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Saturday, January 22, 2011

Herohammer In Summary: Key Army Design Concepts



In a Herohammer mindset, you are trying to build in all of the key concepts which we as gamers here on 3++ as well as on associate blogs profess as being the strong building blocks of a good player. Things such as army-wide redundancy, target saturation, blocking, suppression, resilience, and mobility to name just a few. The only issue is, you can't, not all of them anyways and those that you do are on a compacted scale. Herohammer is like taking everything that we here at 3++ is the New Black take as gospel in terms of a Competitively Balanced Army and throwing it out the window because no matter how much you try, you simply can't do it all. Instead you have to prioritise a few key concepts and work with them.

For me with the Space Wolf list it was i) Resilience, ii) The Ability to Take on All Comers for Each Model, iii) Emphasising Combat Superiority, iv) Mobility Without Armour, and v) The Cool Factor.
i) Resilience - you have to be able to survive everything thrown at you and keep on marching, luck may be needed, but the ability and the possibility is essential to the army. This is in essence invulnerable saves to as many models as possible. You don't have a commanding prescence on the board, your army is not a target saturated force, with 10 models at 1750pts against any of my standard lists where I am suppressing upwards of 12-16 targets on my opening salvo, each of those targets becomes one or even half of one of the 'Heroes', and so you need to be able to survive anything thrown your way.

ii) Ability to Take On All Comers for Each Model - Each model chews up massive amounts of your points, they need to be able to take on everything as losing your army is going to happen and happen fast and you simply do not have the target saturation to afford to specialise in one or two aspects only in different, but not all, units of the force. This is basically the only way you can work in redundancy to your army. Everything can take on everything else to an extent so it doesn't matter what your opponent kills or targets because every model in your army can deal with the opposing army to a degree.
iii) Emphasising Combat Superiority - You don't have the numbers or the individual firepower to be a firepower army. This leaves combat. If you hit combat, your opponents will get wiped out no matter what. Bells and Whistles, no holding back, ramp up those upgrades so as you can ignore armour saves and if you ran some light anti-infantry firepower (combi-flamers for example) take an upgrade which makes you better in combat (Mark of the Wulfen). See Points I & II above: You are resilient so can take hits in combat if you are packing a Thunder Hammer before you strike and still be around, but the ability to take on even toughness 8 monsters and wound them on all your models in the army is key (Frost Blades are brilliant on strength 4 bikers!). On that point, the difference between a Powerfist and a Thunder Hammer is usually 5 points, but that Thunder Hammer also auto-stuns vehicles and reduces enemies to your Initiative of 1 for future combat rounds, making sure you can stay alive to finish the job so don't skimp on the inferior items! Now, the best thing and a complete surprise as it didn't occur to me when building the list, is if you ignore armour saves in combat, you by-pass Feel No Pain. Dark Eldar, Blood Angels and Tyranids, all 5th ed codicies have Feel No Pain easily available to massed numbers of models and in the Dark Eldar and Tyranid cases especially, it is usually what keeps them alive, so ignoring it completely is a massive bonus in this emphasis on combat superiority.
iv) Mobility Without Armour - In the previous article, I mentioned how you are minimising models in the army design, in essence there's only room for the Heroes themselves and so vehicles don't really find a place in the army. This is important because against a Competitively Balanced Army with 2 or 3 Armoured Vehicles in your army at most, your armour is dead in your opponents first turn. It's as simple as that. So in a way you are mitigating all of this anti-tank firepower and eliminating it to a point, but that is another discussuon point entirely. The focus is that Mobility is key to a successful army as without it your opponent simply drives away and destroys you at range whilst you try, and fail every time, to play catch ups. So this is where other mobile options come into play. Bikers, Jump Packers, Cavalry, even Infiltrators/Scouts/Out Flankers wall into this category: Any option which allows your army to engage with the enemy sooner rather then later and in addition continue to engage with the enemy in later turns even if they decide to flee in their own transports, is one which needs to be seriously considered with the herohammer army in question.
v) The Cool Factor - This is nothing normally even considered in a Competitively Balanced Army. For Herohammer however...the simple rule of 'if it is cool and rarely seen because it isn't optimal or you can achieve the same thing but get extra bonuses with other options (e.g. TWL with twin frost weapons in my list instead of one witha Frost Weapon and a Plasma Pistol to still gain the extra attack in combat with the Frost Weapon but also gain a handy plasma shot at range just didn't gel with me, I've done some Historically Accurate Viking Re-enactment and know how easy and indeed smart it is to use a hand weapon and shield but two hand weapons is horrendously difficult to do and requires serious amounts of practice, especially when you are in the front rank of a battle line hundreds strong, it's the bad ass factor which appeals here and why the TWL has two frost weapons) then do it' is what drives this. I originally had The Warrior Born Twin-Frost Blade TWL with twin-Thunder Hammers because 15 str 10 TH attacks is epic...but practicality in army design still influences this point. It's personnal preference really. You have less then 20 guys in an army which usually numbers for foot at 80+ in the same points bracket, you want to go to town on the little touches. In all seriousness, I do reccommend people run the occasional guy with two chainfists, it is just sweet badass fun.
So, in a nutshell, that's the design premise behind a Herohammer list: You want the list to be as competitive as you can but you can't do everything so you need to excel in one or two key areas and be able to last long enough to deliver the blows, or at least to start delivering them.

Cheers everyone,

Auretious Taak.

P.S. One thing I forgot to mention in the last article was that I got bored of winning all my games when I put my mind to it and ran strong Competitively Balanced Armies, so i wanted something different. The Legion of the Damned army was the start and that was hilarious and indeed that is partially built as we speak, but the Herohammer concept and list provided a different avenue for game play and like my experiences in Mordheim, I appear to be making very few mistakes whilst running the Herohammer army for Space Wolves but also picking up alot more of the finer points of gameplay and the rules and how to apply them to my best advanatge on the field of battle. With larger armies, you don't always get that as you aren't being overly critical of every move you are making, it doesn't matter if you make a mistake you've got redundancy built in so prevalently that this protects you from your mistakes, but Herohammer is different, and that makes all the difference in continuing to want to play it against harder armies and better players.

Comments (16)

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The mental image of some crazy space marine tearing through enemy lines with a pair of chainfists has just made my weekend.
I love the concept of herohammer! If there were Thunder Cavalry models I would probably pickup 4 for Wolf Lords just for fun. If it were truly competitive then all the better. Oh well, maybe one day such will be the case. Involving the fluff of Warhammer more in the game play such as keeping track of models killed by one with saga of the warrior born just adds that much more to the game. Investing more effort into painting 4 uber models rather than 100 gaunts or whatever would be more likely as well.
Forty Three's avatar

Forty Three · 741 weeks ago

OMG what happened with the chatbawks!!!???!!!??
2 replies · active 741 weeks ago
Punished for being too politically incorrect.
And promptly brought back :P.
Very brief reply...

i) Resilience - Doesn't a power-armoured marine on a Thunderwolf with a storm shield drop wounds just as quickly as regular marines.
EDIT: I've just noted you have runic armour on the TW Lords, but this stands true for bikes and regular TWC.

ii) Ability to take on all comers - really?? Some lists will gun the hell into you before you get close and others will still outmaneuver you.

iii) Emphasising Combat Superiority - This is just not true. I know a lot of units that will quite happily hold the lines against some of your combat beasts. I also know a few that will wipe them out before they get to attack.

iv) Mobility without armour - "So in a way you are mitigating all of this anti-tank firepower and eliminating it to a point" - WTF? I'm more than happy to shoot lascannons, missiles and autocannons at thunderwolves as I am to shoot them at armour. This is what the whole 'mech doesn't necessarily mean vehicles' point. You have half a dozen hardy units, unfortunately they're not so hardy when there is nothing else in the list to absorb any fire.

v) The cool factor - can't argue with this one.

One last thing...

Taak, I like you, you seem like a pretty decent chap, but this...

"I got bored of winning all my games when I put my mind to it and ran strong Competitively Balanced Armies, so i wanted something different."

... makes you sound like an arse.
6 replies · active 741 weeks ago
It could very well be true though. If you play at a mainly fluffy club, for example, there's little fun in running optimised lists and smashing people, you'll probably get a better challenge and have more fun by trying to run Necrons or Footdar or Herohammer and win.
It may be true, but who publishes such a statement?

Why not spend your time teaching people rather than going and playing comphammer?
Auretious Taak's avatar

Auretious Taak · 741 weeks ago

Wouldn't be the first nor the last time I sound like an arse, it happens with me...

Also, we need to play vassal again, that 4-way was epic, get a one on one happening once I have this new computer up and running. :)

To your points BroLo:

i) Aye, a 3++ save die as fast as a 3+, but a 3++ can be taken against AP 1/2/3 weapons whereas a 3+ save can't. Bikers and TWL's also have T5 which against small arms fire makes a whole lot of difference. Also, Mixed Armour Units. I'll explore it more in another article, but bikers don't die to kraks when you take a 2+ save in the same unit. Independent Characters are damned useful. :)

"ii) Ability to take on all comers - really?? Some lists will gun the hell into you before you get close and others will still outmaneuver you."

This doesn't mean i can't take them on. The army has the ability built into it, if somehow the army makes it to a gunline, it will rip it apart. Mobile armies, well, meh, half my army can catch it, 1/5th the other half can gun it down at unlimited range whilst alive, and with str 8 Living lightning equivalent too at times. The important point was: The army has the ability to deal with the opponents. It doesn't mean it won't get tabled before it happens, but this is the same with one army verse another in any level of play.

iii) The army emphasises combat superiority as much as it can on an individual scale within the confines of the space wolf codex, thus the army emphasises combat superiority within the codex it is built from. I can't make it more powerful in combat on an individual scale. Lots of units will happily hold against isolated portions of the army, and some will even kick the crap out of it, but invulnerable saves still give that back up which many armies and many superior combat beasties can't deal with. Then there is combined charges, which do happen occasionally. The characters are as good as I can make them within the context of my codex, I can't ask for more then that. Yes, there are bigger beasties out there, but there's still limited shooting to soften that sorta stuff up and then it's purely lets see who fails their invulnerable saves first and pray for the luck gods to bless you. :) So I'm gonna have to agree to disagree with you on this point BroLo.

iv) It makes sense in my head. Words abandon me at the time of typing this. :p
Auretious Taak's avatar

Auretious Taak · 741 weeks ago

Also, BroLo,

You and others seem to be under the impression that I only play comp friendly armies outside of tournaments. this isn't the case. Just because a tournament scene is primarily comp based doesn't mean players who don't attend tournies or who do, don't play hardcore non-comp armies outside of it. As to teaching people, I've tried and tried and tried. Sad thing is, people aren't listening, or have a go at me and when you play people in a GW store (Sydney Battle Bunker excepted because a chunk of them are used to JasonC aka Cheddar and his non-comp based armies and thoughts/tactics - he is also a billiant War of the Rings player too) and you tell them before the games that they will be dead within 2-3 turns because they can't beat my army reliably and they ignore you and say they'll do fine, or it's in theme or whatever, what can you do? It gets annoying listening to your own voice after a while when no one is paying attention and only losing to you. It doesn't mean I don't play other people where the games are close and the win/loss ratio is roughly even, but for the majority it's table them and do it relatively fast. Worst thing is dropping down 12-14 vehicles at 1500pts and having an entire shop of gamers at a GW store stand gob smacked because you have more tanbks then anyone ever uses and it's unfair or stupid and where are the troops and look at how many kill points there are, you're so gonna lose this kill point mission et al. It's really shitty to be honest. I like a challenge, so I have been building 'stupid' armies and running them for a while now, occasionally one works exceedingly well and I'll run it against non-comp armies just as much as comp ones. In steps Herohammer with the same aim as I usually have for a tourney, win one game per tourney. I may even take it to Event Horizon in May if it is ready in time (it's not just 10 models to build and paint, the 3 WG Bikers are made up at this point of 8 individual models, 3 bikes and a whole bunch of terrain!).
Auretious Taak's avatar

Auretious Taak · 741 weeks ago

P.S. Event Horizon is Non-Comp 1850pts, so I'll need to re-jig some stats/points and either add in some Lone Wolves or expand a WG unit, because a CML would be nice...
I like the idea of Herohammer. I think I will swap the speed of Bikes for some extra range of Cyclones and resilience of terminators. Slightly more bodies but still six kill points. The other idea I had was replace one Lord with 3x Lone Wolves with SS/Chainfist.

1750 Points Herohammer -
Logan & Njal Stormcaller
5 Terminators – Rockfist; SS/PW; SS/PW/MBombs; SS,Combi-Flamer & MotW; SS/PW,CML
5 Terminators – 1xCombi-Flamer/PW; 3x SS/PW; 1x SS/PW,CML
Lord – Thunderwolf, Plasma Pistol & Frostblade, Runic Armour, Belt, Necklace, Saga: Warrior Born
Lord – Thunderwolf, Runic Armour, SS/TH, Necklace
2 replies · active 741 weeks ago
Auretious Taak's avatar

Auretious Taak · 741 weeks ago

Lyracian,

Another concept would be to ditch Arjac. His 170pts on top of the basic WG cost of 18pts is alot of points. Indeed it is exactly the same cost as 2 Lone Wolves with TDA+SS+CF. I'd also consider ditching the Plasma Pistol on the Warrior Born TWL and taking a Storm Shield. That extra point of invulnerable save will do a heck of alot more then the single extra attack in combat and whilst a plasma pistol shot is nice, you'll be fleeting more then shooting...give him Melta-bombs too so he can deal with heavy armour if he splits from his TWL Buddy...who should have Saga of the Bear. SERIOUSLY, Saga of the Bear is the TWL you take over Saga of the Warrior Born because you really need that guarantee that a railgun or 3 (for the averages to penetrate and you take a wound) will not instant death your 260+ point model. It also allows wounds allocation shannanigans for the two lords whilst they run together.

here's another concept: In one of your WQG units, make 3 of the Terminators Bikers. You are stuck at foot movement and don't have a 2+ save, but you have a majority Toughness of 5, and even attaching either Njal or Logan to the unit will then give them T5 as well (so long as only 1 of them joins for majority toughness to0 be even thus taking the highest Toughness) it also allows options because you might want the terminators to die, that CML might not be the best tool for the job whereas the speed of the bikers will be, so it's intelligent playing and killing off things that would slow you down or taking wounds which can kill some thing but not others. Not sure on the points as codex is not to hand but fiddle a bit. There's ALOT of variation that can be done.

For reference, I don't think my original 1500pt list works as I really need Njal in there but can't afford to lose one of the TWL's so I re-jigged it the other day and I lose alot of the flexibility, but retain the model count and exact models 9well some different wargear et al) at 1500pts, with the expansion to 1750pts allowing the addition of 3 Lone Wolves in TDA with SS's and CF's or an equivalent 3 85pt models. Oh, I lose Arjac to do it, but then I can get almost 3 WG with TH+SS+TDA for the cost of Arjac so that needs to be balanced too as he is quite nasty. So fiddle and mess with points and mess around. You could try 5 TDA WG incl CML, 3 Biker WG and then take some LF's with say Lascannons (need the extra strength for the armour out there, anti-infantry isn't so much an issue with so few ranged guns in the force, though MM's could be useful) and attach a WG and Logan to the unit for example. Make the Fang leader a combat buddy and you get an interesting unit composition that again messes around with rules and also gives you more options ingame for yet a different game approach depending on your opponent. It's still gonna be one heck of a challenge, but boy will it be fun!
Thanks for the suggests. A mixed Biker/Terminator unit could be interesting. If I replace Rockfist with a normal TH/SS model I have enough points for a Lone Wolf and Saga of the Bear. Logan's Longfangs is also an interesting idea. Maybe a mix of MM & Las to keep the points down. Between Relentless and Tank Hunter they should be good at slaying tanks.

I had taken the plasma pistol for the extra attack rather than the shot. I do see your point though that the extra point of Invulnerable save is probably more use. Getting only a single attack with Meltabombs seems a waste when I can have six @ Str 6 with the Frostblade or at Str 5, Rending with Tooth and claw.
Taak, you can't pull it off in a decent tournament environment.

Your 10 models will die verse most armies without a problem. Cryx cup wasn't exactly a hard tournament, and sure, versing assault marine armies like Shakey's I imagine your army would do well. You're asking for trouble at a decent tournament though (with more than 3 games) and even more at a no-comp shin dig.

It is funny, and funnier that you did well at Cryx, but play harder. You can take a balanced (strong) army list and do far better with it understanding tactics than trying cute things all the time.

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