 2 x CF, Tank Hunters - 250
Castellan - TA, PW, SS - 120
Command Squad - 2 x CML, SS, 2 x CF, Tank Hunters - 250
EC - Accept any Challenge - 140
That's 895 so far. We'll add in an regular termie squad with 2 x CMLs for a further 275 taking us to 1170. We still need a bit of melta love and troops. For 1750 lists, that needs to fit in to 580 points (gulp!) and 830 for 2k lists.
Troops wise, we can have some backfield support - Las Plas squads come in at 101pts base. We don't expect to see a lot of action from them, so they'll stay bare. 4 of those for the 2k list takes us to 1575, but we only have 20 scoring bodies. Let's add in a couple of neophytes for each of the squads for a further 80 points. With mix/matching weapons we have a lot of different wargear load-outs. We're now at 1655. For melta, our best option IMO is bikes.
Basic triple melta bikes are 126. Two of those are 252, 3 are 378. Dual melta bikes + MM attack bike comes in at 181... 2 are 362 so we need to drop 17 points - 2 neophytes bite the dust.
So we have...
Marshal - TA, PW, SS - 135
Command Squad - 2 x CML, SS, 2 x CF, Tank Hunters - 250
Castellan - TA, PW, SS - 120
Command Squad - 2 x CML, SS, 2 x CF, Tank Hunters - 250
EC - Accept any Challenge - 140
Terminators - 2 x CML, 2 x CF, Tank Hunters - 275
Crusader Squad - Plasma gun, Lascannon, 2 neophytes - 121
Crusader Squad - Plasma gun, Lascannon, 2 neophytes - 121
Crusader Squad - Plasma gun, Lascannon, 1 neophyte - 111
Crusader Squad - Plasma gun, Lascannon, 1 neophyte - 111
Bike Squad - Melta x 2, MM AB - 181
Bike Squad - Melta x 2, MM AB - 181
1996
I think it would compete with Kirby's 2k hybrid list, but I'm not totally happy to be honest. It's still a little light on troops and if I'm being honest, I'd like to add an extra Terminator squad. If we do that we'll have to lose one of the command squads, and probably the bikes. This would free up some points after buying 2 regular terminator squads to mix up the crusader squads - 100 point melta/MM squads may be an option to sneak up behind the terminators and hold and shoot. This however will take a bit of playtesting.
For 1750 however, we need some more thought.
Marshal - TA, PW, SS - 135
Command Squad - 2 x CML, SS, 2 x CF, Tank Hunters - 250
EC - Accept any Challenge - 140
Terminators - 2 x CML, 2 x CF, Tank Hunters - 275
Terminators - 2 x CML, 2 x CF, Tank Hunters - 275
Crusader Squad - Plasma gun, Lascannon, Neophyte - 111
Crusader Squad - Plasma gun, Lascannon, Neophyte - 111
Crusader Squad - Plasma gun, Lascannon - 101
Crusader Squad - Plasma gun, Lascannon - 101
Bike Squad - Melta x 2, Plasma gun - 122
Bike Squad - Melta x 2, Plasma gun - 122
1743
We lose a few scoring bodies, but maintain a similar output, which is probably a poor reflection of the 2k list to be honest. We lose something from dropping the command squad choice (I like ini4 PWs and SSs), but i think we need a good deal of tweaking.
My personal favourite by far though...
EC - AAC - 140
3 x 10 Assault terminators - 5 x TH/SS, 5 x PoLC, Furious Charge - 1290
Crusader Squad (6) - Meltagun, PF, neophyte x 5, Frag grenades - 182
Crusader Squad (6) - Meltagun, PF, neophyte x 6, Frag grenades - 193
Crusader Squad (6) - Meltagun, PF, neophyte x 6, Frag grenades - 193
1998
Can you take down 30 of the nastiest combat beasts in the world of 40K?
I'm going to stick at these and continue to develop these with time. I'll also try my hand with some hybrid lists so stay tuned.
