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Saturday, February 26, 2011

What's acceptable in your hobby - theme



Recently, I dropping into a flaming rant from our favourite author VT2 about what is and what is not acceptable in the hobby. It lead into an interesting thought:

Are there limits to what is acceptable to players when it comes to the hobby?

I apologize in advance if this comes off like it should be on another leading hobby blog, but I feel it is work exploring.

Firstly, 3++ does not support any of the logos that may show up on this page.
Second... I didn't mean this to get as heavy as it did...

So, in your personal experience, what do you find acceptable.
There are some strange things that came out of the conversation with VT2.

For instance, the thought of large phallic objects and breasts on a Slanneshi model was acceptable. Obviously around the younger crowd this would be frowned upon, but the blatent sexualisation of miniatures was deemed fine.

However, for some, the use of the Nazi insignia is just a nono, regardless of the quality of the paintjob, theme, etc

Click for the Dakka Dakka blog, its spec-tacular.

This is a beautiful model, and if it wasn't adorned with Nazi insignia (and instead, say, the Emporer) would be applauded. However, how do you feel about it? Realistically, the goal of the hobby is to enjoy it in your own way, but possibly one must also consider the feelings of the person on the other side of the table. When you deploy, how do you know how the person opposite you will react to your army? Every army in 40k has a level of "real-world" tie-in... how much is acceptable?

This example is fine for Warhammer 40k, but beyond our corner of the gaming hobby, would it be appropriate in Flames of War?

Where do you draw the line? Is it only sociall acceptable to model your armies as the "winners" in a war?
Is it acceptable to bring real-life events and armies onto your tabletop, regardless?
How do you know if the person opposite's grandfather was killed by an SS officer, Japanese POW camp, British officer or in Hiroshima?

Comments (90)

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I find an excellent philosophy came from a popular cartoon show: Either everything is potentially funny, or nothing is. In my mind that actually applies across several areas - in this case "Either everything is acceptable or nothing is". Saying "Boobs are fine, but not swastikas" smacks of hypocrisy to me. I am happy to see anyones models done out in the theme of their choice, and I won't pass judgement on it, because they have a right to do whatever they like with the models they bought and paid for. I have to wonder why breasts (which are relatively pleasant and attractive things) are not acceptable on models for people under a certain age, but no-one has problems with the new Warhammer Forge Nurgle models (which are some of the most nauseating and sickening miniatures I have ever seen - which is exactly what Nurgle is about). If Timmy is old enough to start caring about boobs, in all liklihood he's seen them before.
In my oppinion a nazi tank is perfectly acceptable not that it has anything to do with imperial guard, boobs, big deal you see them at a beach or in a newspaper all the time. Im sure theres a line but these things dont cross it, maybe a nazi tank driving towards a gas chamber objective while women have sex on it, i dare say that would upset plenty of people.
1 reply · active 691 weeks ago
Actually, it's not a Nazi tank that's shown... It's an Iron Cross. Something like a Medal of Honour, but German, that's still used today. So I find that acceptable...

But about the rest...
I wouldn't be bothered, probably amused actually, to play against a rolling incinerator tank laden with swastikas and gay pride rainbows shooting flaming Jew corpses posed mid-coitus out of a giant cock catapult while running over puppies and kitties, crewed by Obama, Santa and Jesus.
1 reply · active 740 weeks ago
Warboss Stalin's avatar

Warboss Stalin · 740 weeks ago

you need to put a Klan member in the coupala
I draw the line with nazis.
Not just swastikas, but models that look like they were dressed by the SS.
2 replies · active 740 weeks ago
My opinion is that it's a real shame some people are still so tied up in political correctness that they can't appreciate a well painted miniature just because of what it may be representing.

Would high quality artwork of Satan, Saddam Hussein, or Colonel Goddafi be as repugnant to you? (genuine curiousity)
wisdom like silence's avatar

wisdom like silence · 740 weeks ago

If it was in a game set in a fictional setting, yes. Acknowledging history is one thing. Fetishising and decontextualising it is entirely another. Satan is a mythical creature and I have no problem with putting depictions of him in a game, though. Hussein and Gadaffi would be entirely appropriate in a modern-combat game like Ambush Alley, but not as Space Marine or Imperial Guard army themes in the year 40,000.
The Nazi theme is far from the 'worst' for me... it is something that doesn't offend me. But I can appreciate why others would. But then how do others feel about rape being portrayed? Or child abuse...
http://www.coolminiornot.com/266249
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=262519&...

Those two links are NOT work/child friendly... especially the last one.
3 replies · active 740 weeks ago
Interestingly what seems to happen allot (like on that coolminiornot link) is that people who take offense to these things are very desperate to make themselves be heard. In the above case so much so that they chose to "ruin" the rating by using it to express their malcontent rather than rate the craftmanship in the minitures displayed. Not trying to criticize people who do this, just something that seems odd to me.
Wow, that is some ugly content.

I don't see why someone would want to paint and model such a thing. It's not as if GW stuff is dull and boring that you need to trawl through humanities darkness to get something worth painting.
Extra sad that such skilful artists would bother to stoop to such ugly things.

Unless they were trying to raise awareness about such things. Though I couldn't see such a message from the artists....?

If people can't see there is a difference between toy soldiers and the war it represents, that is fine. I am surprised that the distinction cannot be made though - we are intelligent and reasoning beings after all.
Wow... some people are really screwed-up in the head.
If someone threw down a Nazi themed army, I'd still play them. Because its there army. They took the time to paint them up, build the lists, buy the models. Provided, of course, that they were a normal person.

Which is where the line should be drawn.

Because its not for me to judge what a person believes, feels or thinks. That's entirely his domain. But the moment he starts trying to push an ideology, that's where I draw the line.

Of course, In Australia, I've found that most people don't give a shit. There's always someone ready to throw a wet blanket onto something (The vocal minority, if you will) but apart from that, most war gamers are mature, reasonable people.

It all comes down to a matter of taste, I suppose.
2 replies · active 740 weeks ago
It can be argued that representation is perpetuation, even when it's done knowingly, ironically, or with an intent to defang. I'm not saying that's necessarily the case, but consider the impact of passive consumption. When someone sees that army and doesn't think about or discuss the conceit behind the paint scheme, problems may occur.
This. You can't stop people from exercising their creative rights over their miniatures, and you can't stop people from being offended by what they see.

I think the best-case-scenario for this type of tension (similarly to that which Abuse discusses below with hyper-sexualized representations on miniatures) is that it opens the door to discussion about concepts like abstraction, appropriation, exploitation, and commercialism.

"Obliterating" the atrocities committed by the Nazis from the public consciousness seems like a sure-fire way to allow something like that to happen again; however, as Von points out, there's a difference between navigating a contentious and difficult topic and just grabbing onto symbolism without thinking about the ideology that it was used to promote.

For me, the difference between something like playing the Germans in FoW and painting swastikas on Fantasy / Sci-Fi armies is this:

In FoW, you are playing an army for its composition and tactics - the game itself, despite being grounded historically, seems to "strip" much of the history out of the game (and, furthermore, also allows you to create a schism between Germany, a fine country that was run at one point by proponents of a devastating ideology, and the Nazis, who believed in the genocide of those not like themselves - it's a fine line to walk, since we so often associate national identity with the ruling (if not most prevalent) ideology, but it is a line that I believe exists).

In games not based on WWII, you are actively introducing the Nazi ideologies INTO a setting where they don't currently exist in that particular combination. This isn't to say that themes of genocide don't exist in 40k (and, in fact, are part of what makes the story so compelling - even in an "Us Vs. Them" mentality, the "Us" in the form of the Imperium is intentionally pretty unsympathetic); however, the particulars of the horrors committed by the Nazis are either absent, veiled, or complicated to the point where they aren't all wrapped up and promoted by the Imperial eagle. Pushing swastikas into 40k also pushes a unique combination of ideological components ONTO the game, rather than stripping them away.

TL;DR: If you're playing a WWII game with an awareness of what your paint scheme might evoke in others and imply about you (and a willingness to reflect on these issues), then you're probably ok; if you're running around yelling "Nazis are awesome" then you're either Conan O'Brien doing the "INAPPROPRIATE" skit (and even that only went so far as Saddam Hussein), or you're just wrong.
Honestly? Don't care.
I think, for me, it would boil down to what you're willing to plunk down in front of a stranger. I wouldn't, as a rule, want to drop down a model adorned with a swastika (unless I was playing FoW) or exposed breasts/genitals because those are things that may potentially make the game very uncomfortable for my opponent. They're social no-nos in general company and this is pretty widely known.

That being said, one of the objective markers at my FLGS _is_ a topless woman; everyone is okay with this, which sets a standard of what's okay there. It's all about knowing what the comfort zones of the guy on the other side of the table are, and whether you're willing to cross them for a model.

That's not to say any of those things are in good taste, but, to quote- "Good taste, what a wretched thing!"
Nazis did horrific things to a medium section of the world, and the people there. As humans, this is abhorrent to us. I'm pretty sure that whales would probably read the Japanese flag in a very way (kind of off topic, but an interesting thought there).

Now, the Imperium does horrible things to it's citizens, as well as other cultures, but as far as we understand, 40k isn't real, right? So, yeah. There are ways in which a person can joke about something, and others in which they'd find the same thing creepy as hell. So, yeah, joking about Nazis? Ok. Painting your 40k minis as them? Weird.....
1 reply · active 740 weeks ago
Warboss Stalin's avatar

Warboss Stalin · 740 weeks ago

Those Time-Life WW2 books will change your mind about even joking about nazis. The picture of the grandpa and his grandkid walking naked toward the execution trench make the nazi's pretty un-fucking funny....
I have no problems at all playing vs an german (or nazi) themed army.

Like many have said before, it's the other person's army, his/her money and time invested.

As far as I care the game its about having fun, and you have fun due to gamer interaction and the odd even in game (like an immobilized predator sooting 1 lascannon at a w serpent which just turbo-boosted into your objective and watch the guy fail his 4+ ssave and the re-roll, costing him the game :D - Priceless)

Anyway point is, except from Germany and Austria(?) IIRC, there's no formal law banning these icons, so game on.
Also, if you don't like the other player army theme, victory will taste much sweeter to you ;)
So because the army is themed on WW2 germany its racist/antisemitic? That sounds pritty ignorant to me.

Follow this logic would people be offended playing against a tallarn desert raider army because we all know Arabs are terrorists right? how about Praetorian guard, we all know they rounded up black people for slaves and killed Americans who wanted independance? Then theres Valhallan guard, wow dont get me started on those russians.

40k lore is derrived from our history in one way or another. Imperiel guard regiments are predominantly drawn from real armies, its all part and parsel of the game. I think for people to flame this amazingly painted army because its based on WW2 germany is wrong. Not all germans killed jews, thats a fact, and there is nothing i have seen in that army which zeros in on that part of WW2.

What happened to the Jewish people was a tragedy but to ignore that by saying no one should be able to have a WW2 germany theme is just wrong.
20 replies · active 705 weeks ago
The swastika has inseperable connections to Nazi Germany and the racist ideologies that it championed. Being surprised by this is... silly. If you just want a WW2 Germany-themed army... don't paint swastikas onto them. The tanks, uniforms, and gear are all quite distinctive and don't carry nearly so heavy a burden of associations with them.

There is a fine line between historical interest and the sort of obsessive idealization that sometimes accompanies that sort of thing. In a similar vein, some American Civil War reenactors are cool guys, and others are kinda creepy and LOVE to talk about the grand ol' South, lament the War of Northern Aggression, etc, etc. Those guys, to me at least, come off as liking the era a bit too much and basically pretending that horrible, horrible acts weren't committed in the name of their nation.

That doesn't mean I think they should be banned from doing so, but it affects my opinion of them. You do not have an inaliable right over other people's opinions- the things you do and say have consequences.
I'd say its a matter of it not belonging to the setting I'd dislike seeing the american or brittsh flags as much as seeing the nazi flag.

And in regard to people liking their history to much: in war all sides do horrible things, the north and south both did and the nazis and allies both did.
First, a note: I notice that you didn't use the word "Nazis" in your post, so please don't think that this is aimed directly at you - this was simply a reasonable place to connect to with my point. Now then:

"Not all germans killed jews" - definitely a valid point, and one which is particularly relevant once again in a Post-9/11 America. By extension, not all Germans were Nazis, which I'm sure we can agree on.

However, the swastika symbol in particular came to be used as a propaganda device (a self-representation, if you will) by the Nazis - inseparable from the ideology they espoused, which included acceptance for racial genocide.

Try as we might, we cannot divorce the signifier (the swastika) from what was signified (atrocities). If you are electing to use the symbol, don't be surprised when it brings with it connotations of all the horrors with which it is associated; and, given the propensity of the qualities of icons to transfer onto the people using them (think back to when Tiger Woods got dumped from the advertising of a bunch of companies and why they might have done that), don't be surprised when people thus take issue with you.
willydstyle's avatar

willydstyle · 740 weeks ago

If you really wanted to do a "german" theme rather than a Nazi theme, you wouldn't be using swastikas at all, as the Wehrmacht did not use that symbol. Personally, I prefer to keep real-life themes out of my game, and I would suggest that the player look at one of the established in-universe analogs for out-of-control fascists.
I will start by saying you both make good points and i can see where you're coming from. I can't say that i can fully agree with either of you, what the Nazi party did under the swastika is well known, but to make the use of what is essentially a Buddhist symbol taboo is dissapointing in my view.

While the Nazi party will always be a sensitive subject it almost seems people are unwilling to openly acknowledge it as part of our history. There will always be a fine line between provocative and disrespectful when it comes to such topics as these yet from the images of the army it is neither. The swastika is used purely for a visual tie in to the theme of the army rather than in an uneccisary confrontational way.
Most German soldiers fought for there country and not to comit genocide, to focus on that and not allow yourself to acknowledge the average german soldier and to view this is subjectively in that way still seems wrong to me. The holocaust was a tragedy but to exclude WW2 Germany as a theme because of that is a decision people need to make on there own. I only ask people to be honest with themselves and think about this, do you feel the same way about WW2 american themes even though they dropped two A-bombs on cevillian cities?
"do you feel the same way about WW2 american themes even though they dropped two A-bombs on cevillian cities"

Actually, I do in some cases! I think the "mushroom cloud" remains a tasteless and overused symbol in American culture, and, while absolutely acknowledging that 9/11 was a horrible and devastating moment four our country, I thought the use of "Ground Zero" (often used to denote the point of detonation of nuclear weapons, such as the two we dropped on innocent civilians) got used more as a term to rile up sentiment than to connect that atrocity to those we committed.

Edit: I forgot to include that I thought your question was a good one for any American to ask themselves, about so many things that we so easily condemn in other nations.
moug: The thing is, Nazis have been stigmatized because they lost, and because of the support given to the jewish community by the western powers after the war. Let us not forget, there were, and are, very powerful jew people that financially back governments such as the US.

Anyway my point is many people talk smack about the nazi germans, but knowingly ignore the atrocities their governments have committed.
The Nazis also committed atrocities far in excess of those of any of the other wartime countries (bar the Soviet Union) and did so with the tacit support of their citizenry. That does not mitigate or excuse the crimes of other countries- Allied firebombing raids killed thens of thousands and were specifically targeted at civillians; American internment of Japanese-born citizens was an out and out violation of our own constitution; Japan itself massacred populances, institutionalized rape, and deployed chemical weapons in battle. No country is innocent, but Nazi Germany's crimes easily eclipse most because they _systematically_ murdered an enormous number of people as part of an explicit strategy to do so.
As did US-backed military governments in Latin America. For those of you who don't know, they _sistematically_ kidnapped and murdered politicians, intellectuals, university students and so on, arguing that they 'dismantling communist guerrilla movements' (a blatant lie, of course). These governments had some support from the citizenship, too. And that wasn't even wartime. Nobody talks about this, yet the Nazis get all the talk in the world.

Stalin did his own Purges too, but the Nazis are far more popular. I insist, Nazis are over-stigmatized.
I feel this disscusion has digressed away from my original intent. I must say considering this is on the internet it has remained free of outragious and unfounded statements that the anonymity of the internet allows and i am enjoying this. But i am seeing a trend appearing that people are seeing the WW2 german army and the holocaust being one and the same. I find it far more interesting that abusepuppy has encompassed all german citizens with this aswell. It seems you are spreading the blame of the holocaust onto the german people and i feel that is somewhat unfair. I will not deny that the people allowed this to occur but by the time the systematic killing of jews became common place it was beyond there controll. I would like to tie in your example of the internment of Japanese-Americans with this. Look at the unnerving similarity between the initial persecution of the jews in Germany started and the persecution of Japanese in America. Both events were allowed to happen not necissarily by war but by civilian sentiment.
willydstyle's avatar

willydstyle · 740 weeks ago

So your point is that Nazi armies are OK because while the Germans under Hitler killed millions of innocents, the U.S. kept a few hundred thousand Japanese in camps? IMO these are all reasons not to play *any* RL-themed force in 40k.
If you woud like my opinion in a nutshell here it is.
Nazis=BAD! WW2 Germany =/ =Nazis
To focus on the holocaust when talking about the WW2 German army is a bias almost everyone inherits from high school history. I think people need to take a step back acknowledge the gravity of these events yet not take a blindly ignorant view of history. The replies to my original post have been well thought out yet they will inherintly all have a bias and a point of view, i acknowledge i have a different way of looking at this than other people hence i have a bias. Were this discussion has been more academic in style as far as putting our points forward and allowing others to evaluat them, your post has more of a tone along the lines of a 16 year old who just watches saving privat rhyan and thinks that if he uses a loud voice people will think your right.

I suggest you open your mind to other thoughts and re-read the posts before posting a bastedized summery of the discussion
willydstyle's avatar

willydstyle · 740 weeks ago

If you re-read *my* posts, you will see that I openly admit that the Wehrmacht does not equal the SS or the Nazis. You seem to be the only one I've read who even talks about people equating the German people or the Wehrmacht with the Nazi party. I'm not quite sure *who* you are arguing against here, or why you are arguing.
After Pearl Harbour the people were fueld by fear and anger, they demanded action. These emotions were targetted at the Japanese and taken out on innocent people. Now think how much stronger those emotions would have been after WW1 and the way Germany was treated and how strong that resentment and unrest would have been. These conditions allowed Hitler to rise to power, he was amongst other things a charismatic and intelligent man who was easily able to use those feelings and focus them on the Jewish population. The holocaust is no more the German peoples fault than say France who created the conditions Hitler needed to rise to power.

A more recent example of this would be post 9/11 America. The fear caused by such a tragedy was foccused and harnessed by the George busy government to start 2 wars. People were confussed and afraid after what happened, they were litteraly in the streets demanding blood for what had happened. I hope no one takes this example as me calling George Bush the next Hitler or as America bashing, Its only ment to show how a government can controll the emotions of the people after a tragic event. Think of it this way, if 9/11 hadn't happened do you think we would be at war in Afganistan or Iraq?
willydstyle's avatar

willydstyle · 740 weeks ago

And what does any of that have to do with painting swastikas on little men?
Not much to be honest. It's in reply to abusepuppy and CptFornost posts. it dose however have alot to do with my opinion on WW2 German army themes and why i feel people taking such strong offence to these themes is wrong.
Most people don't get offended by WW2 German armies, they get offended by Nazi armies. Important distinction.
I don't think that's true. Yes, there were reasons that Hitler rose to power- that still does not excuse the German people from what followed. It's not like Hitler was subtle about his feelings on the Jewish people, or that any of what happened was particularly secretive- it was pretty knowledge that Jews were being rounded up and sent far away and none of them ever came back, that their assets were being seized without pretense, and that they were in all possible ways second-class citizens.

Likewise, the failures of morality and law following Pearl Harbor and 9/11 were each permitted by the American people (or at least enough of them) at the time. If the Bush administration had rounded up five million Muslims and put them to death, then yeah, I'm pretty sure that the republican symbology would be treated the same way as Nazi symbolism i now.

Causes of a tragedy are not excuses for the behavior. I can understand what caused those events, but it doesn't make any of them right. Some Germans, and some Americans, fought against what happened in their countries, certainly, and those people are to be commended. neither Germany nor America as a whole should be villified for what happened. The German flag is NOT held as a symbol of racism, the _Nazi_ flag is.
Eh the brittish invented the idea of death camps in south africa, the armenians invented the idea of holocaust.
willydstyle's avatar

willydstyle · 740 weeks ago

If I see someone with a Nazi army with swastikas all over it, I don't get offended. I assume that they like nazis. I choose not to associate with people who like nazis.
1 reply · active 740 weeks ago
This, one thousand times.
I think the Nazi theme actually works well for 40k. I wouldn't be suprised if there's 30 or so Grimdark-type Hitlers running around in the galaxy, since 'there is only war' in the far, far future.
Nazis ALWAYS make for great bad guys in movies and video games, don't they?
I can't see some rascist skinhead type painting a miniature army to glamorize the 'Nazi Agenda,' or whatever. I just don't think a gamer would do it for that reason.
The whole 'politically correct' thing is outta hand, I think, if someone is going to be 'offended' over imagery such as this, on toy tanks, no less.
Yeah, let's supress everything that may potentially offend anyone. *sigh* Let's not get started down THAT road, please.
I'm not gonna ask if 'minorities are properly represented in 40k,' cuz that's next.
4 replies · active 740 weeks ago
Comedy nazis, yes.
Mecha-hitler, overseer Olga, the Shewolf of the SS...

There's a difference between Hitler yelling "SWINEHUNDT!" from aboard his minigun-armed mechasuit, and painting swastikas on your dreadnoughts.

Let's not forget that, in many parts of the world, anything related to the nazis and their symbols is a crime.
>I just don't think a gamer would do it for that reason.
You have a much higher opinion of humanity than me. Racist assholes come in all shapes and sizes, including gamer size (XXXL, for reference.)

40K, for all its GRIMDARK, isn't really a serious setting. It has men with chainsaw swords cutting down infinite hordes of fungous men. Ignoring the real effects of planetary genocide that happens so regularly in the universe is sort of part and parcel.

I find it odd that you consider getting offended over a direct reference to one of the most heinous crimes against humanity "political correctness." I mean, I'm not really offended, but I'm not really offended by anything but stupidity and small-mindedness. I think, assuming this is a 40K model and not FoW, it's probably done in poor taste, but that's the creator's decision. If I tell dead baby jokes, there are also some people who consider that poor taste and it reflects on me. Choosing to like or dislike, associate or not associate is not "censorship" or "political correctness," it's just me exercising my right to choose what I believe.
Please, for the love of sanity, don't start with the dead baby jokes. I wish I understood why they were so popular amongst gamers. Everywhere I've gone, everywhere I've played, there have always been people telling dead baby jokes...
They're popular because they're offensive, simple as that.
When I see a massively phallic Slanessh army, or an army of female space marines with ridiculously oversized breasts molded onto their armor, I don't really see that as a problem in an of itself- but it usually speaks volumes about the person who made them- i.e. the people I've seen in real life that have done this have had really weird things going on with sexuality or were just really creepy, overweight dudes. I can speak from experience- I've played this game for 10 years or so, and when I was a horrendously undersexed virgin, I just HAD to make an army of sexy slanessh- naked daemonettes, corrupted sisters, and the like (never finished, thank god). That said, I'd really like to see an army of Khornate Sisters (It even has an easy name! Sisters of Slaughter!), and might just make one up myself when sister plastics come out. :P

This doesn't mean that it always happens this way, but I've seen a trend to this- of course, a lot of this can come from artists who chose to display their talents and/or use their skills in a strange way, like the eldar rape scene shown above (or this beautifully sculpted tentacled rhino with a... sister of battle I saw once- made by an a fore mentioned creepy guy. D :) It seems that people who create these types of things are creating pretty much a massive, physical manifestation of some strange Freudian hangup.

Regarding the Nazi painting, I don't think it is some sort of way that closeted racists get their jollies, but the product of someone enamored with either a romanticized version of the nazi background, or that they think the nazi symbolism is just cool looking. I'd gladly play against both armies (if the guy is fun to play against) even if what they did was a bit, in my opinion, tasteless.

All in all, it really depends on the person, just like when it comes to racial/gender/homosexuality jokes- you can usually tell when a person is just kidding, or when they actually have issues regarding what they are talking about.

That said, I did see a pretty deplorable guy who once had the 'spear chukka' crew of his orcs painted black in an other wise standard army. Real classy dude.
I think that as long as th person isn't pushing a view or theory over to the other player then it is perfectly acceptable. However if they were to model jews getting killed, I would draw the line. However if they have a Nazi themed army the I would guess they like Nazis, and I choose not to be friends with people that like Nazis.

But then again the whole culture of the Imperium is one of constant discrimantion like "Abhor the Witch" and "Beware the Alien, Mutant and Heretic", Its the same as a planet, just on a lager scale.

It is their army which has their time and money invested.
I can't say I'd be happy to play alongside a swastika-laden rhino. I think 40k is science fiction game that should be for the realm of make-believe, not the glorification of a racist belief. If you want to paint models with such icons, there are plenty of wargames around that are more 're-enactment' based (FoW).

With regards to MoD's links and most things like this, I ask myself would I be happy to look upon such things if I or somebody close to me had been on the receiving end of some of these atrocities. My answer would be no. It's not that these things should be hidden away, but i disagree with them being cartoonised.
2 replies · active 740 weeks ago
wisdom like silence's avatar

wisdom like silence · 740 weeks ago

"I think 40k is science fiction game that should be for the realm of make-believe, not the glorification of a racist belief."

Exactly. 40K is a fictional setting. Putting Nazis in your fictional setting is clearly fetishistic because there is no context for their existence. It just shows you like Nazis. Playing Nazis in FoW is fine because FoW provides a historical context for Nazi Germany.
willydstyle's avatar

willydstyle · 740 weeks ago

Even in FoW people more often play Wermacht forces rather than SS forces.
I'm going to go ahead and put a big bulls eye on my forehead by saying what happened to your grandmother was 70 odd years ago - time to move on.

Getting upset by something that happened decades before you were born shows weak character, in my opinion. Hell, when aboriginal people see the Australian flag do they have a bitch and moan about it? None I've ever come across have, and they suffered plenty at the hands of the English.
See, that dude is being a tool. Having the SS army is... well in extremely bad taste, but actively shoving it in your face is just being a shitheel. At the same time, however, the army belongs to him and it's his to do with as he pleases. I realize it evokes some very painful things, but it's his decision to choose to do so, just as it's your free choice to tell him to burn in hell with all the delusional fuckwads who believe in that sort of thing.

(I have actually seen the Guardsman with a Demolition Charge modeled as a "terrorist," btw. It's every bit as classy as you'd expect.)
I wonder if people whose families are of Scandinavian origin go weak at the knees when playing against a Space Wolves army, since they're all vikings and 500 years ago vikings plundered and raped their village.

Hell, Lukas The Trickster is practically a terrorist, probably shouldn't use him in games against Americans in case it makes them faint.
No one in living memory personally remembers having their village burned down and family slaughtered by Vikings. Viking persecution of the peoples of coastal Europe is not a real and ongoing thing that society has to deal with.

I'm sure as (gonna go out on a limb with a guess here) a white middle class Westerner it's pretty easy to say "Man, get over it!" because the worst persecution you've ever endured is when the mall security guard told you you had to leave J.C. Penny because you were being too loud, but for some people of the world it actually is a real issue.
I'm not questioning whether or not persecution is a genuine and current issue, and you're right about me rarely being on the receiving end (although I am a white westerner, the rest of your example is off). Being from Australia I've never experienced persecution the likes of what occurs in the rest of the world, whether witnessed or been subject to, but it does happen regardless.

My point is that it's not Nazi Germany doing the persecuting any more, and it's extremely unlikely that anyone involved in the hobby was on the receiving end of said persecution. Whether it happened to your grand father at the hands of Nazi's or your great-great-great grandfather at the hands of Vikings is irrelevant, I believe.

Granted the viking example is quite a long way back, but horrendous things have been done by all cultures over the world at one point or another, if everybody got so hung up on them all as they had with the Nazi's the world would end up like Israel is today.

I understand a grudge, or hatred due to acts commited - but people take it too far with things like how a toy has been painted. If more people formed their opinions based on facts rather than emotion the world would be a simpler place.

I appreciate your perspective, but disagree with you.
The WFB character's name was Kemmler and I didn't pick up any overt references to the Holocaust in his background (for reference, I have a background in textual analysis and cultural studies, so I'm not just some ignorant schlub from the Nets who wouldn't know an allusion if it was underlined three times in pink neon with footnotes, although I'm hardly an exhaustively informed Nazi specialist). I'd be interested in discussing your interpretation; that is, if you wouldn't object.
The issue is, what does swastika and Nazi insignia bring to one's army theme? Nothing, absolutely nothing. At best, such symbols are needlessly provoking. I'd rather face a 1st Edition Slaanesh army with exposed genitalia, thank you.
3 replies · active 705 weeks ago
I've seen an army that has had a brilliant fluff background relating to the Nazi symbolism which related that history period to the Imperium's stance to...well everything. The guy was very open about his army potentially causing issues and had another army to play if anyone got really antsy but his reasoning certainly made sense.

Remember also the plain old swastika isn't Nazi in origin but rather religious. Obviously when you combine it with the German color scheme, SS icongraphy, etc. it's obviously a Nazi reference but I've seen quite a few people get antsy over just plain old swastikas when it was a reference to a different period of time.
wisdom like silence's avatar

wisdom like silence · 738 weeks ago

Nazi swastikas are reversed and tilted 45 degrees from the swastika of religious origin. The design is quite deliberately different.
actually they both are, they ar eboth eastern religious symbols with two diffrent opposing meanings. a bit like the two diffrent sides of the ying-yang symbol.
I don't know why you get mad at Nazi paintjobs. Like the US haven't done MUCH MORE than their fair share of torturing, brainwashing, triggering coup d'etats through sleeper agents all over Latin America, etc. And that's just an example. What about europpean colonies in the XVIII-early XX centuries: genocide, subjugation, propaganda. Hell, come to think of it, nearly every people on Earth have taken morally questionable actions through their militaries. Auschwitz, Guantanamo, the prisons in Iraq... they're all the same to me. If Nazis make you puke, the US Army should, too.

What I'm trying to say is this: There are no 'good' wars, with sides clashing and dying for a noble cause. This is naïve. Hate, Xenophobia, but most of all, Money are what put men on a warpath. And because of this, war is dirty, cheap, and always hits below the waist.
Let's not be hypocrites. Nazis and SS are just as bad as US prisons today, internment camps in the Vietnam region, detention centers in Latin America, and so on.

Hobby related, I draw no lines. I don't find paintjobs morally questionable, because there's no such thing as good guys and bad guys, only 'I say you say'. If I should question the morality of a paintjob, I'd ask myself why am I endorsing war, first of all. (But I don't though :P)
2 replies · active 740 weeks ago
>Like the US haven't done MUCH MORE than their fair share of torturing, brainwashing, triggering coup d'etats through sleeper agents all over Latin America, etc

Don't know numbers offhand, but I would be surprised if they had. Six million is an awful lot of peoples, and those are only the ones the Nazis SUCCEEDED in killing. Yes, many other countries have done terrible, terrible things throughout their histories; that does not make them morally equivalent to Nazi Germany. The crimes of the U.S. military are over a two century (more or less) time period, whereas the Nazi's were a single decade.

"All evil acts are equal" is not true. A Nazi internment camp was demonstrably worse than a prison in America today. I can't imagine you even comparing the two. Do you think punching someone is just as bad as killing them? Is stealing a single dollar just as bad as stealing a billion dollars? The scale of a crime is relevant as well, which you seem to be ignoring.

All governments and all people do evil, but not in equal amounts. If you simply put it down to "evil is evil, no mater how much or how little," think you're taking a rather childish approach to the world.
willydstyle's avatar

willydstyle · 740 weeks ago

Also, I don't believe I've ever seen a "U.S" themed army, though I'm sure they're out there, but I seem to see all sorts of Nazi themed armies (and not just "German" themed). So Capt's argument is a bit of a straw man. Honestly, I don't really want to see any army directly based on a RL nation or military, especially when there are plenty of in-universe analogs.
Von Lettow-Vorbeck's avatar

Von Lettow-Vorbeck · 740 weeks ago

(I wonder if anyone would be stupid enough to call me a Nazi based on my name were it not for this little bracket ...)

So much for "YTTH without the emo-bitching". Still, I suppose that it's at least mostly contained in the comment section for now.

As for the topic itself, I've gotta say I'm feeling nothing but total apathy here. I understand that Nazi imagery/rape/etc. are a serious issue for a lot of people who shouldn't have had to deal with it. Well, meh. My grandfather shouldn't have been conscripted into the late-war German army and then abused in an American POW camp, but that happened. Japanese Americans should never have undergone what they did during the course of the war. History is not made by lots of congenial people being nice to each other, it is various nationalistic dicks trying to prove that their bright, shiny section of the map is best.

Some people like the symbolism or military ethos of these types. The Wehrmacht inspired the Space Marines and the Imperium in general, the Russian Army (belligerents of a state that was in some ways worse than Hilter') inspired the Imperial Guard. If you've got a problem with the past then that's okay. But you need to accept that your problem is IN the past, unless you want to never get over it. Someday, if you get better, you'll have to be able to accept that some people want to paint aryan flags onto their tiny plastic tanks and get on with your life.

I will agree with the people above who questioned why people play historically themed armies when there are historical wargames ... to an extent. I play Panzergrenadiers in FoW because I like their military history, the image, the style and more importantly my division (the 17th) was named after an ancient German Mercenary of high regard known as 'Götz of the Iron Hand'. I didn't really have an option for Napoleonic miniatures, however, so I built my WFB Dwarfs to be the British Empire with axes, crossbows and general shenanigans.

TL;DR ~ I'll play any army (yes, even an army that's not even unwrapped/everything has 15 inch dicks), don't care either way, history is overrated, I kind of have a creepy thing for Germany but don't have any fondness for the Nazis.
3 replies · active 740 weeks ago
I mostly agree, though I don't believe history is overrated. The past should never be forgotten, as it is the key to the understanding of our times and those to come. Were not for that, I'd give you a thumbs up.
Von Lettow-Vorbeck's avatar

Von Lettow-Vorbeck · 740 weeks ago

That was just a TL;DR thing to summarise my apathy towards the people who fantasise/romanticise certain periods and pretend that their chosen faction was golden pure. If you look at my name and all the drops of somewhat obscure (they're not exactly common knowledge anyway) German/Prussian history then you can probably get a sense that I've studied history to an extent.

Heck, I myself have an army of British Imperial Dwarfs and Panzergrenadiers, so I'm obviously a historical wargamer. My point was just that the Byzantines, Romans, Russians, Germans, English, Americans, French, Portuguese, Spanish, etc. were dicks. People look past that and start overrating them, which I don't care for. This breeds apathy, which oozed out of my post.
Oh I see, my bad. I can see what you mean now. Thumbs up for both posts :)

Thanks for clarifying.
Isaac Garcia's avatar

Isaac Garcia · 740 weeks ago

Regardless of what they did (Which was hideously horrible and shouldnt be repeated ever again, but sadly it has...) You have to agree that from an aesthetic point of view, the germans had great industrial design and the whole iconography of Nazi Germany is very well made. With that said, i beleive that one shouldnt use real life references in 40k, because its the f'ing 41ist millenium, the stories of the horus heresy are LEGENDS to most people, no one remembers the 2d millenium where any real life references might stem from.

So, if you're going to use nazi looking things, because honestly, they look pretty cool and evoke villainous imagery, go for it, but change them so its nazi-looking, and not just "nazi" here's an example: http://www.toys-games-store.com/images/COSPA-Gund...

However, if you want to use the swastika, try to do so in a non-nazi connotation. It is a simple design that has its own merits and can be incorporated, but because it is so iconic of the nazi, one has to go out of one's way to make it not nazi, avoiding black symbol on white with red surroundings is the first thing, after all, if you're making a DIY army, it should be unique, and not evoke too much of existing content, fictional or otherwise. If possible, one could use the sauwastika http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauwastika unless one had a particular reason not to do so.

[facebook connect still not working btw]
1 reply · active 740 weeks ago
Something I am contemplating doing if I keep my Skorne army for Hordes: using the colour symbolism of Nazi Germany (the red, white and black flags, black and silver armour, the single bold symbol), which does have a suitably authoritarian kick to it, without co-opting the exact placement of the colours or any of the actual symbols. I'm going for a similar impact without a direct connotation. Hopefully it'll work.
Pinball Wizard's avatar

Pinball Wizard · 740 weeks ago

This is an intelligent debate but remember we have no right to tell peple how they are allowed to think/act when their thoughts actions do not target anyone else. If someone wants to paint a swastika on his stuff i say let them. Unless he starts babbling on about untermensch and lebensraum.

On a side note the symbol above is just an Iron Cross. That symbol was distinctly German before the Nazis came about. Jus sayin.
2 replies · active 705 weeks ago
pimpdaddyork's avatar

pimpdaddyork · 740 weeks ago

You read my mind, I was going to say that it was just an Iron Cross.
The imperial cross is nearly as old as christianity in europe i dont get how people took that for a Swastika, that takes a whole new level of moron actually.

At the very least is was used in WW1 prior to WW2 so the army might be based on that.
Wow. Didn't expect to see this come up in the main posts. Either way, I'll sum up my points.

While a horrendous tragedy, the events of then and the frame of today are two different things. While tasteless, I don't believe that I have the right to stop you from painting what you want on your models. This might be an American thing, yes, but in my eyes freedom of choice is paramount, here. Your models, you time, your money, your paint, your choice. While I personally don't agree with what is being said from a model painted in such a scheme, I feel more strongly that it is not my choice.

That said, however, there is taking it too far. Once you start effecting other people, then your choices are fully your own. First in this is being a dick; if you are a jerk and using it to push your views on others, or because you know it'll get a rise out of people, then you should stop. People are doing this to have fun, and if people aren't, they you aren't playing the same game they are anymore. Second, you have every right to avoid them if it makes you uncomfortable; I would include in this banning them from the shop, if you are the owner or whatever. They have a choice, but that doesn't mean they are immune to consequences of yanking peoples chains.

In the end, though, I would play against reasonable people who have the theme but aren't really obnoxious or otherwise zealots about it. But, by that same token, I'm generally not playing against obnoxious people anway, no matter the theme, so I suppose it doesn't actually effect my judgment, here.
Use iconography and symbolism from the Bismark/Second Reich era.
1 reply · active 705 weeks ago
the second reich was the holy roman empire (in german heilige römische reich des deutsches nation, holy roman reich of german nation). Its time spanning from the crownign of the germanic chieftain karl der gross (charlamange) to roman emperor until napoleon forced austria to conceed the roman crown to him. The first reich was the original rome lasting from Gaius Octavianus was named Augustus Caesar, until Romulus Augustus was deposed by the gothic chieftain Odacer.
I once thought about making a Night Goblin army where the goblins wore white robes and carried burning crosses for their banners.

However the thought of painting all those Goblins really put me off.

I realise that it'd probably have got a bad reaction in America, but in New Zealand it would just have gotten a laugh.
1 reply · active 740 weeks ago
I'm from Poland, a country through which battle fronts moved through and back during WWII, and I can say that this particular insignia - black cross doesn't give me any semblance to swastica (which is by the way a solar sign from the times immemorial and is still adored in some Indian temples). The only association (and mind it - just association, not identity) is that it is in a white circle on a red flag. You could paint black Skaven triangle in that spot and still there would be that association.

For those saying that nazis used black cross too, I say look closely at their black cross - it's not simple but consists of many lines.

In this case I'm saying those who protest this army scheme are ignorant and/or bigotic.
Tony Sterling's avatar

Tony Sterling · 736 weeks ago

Firstly, I would like to say that, for a "offensive" army, OP's paint jobs are in very good taste. There's no references to war atrocities, and OP doesn't even use the Swastika, as it were.

Secondly, if I saw this army put down on a table, I would crack up, because my space marine army, the Spetsmarines, are Communist themed. Really, OP has done a masterful paint job, army-wide. That being said, if I saw this army and had no context for OP as a person, I would probably be pretty keen on knowing his views on "race." And, indeed, if he was a racist, I'd like to think I'd take it as an opportunity to engage in constructive dialogue.

Thirdly, to be honest, I can't stand it when people get offended by historical themes. The Nazi's existed. The holocaust happened. They're gone now, and it's over. To push it under the rug, never ever talk about it, and pretend it didn't happen is a sure-fire way to repeat it. Should we be offended by references to the native-American genocide? Should we be offended by references to the medieval slaughter of muslims? No. These are things that happened. It is foolish to be offended by reality. So should we be offended that the warhammer "Inquisition" is themed off a bunch of bigots, racists, and murders? Should we be offended that, in warhammer fantasy, Orcs come from a geographic parity of Africa? Because frankly I don't see any difference between the "offensiveness" of OP's army and the well-canonized historical parities in the existing warhammer fluff.

Fourthly, there is no judge on Earth who can objectively call something "offensive" or "proper" or whatever. Perceptions are by their nature subjective. What OP made is beautiful. Even if somebody doesn't think it's neat, at least OP thinks it's cool. How can you say that something someone perceives as rad is wrong? I mean, his army isn't hurting anyone. It's just showing off how cool it is.

Fifthly, the things you do, that's your karma. How people react, that's their karma. If somebody wants to get all fired up over something that doesn't matter, that's their trip. If somebody wants to get all up in your face about it, all you can do it shrug it off. Turn the other cheek.
Aliarzathanil's avatar

Aliarzathanil · 715 weeks ago

Capt, "The thing is, Nazis have been stigmatized because they lost, and because of the support given to the jewish community by the western powers after the war. Let us not forget, there were, and are, very powerful jew people that financially back governments such as the US.

Anyway my point is many people talk smack about the nazi germans, but knowingly ignore the atrocities their governments have committed."

Really man? Jew people? Also, stop it with the cultural relativism. Don't even try to say the Nazis got a bad rap for losing. The U.S. is not Nazi Germany. American internment camps were wrong, but hardly an atrocity and in no way morally equal to death camps.

On the original topic, I find Nazi-themed armies in 40k in poor taste, but I don't think the army in question is really that bad. Most people don't know the difference between a Prussian or WW1 theme and cry Nazi a little too quickly.
The Guest's guest's avatar

The Guest's guest · 714 weeks ago

I hate nazis as much as the next guy, but that isn't a swastika.
1 reply · active 691 weeks ago
He didn't say swastika, he said "Nazi insignia" (which the Iron Cross has, to a large degree, become.)
Rob Jackson's avatar

Rob Jackson · 678 weeks ago

I came late to this thread but I think I have a comment that fits.

The Iron Cross in a white circle on a red field is not a Nazi flag, nor is it a Nazi symbol. The Iron Cross became the highest award in Germany before the turn of the twentieth century and was simply continues by them as an award for valor.

The Nazi's became (not started as) one of the worst governments in human history, although Pol Pot, Joe Stalin, and Idi Amin come to mind as far worse in their chosen slaughter of people. By the way, all of the men I mentioned killed more innocent lives than Germany killed in WWII civilian and soldiers combined. Of the world leaders who are the worst, I would pick Pol Pot as being far worse than any other leader in history.

It is actually hypocrisy to condemn someone's painting for being "too Nazi" when GW based the entire Imperium on the Nazis. The fluff includes stories with features such as death camps for "heretics and mutants". Summary execution for becoming so scared in battle that they run is another trick the Nazi's used to maintain courage in their combat troops. Conscript troops are very much similar to the Volksturm at the end of the war. The uniforms of most of the figs released can be traced to a single army, yet there are 2 (Mordian and Steel Legion) that are based on Nazi uniforms.

Personally, I have a great interest in the Nazi period, not the death camps and such, but the tanks and uniforms and weapons developed to fight the war. Making an imperial guard army look like such without bringing in the philosophy that came with it in real life is a great use of available resources in my opinion. I remember when I first started playing IG I asked many people for ideas of painting my army, including the GW telephone support staff, they all overwhelmingly suggested the Osprey series books on the German Army and the SS as source material for their models.

If I paint a hand flipping you off on the side of my turret, that is in line with what the real world sees, but might offend some players. If you design you troops on real world armies, and can keep you politics out of the game room, paint them as you see fit.

Cool mini or not panorama was well painted and realistic situation, I think it should be viewed without the immorality that it implies since our own troops in the real world have shown some of the same moral flaws.

Daddy's home fig, absolutely offensive. In this case he could have done the child in the bed seeing a ghost and done the clown as a separate mini, thus removing the fangs. Now comes the political bit.... As much as I hate that fig, as an American, Retired Soldier and just a Human, I have to support his right to create and display it. freedom of speech means that I can offend anyone I like so long as I do not incite unlawful behavior in my audience. I could tell you that the President should be shot for his actions, but I can't tell you to shoot the President.

If he had painted a swatstika on his tank, on that flag, it would be Nazi. Many societies before the Nazis used that as a symbol of luck, and I have seen it in current use in Himalayas and South America without the racist conotations. Try to be open to the quality of someone's models as opposed to the content, but if you are concerned about your children seeing such things, perhaps you should talk with your opponents before play and take a gander at his models, it gives you the chance to say "hey do something to cover up that, I don't want my kids seeing it and thinking it's OK.
Rob Jackson's avatar

Rob Jackson · 678 weeks ago

one more comment. The United States government did take part in attempted genocide here in America, take a look at the trail of tears or any other Indian "resettlement" program.

The British did the same in Scotland and Ireland.

We all learned from our lack of morality, can't the Germans be given the same courtesy?

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