
Recently, I dropping into a flaming rant from our favourite author VT2 about what is and what is not acceptable in the hobby. It lead into an interesting thought:
Are there limits to what is acceptable to players when it comes to the hobby?
I apologize in advance if this comes off like it should be on another leading hobby blog, but I feel it is work exploring.
Firstly, 3++ does not support any of the logos that may show up on this page.
Second... I didn't mean this to get as heavy as it did...
So, in your personal experience, what do you find acceptable.
There are some strange things that came out of the conversation with VT2.
For instance, the thought of large phallic objects and breasts on a Slanneshi model was acceptable. Obviously around the younger crowd this would be frowned upon, but the blatent sexualisation of miniatures was deemed fine.
However, for some, the use of the Nazi insignia is just a nono, regardless of the quality of the paintjob, theme, etc
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This is a beautiful model, and if it wasn't adorned with Nazi insignia (and instead, say, the Emporer) would be applauded. However, how do you feel about it? Realistically, the goal of the hobby is to enjoy it in your own way, but possibly one must also consider the feelings of the person on the other side of the table. When you deploy, how do you know how the person opposite you will react to your army? Every army in 40k has a level of "real-world" tie-in... how much is acceptable?
This example is fine for Warhammer 40k, but beyond our corner of the gaming hobby, would it be appropriate in Flames of War?
Where do you draw the line? Is it only sociall acceptable to model your armies as the "winners" in a war?
Is it acceptable to bring real-life events and armies onto your tabletop, regardless?
How do you know if the person opposite's grandfather was killed by an SS officer, Japanese POW camp, British officer or in Hiroshima?
Sethis · 740 weeks ago
Dalinair · 740 weeks ago
Buuurgh · 691 weeks ago
But about the rest...
Keith · 740 weeks ago
Warboss Stalin · 740 weeks ago
VT2 79p · 740 weeks ago
Not just swastikas, but models that look like they were dressed by the SS.
Grovel · 740 weeks ago
Would high quality artwork of Satan, Saddam Hussein, or Colonel Goddafi be as repugnant to you? (genuine curiousity)
wisdom like silence · 740 weeks ago
Messanger of Death · 740 weeks ago
http://www.coolminiornot.com/266249
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=262519&...
Those two links are NOT work/child friendly... especially the last one.
Sepharine · 740 weeks ago
Marshal_Wilhelm 61p · 740 weeks ago
I don't see why someone would want to paint and model such a thing. It's not as if GW stuff is dull and boring that you need to trawl through humanities darkness to get something worth painting.
Extra sad that such skilful artists would bother to stoop to such ugly things.
Unless they were trying to raise awareness about such things. Though I couldn't see such a message from the artists....?
If people can't see there is a difference between toy soldiers and the war it represents, that is fine. I am surprised that the distinction cannot be made though - we are intelligent and reasoning beings after all.
Bro_Lo 82p · 740 weeks ago
Comrade · 740 weeks ago
Which is where the line should be drawn.
Because its not for me to judge what a person believes, feels or thinks. That's entirely his domain. But the moment he starts trying to push an ideology, that's where I draw the line.
Of course, In Australia, I've found that most people don't give a shit. There's always someone ready to throw a wet blanket onto something (The vocal minority, if you will) but apart from that, most war gamers are mature, reasonable people.
It all comes down to a matter of taste, I suppose.
Von · 740 weeks ago
brittlewords 35p · 740 weeks ago
I think the best-case-scenario for this type of tension (similarly to that which Abuse discusses below with hyper-sexualized representations on miniatures) is that it opens the door to discussion about concepts like abstraction, appropriation, exploitation, and commercialism.
"Obliterating" the atrocities committed by the Nazis from the public consciousness seems like a sure-fire way to allow something like that to happen again; however, as Von points out, there's a difference between navigating a contentious and difficult topic and just grabbing onto symbolism without thinking about the ideology that it was used to promote.
For me, the difference between something like playing the Germans in FoW and painting swastikas on Fantasy / Sci-Fi armies is this:
In FoW, you are playing an army for its composition and tactics - the game itself, despite being grounded historically, seems to "strip" much of the history out of the game (and, furthermore, also allows you to create a schism between Germany, a fine country that was run at one point by proponents of a devastating ideology, and the Nazis, who believed in the genocide of those not like themselves - it's a fine line to walk, since we so often associate national identity with the ruling (if not most prevalent) ideology, but it is a line that I believe exists).
In games not based on WWII, you are actively introducing the Nazi ideologies INTO a setting where they don't currently exist in that particular combination. This isn't to say that themes of genocide don't exist in 40k (and, in fact, are part of what makes the story so compelling - even in an "Us Vs. Them" mentality, the "Us" in the form of the Imperium is intentionally pretty unsympathetic); however, the particulars of the horrors committed by the Nazis are either absent, veiled, or complicated to the point where they aren't all wrapped up and promoted by the Imperial eagle. Pushing swastikas into 40k also pushes a unique combination of ideological components ONTO the game, rather than stripping them away.
TL;DR: If you're playing a WWII game with an awareness of what your paint scheme might evoke in others and imply about you (and a willingness to reflect on these issues), then you're probably ok; if you're running around yelling "Nazis are awesome" then you're either Conan O'Brien doing the "INAPPROPRIATE" skit (and even that only went so far as Saddam Hussein), or you're just wrong.
Gx1080 · 740 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 740 weeks ago
That being said, one of the objective markers at my FLGS _is_ a topless woman; everyone is okay with this, which sets a standard of what's okay there. It's all about knowing what the comfort zones of the guy on the other side of the table are, and whether you're willing to cross them for a model.
That's not to say any of those things are in good taste, but, to quote- "Good taste, what a wretched thing!"
SageoftheTimes 77p · 740 weeks ago
Now, the Imperium does horrible things to it's citizens, as well as other cultures, but as far as we understand, 40k isn't real, right? So, yeah. There are ways in which a person can joke about something, and others in which they'd find the same thing creepy as hell. So, yeah, joking about Nazis? Ok. Painting your 40k minis as them? Weird.....
Warboss Stalin · 740 weeks ago
fuklaw 27p · 740 weeks ago
Like many have said before, it's the other person's army, his/her money and time invested.
As far as I care the game its about having fun, and you have fun due to gamer interaction and the odd even in game (like an immobilized predator sooting 1 lascannon at a w serpent which just turbo-boosted into your objective and watch the guy fail his 4+ ssave and the re-roll, costing him the game :D - Priceless)
Anyway point is, except from Germany and Austria(?) IIRC, there's no formal law banning these icons, so game on.
Also, if you don't like the other player army theme, victory will taste much sweeter to you ;)
moug · 740 weeks ago
Follow this logic would people be offended playing against a tallarn desert raider army because we all know Arabs are terrorists right? how about Praetorian guard, we all know they rounded up black people for slaves and killed Americans who wanted independance? Then theres Valhallan guard, wow dont get me started on those russians.
40k lore is derrived from our history in one way or another. Imperiel guard regiments are predominantly drawn from real armies, its all part and parsel of the game. I think for people to flame this amazingly painted army because its based on WW2 germany is wrong. Not all germans killed jews, thats a fact, and there is nothing i have seen in that army which zeros in on that part of WW2.
What happened to the Jewish people was a tragedy but to ignore that by saying no one should be able to have a WW2 germany theme is just wrong.
abusepuppy 121p · 740 weeks ago
There is a fine line between historical interest and the sort of obsessive idealization that sometimes accompanies that sort of thing. In a similar vein, some American Civil War reenactors are cool guys, and others are kinda creepy and LOVE to talk about the grand ol' South, lament the War of Northern Aggression, etc, etc. Those guys, to me at least, come off as liking the era a bit too much and basically pretending that horrible, horrible acts weren't committed in the name of their nation.
That doesn't mean I think they should be banned from doing so, but it affects my opinion of them. You do not have an inaliable right over other people's opinions- the things you do and say have consequences.
Dunge · 705 weeks ago
And in regard to people liking their history to much: in war all sides do horrible things, the north and south both did and the nazis and allies both did.
brittlewords 35p · 740 weeks ago
"Not all germans killed jews" - definitely a valid point, and one which is particularly relevant once again in a Post-9/11 America. By extension, not all Germans were Nazis, which I'm sure we can agree on.
However, the swastika symbol in particular came to be used as a propaganda device (a self-representation, if you will) by the Nazis - inseparable from the ideology they espoused, which included acceptance for racial genocide.
Try as we might, we cannot divorce the signifier (the swastika) from what was signified (atrocities). If you are electing to use the symbol, don't be surprised when it brings with it connotations of all the horrors with which it is associated; and, given the propensity of the qualities of icons to transfer onto the people using them (think back to when Tiger Woods got dumped from the advertising of a bunch of companies and why they might have done that), don't be surprised when people thus take issue with you.
willydstyle · 740 weeks ago
moug · 740 weeks ago
While the Nazi party will always be a sensitive subject it almost seems people are unwilling to openly acknowledge it as part of our history. There will always be a fine line between provocative and disrespectful when it comes to such topics as these yet from the images of the army it is neither. The swastika is used purely for a visual tie in to the theme of the army rather than in an uneccisary confrontational way.
moug · 740 weeks ago
brittlewords 35p · 740 weeks ago
Actually, I do in some cases! I think the "mushroom cloud" remains a tasteless and overused symbol in American culture, and, while absolutely acknowledging that 9/11 was a horrible and devastating moment four our country, I thought the use of "Ground Zero" (often used to denote the point of detonation of nuclear weapons, such as the two we dropped on innocent civilians) got used more as a term to rile up sentiment than to connect that atrocity to those we committed.
Edit: I forgot to include that I thought your question was a good one for any American to ask themselves, about so many things that we so easily condemn in other nations.
CptFornost 44p · 740 weeks ago
Anyway my point is many people talk smack about the nazi germans, but knowingly ignore the atrocities their governments have committed.
abusepuppy 121p · 740 weeks ago
CptFornost 44p · 740 weeks ago
Stalin did his own Purges too, but the Nazis are far more popular. I insist, Nazis are over-stigmatized.
moug · 740 weeks ago
willydstyle · 740 weeks ago
moug · 740 weeks ago
Nazis=BAD! WW2 Germany =/ =Nazis
To focus on the holocaust when talking about the WW2 German army is a bias almost everyone inherits from high school history. I think people need to take a step back acknowledge the gravity of these events yet not take a blindly ignorant view of history. The replies to my original post have been well thought out yet they will inherintly all have a bias and a point of view, i acknowledge i have a different way of looking at this than other people hence i have a bias. Were this discussion has been more academic in style as far as putting our points forward and allowing others to evaluat them, your post has more of a tone along the lines of a 16 year old who just watches saving privat rhyan and thinks that if he uses a loud voice people will think your right.
I suggest you open your mind to other thoughts and re-read the posts before posting a bastedized summery of the discussion
willydstyle · 740 weeks ago
moug · 740 weeks ago
A more recent example of this would be post 9/11 America. The fear caused by such a tragedy was foccused and harnessed by the George busy government to start 2 wars. People were confussed and afraid after what happened, they were litteraly in the streets demanding blood for what had happened. I hope no one takes this example as me calling George Bush the next Hitler or as America bashing, Its only ment to show how a government can controll the emotions of the people after a tragic event. Think of it this way, if 9/11 hadn't happened do you think we would be at war in Afganistan or Iraq?
willydstyle · 740 weeks ago
moug · 740 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 740 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 740 weeks ago
Likewise, the failures of morality and law following Pearl Harbor and 9/11 were each permitted by the American people (or at least enough of them) at the time. If the Bush administration had rounded up five million Muslims and put them to death, then yeah, I'm pretty sure that the republican symbology would be treated the same way as Nazi symbolism i now.
Causes of a tragedy are not excuses for the behavior. I can understand what caused those events, but it doesn't make any of them right. Some Germans, and some Americans, fought against what happened in their countries, certainly, and those people are to be commended. neither Germany nor America as a whole should be villified for what happened. The German flag is NOT held as a symbol of racism, the _Nazi_ flag is.
Dunge · 705 weeks ago
willydstyle · 740 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 740 weeks ago
sinsynn 106p · 740 weeks ago
Nazis ALWAYS make for great bad guys in movies and video games, don't they?
I can't see some rascist skinhead type painting a miniature army to glamorize the 'Nazi Agenda,' or whatever. I just don't think a gamer would do it for that reason.
The whole 'politically correct' thing is outta hand, I think, if someone is going to be 'offended' over imagery such as this, on toy tanks, no less.
Yeah, let's supress everything that may potentially offend anyone. *sigh* Let's not get started down THAT road, please.
I'm not gonna ask if 'minorities are properly represented in 40k,' cuz that's next.
VT2 79p · 740 weeks ago
Mecha-hitler, overseer Olga, the Shewolf of the SS...
There's a difference between Hitler yelling "SWINEHUNDT!" from aboard his minigun-armed mechasuit, and painting swastikas on your dreadnoughts.
Let's not forget that, in many parts of the world, anything related to the nazis and their symbols is a crime.
abusepuppy 121p · 740 weeks ago
You have a much higher opinion of humanity than me. Racist assholes come in all shapes and sizes, including gamer size (XXXL, for reference.)
40K, for all its GRIMDARK, isn't really a serious setting. It has men with chainsaw swords cutting down infinite hordes of fungous men. Ignoring the real effects of planetary genocide that happens so regularly in the universe is sort of part and parcel.
I find it odd that you consider getting offended over a direct reference to one of the most heinous crimes against humanity "political correctness." I mean, I'm not really offended, but I'm not really offended by anything but stupidity and small-mindedness. I think, assuming this is a 40K model and not FoW, it's probably done in poor taste, but that's the creator's decision. If I tell dead baby jokes, there are also some people who consider that poor taste and it reflects on me. Choosing to like or dislike, associate or not associate is not "censorship" or "political correctness," it's just me exercising my right to choose what I believe.
Von · 740 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 740 weeks ago
Goose · 740 weeks ago
This doesn't mean that it always happens this way, but I've seen a trend to this- of course, a lot of this can come from artists who chose to display their talents and/or use their skills in a strange way, like the eldar rape scene shown above (or this beautifully sculpted tentacled rhino with a... sister of battle I saw once- made by an a fore mentioned creepy guy. D :) It seems that people who create these types of things are creating pretty much a massive, physical manifestation of some strange Freudian hangup.
Regarding the Nazi painting, I don't think it is some sort of way that closeted racists get their jollies, but the product of someone enamored with either a romanticized version of the nazi background, or that they think the nazi symbolism is just cool looking. I'd gladly play against both armies (if the guy is fun to play against) even if what they did was a bit, in my opinion, tasteless.
All in all, it really depends on the person, just like when it comes to racial/gender/homosexuality jokes- you can usually tell when a person is just kidding, or when they actually have issues regarding what they are talking about.
That said, I did see a pretty deplorable guy who once had the 'spear chukka' crew of his orcs painted black in an other wise standard army. Real classy dude.
Rogue_Pilot_40k 28p · 740 weeks ago
But then again the whole culture of the Imperium is one of constant discrimantion like "Abhor the Witch" and "Beware the Alien, Mutant and Heretic", Its the same as a planet, just on a lager scale.
It is their army which has their time and money invested.
Bro_Lo 82p · 740 weeks ago
With regards to MoD's links and most things like this, I ask myself would I be happy to look upon such things if I or somebody close to me had been on the receiving end of some of these atrocities. My answer would be no. It's not that these things should be hidden away, but i disagree with them being cartoonised.
wisdom like silence · 740 weeks ago
Exactly. 40K is a fictional setting. Putting Nazis in your fictional setting is clearly fetishistic because there is no context for their existence. It just shows you like Nazis. Playing Nazis in FoW is fine because FoW provides a historical context for Nazi Germany.
willydstyle · 740 weeks ago
@FreakyGiraffe · 740 weeks ago
This anti-nazism in me is not confined to 40k. Would people be happy using a character in their Army named after a genocidal maniac ie Commander Bin Laden? WHFB had a character in the Vampire Counts Army book ages ago called Heinrich Himmler. The mere anger that his name brings up in my own head after I was urged to read up on his atrocities were sufficient for me to actually have sold off my budding Vampire Counts army and moved to 40K.
All this in perspective, people objectifying women with phallic and bosom-ful Slaanesh models and the like are merely immature and no cause for concern in my mind. I can normally assume the 'gratification status' of individuals by looking at their armies with overtly sexualised Sisters and Daemons players being for the most part neck-bearded idiots. Boobs are fine in moderation (DE wyches and the like if not customised), and the piece linked by MoD represents how it can get out of hand.
Sorry for the WoT, and for being an opinionated twart.
Width
Grovel · 740 weeks ago
Getting upset by something that happened decades before you were born shows weak character, in my opinion. Hell, when aboriginal people see the Australian flag do they have a bitch and moan about it? None I've ever come across have, and they suffered plenty at the hands of the English.
abusepuppy 121p · 740 weeks ago
(I have actually seen the Guardsman with a Demolition Charge modeled as a "terrorist," btw. It's every bit as classy as you'd expect.)
Grovel · 740 weeks ago
Hell, Lukas The Trickster is practically a terrorist, probably shouldn't use him in games against Americans in case it makes them faint.
abusepuppy 121p · 740 weeks ago
I'm sure as (gonna go out on a limb with a guess here) a white middle class Westerner it's pretty easy to say "Man, get over it!" because the worst persecution you've ever endured is when the mall security guard told you you had to leave J.C. Penny because you were being too loud, but for some people of the world it actually is a real issue.
Grovel 61p · 740 weeks ago
My point is that it's not Nazi Germany doing the persecuting any more, and it's extremely unlikely that anyone involved in the hobby was on the receiving end of said persecution. Whether it happened to your grand father at the hands of Nazi's or your great-great-great grandfather at the hands of Vikings is irrelevant, I believe.
Granted the viking example is quite a long way back, but horrendous things have been done by all cultures over the world at one point or another, if everybody got so hung up on them all as they had with the Nazi's the world would end up like Israel is today.
I understand a grudge, or hatred due to acts commited - but people take it too far with things like how a toy has been painted. If more people formed their opinions based on facts rather than emotion the world would be a simpler place.
I appreciate your perspective, but disagree with you.
Von · 740 weeks ago
Badger · 740 weeks ago
Kirby 118p · 740 weeks ago
Remember also the plain old swastika isn't Nazi in origin but rather religious. Obviously when you combine it with the German color scheme, SS icongraphy, etc. it's obviously a Nazi reference but I've seen quite a few people get antsy over just plain old swastikas when it was a reference to a different period of time.
wisdom like silence · 738 weeks ago
Dunge · 705 weeks ago
CptFornost 44p · 740 weeks ago
What I'm trying to say is this: There are no 'good' wars, with sides clashing and dying for a noble cause. This is naïve. Hate, Xenophobia, but most of all, Money are what put men on a warpath. And because of this, war is dirty, cheap, and always hits below the waist.
Let's not be hypocrites. Nazis and SS are just as bad as US prisons today, internment camps in the Vietnam region, detention centers in Latin America, and so on.
Hobby related, I draw no lines. I don't find paintjobs morally questionable, because there's no such thing as good guys and bad guys, only 'I say you say'. If I should question the morality of a paintjob, I'd ask myself why am I endorsing war, first of all. (But I don't though :P)
abusepuppy 121p · 740 weeks ago
Don't know numbers offhand, but I would be surprised if they had. Six million is an awful lot of peoples, and those are only the ones the Nazis SUCCEEDED in killing. Yes, many other countries have done terrible, terrible things throughout their histories; that does not make them morally equivalent to Nazi Germany. The crimes of the U.S. military are over a two century (more or less) time period, whereas the Nazi's were a single decade.
"All evil acts are equal" is not true. A Nazi internment camp was demonstrably worse than a prison in America today. I can't imagine you even comparing the two. Do you think punching someone is just as bad as killing them? Is stealing a single dollar just as bad as stealing a billion dollars? The scale of a crime is relevant as well, which you seem to be ignoring.
All governments and all people do evil, but not in equal amounts. If you simply put it down to "evil is evil, no mater how much or how little," think you're taking a rather childish approach to the world.
willydstyle · 740 weeks ago
Von Lettow-Vorbeck · 740 weeks ago
So much for "YTTH without the emo-bitching". Still, I suppose that it's at least mostly contained in the comment section for now.
As for the topic itself, I've gotta say I'm feeling nothing but total apathy here. I understand that Nazi imagery/rape/etc. are a serious issue for a lot of people who shouldn't have had to deal with it. Well, meh. My grandfather shouldn't have been conscripted into the late-war German army and then abused in an American POW camp, but that happened. Japanese Americans should never have undergone what they did during the course of the war. History is not made by lots of congenial people being nice to each other, it is various nationalistic dicks trying to prove that their bright, shiny section of the map is best.
Some people like the symbolism or military ethos of these types. The Wehrmacht inspired the Space Marines and the Imperium in general, the Russian Army (belligerents of a state that was in some ways worse than Hilter') inspired the Imperial Guard. If you've got a problem with the past then that's okay. But you need to accept that your problem is IN the past, unless you want to never get over it. Someday, if you get better, you'll have to be able to accept that some people want to paint aryan flags onto their tiny plastic tanks and get on with your life.
I will agree with the people above who questioned why people play historically themed armies when there are historical wargames ... to an extent. I play Panzergrenadiers in FoW because I like their military history, the image, the style and more importantly my division (the 17th) was named after an ancient German Mercenary of high regard known as 'Götz of the Iron Hand'. I didn't really have an option for Napoleonic miniatures, however, so I built my WFB Dwarfs to be the British Empire with axes, crossbows and general shenanigans.
TL;DR ~ I'll play any army (yes, even an army that's not even unwrapped/everything has 15 inch dicks), don't care either way, history is overrated, I kind of have a creepy thing for Germany but don't have any fondness for the Nazis.
CptFornost 44p · 740 weeks ago
Von Lettow-Vorbeck · 740 weeks ago
Heck, I myself have an army of British Imperial Dwarfs and Panzergrenadiers, so I'm obviously a historical wargamer. My point was just that the Byzantines, Romans, Russians, Germans, English, Americans, French, Portuguese, Spanish, etc. were dicks. People look past that and start overrating them, which I don't care for. This breeds apathy, which oozed out of my post.
CptFornost 44p · 740 weeks ago
Thanks for clarifying.
Isaac Garcia · 740 weeks ago
So, if you're going to use nazi looking things, because honestly, they look pretty cool and evoke villainous imagery, go for it, but change them so its nazi-looking, and not just "nazi" here's an example: http://www.toys-games-store.com/images/COSPA-Gund...
However, if you want to use the swastika, try to do so in a non-nazi connotation. It is a simple design that has its own merits and can be incorporated, but because it is so iconic of the nazi, one has to go out of one's way to make it not nazi, avoiding black symbol on white with red surroundings is the first thing, after all, if you're making a DIY army, it should be unique, and not evoke too much of existing content, fictional or otherwise. If possible, one could use the sauwastika http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauwastika unless one had a particular reason not to do so.
[facebook connect still not working btw]
Von · 740 weeks ago
@SackOfOwls · 740 weeks ago
I won't tell you you can't do it. You have every right to be a tasteless ass hole. Just as I have every right to call you out on it.
Pinball Wizard · 740 weeks ago
On a side note the symbol above is just an Iron Cross. That symbol was distinctly German before the Nazis came about. Jus sayin.
pimpdaddyork · 740 weeks ago
Dungen · 705 weeks ago
At the very least is was used in WW1 prior to WW2 so the army might be based on that.
artemi7 78p · 740 weeks ago
While a horrendous tragedy, the events of then and the frame of today are two different things. While tasteless, I don't believe that I have the right to stop you from painting what you want on your models. This might be an American thing, yes, but in my eyes freedom of choice is paramount, here. Your models, you time, your money, your paint, your choice. While I personally don't agree with what is being said from a model painted in such a scheme, I feel more strongly that it is not my choice.
That said, however, there is taking it too far. Once you start effecting other people, then your choices are fully your own. First in this is being a dick; if you are a jerk and using it to push your views on others, or because you know it'll get a rise out of people, then you should stop. People are doing this to have fun, and if people aren't, they you aren't playing the same game they are anymore. Second, you have every right to avoid them if it makes you uncomfortable; I would include in this banning them from the shop, if you are the owner or whatever. They have a choice, but that doesn't mean they are immune to consequences of yanking peoples chains.
In the end, though, I would play against reasonable people who have the theme but aren't really obnoxious or otherwise zealots about it. But, by that same token, I'm generally not playing against obnoxious people anway, no matter the theme, so I suppose it doesn't actually effect my judgment, here.
Jason · 740 weeks ago
Dungen · 705 weeks ago
Jason · 740 weeks ago
However the thought of painting all those Goblins really put me off.
I realise that it'd probably have got a bad reaction in America, but in New Zealand it would just have gotten a laugh.
@corianasix · 740 weeks ago
@corianasix · 740 weeks ago
As for offending other people, if you make an army like this, you know people will ask you about it, so just remember it's a sensitive subject, be decent about it, and reasonable people should have no problem with it.
lehcyfer 50p · 738 weeks ago
For those saying that nazis used black cross too, I say look closely at their black cross - it's not simple but consists of many lines.
In this case I'm saying those who protest this army scheme are ignorant and/or bigotic.
Tony Sterling · 736 weeks ago
Secondly, if I saw this army put down on a table, I would crack up, because my space marine army, the Spetsmarines, are Communist themed. Really, OP has done a masterful paint job, army-wide. That being said, if I saw this army and had no context for OP as a person, I would probably be pretty keen on knowing his views on "race." And, indeed, if he was a racist, I'd like to think I'd take it as an opportunity to engage in constructive dialogue.
Thirdly, to be honest, I can't stand it when people get offended by historical themes. The Nazi's existed. The holocaust happened. They're gone now, and it's over. To push it under the rug, never ever talk about it, and pretend it didn't happen is a sure-fire way to repeat it. Should we be offended by references to the native-American genocide? Should we be offended by references to the medieval slaughter of muslims? No. These are things that happened. It is foolish to be offended by reality. So should we be offended that the warhammer "Inquisition" is themed off a bunch of bigots, racists, and murders? Should we be offended that, in warhammer fantasy, Orcs come from a geographic parity of Africa? Because frankly I don't see any difference between the "offensiveness" of OP's army and the well-canonized historical parities in the existing warhammer fluff.
Fourthly, there is no judge on Earth who can objectively call something "offensive" or "proper" or whatever. Perceptions are by their nature subjective. What OP made is beautiful. Even if somebody doesn't think it's neat, at least OP thinks it's cool. How can you say that something someone perceives as rad is wrong? I mean, his army isn't hurting anyone. It's just showing off how cool it is.
Fifthly, the things you do, that's your karma. How people react, that's their karma. If somebody wants to get all fired up over something that doesn't matter, that's their trip. If somebody wants to get all up in your face about it, all you can do it shrug it off. Turn the other cheek.
Aliarzathanil · 715 weeks ago
Anyway my point is many people talk smack about the nazi germans, but knowingly ignore the atrocities their governments have committed."
Really man? Jew people? Also, stop it with the cultural relativism. Don't even try to say the Nazis got a bad rap for losing. The U.S. is not Nazi Germany. American internment camps were wrong, but hardly an atrocity and in no way morally equal to death camps.
On the original topic, I find Nazi-themed armies in 40k in poor taste, but I don't think the army in question is really that bad. Most people don't know the difference between a Prussian or WW1 theme and cry Nazi a little too quickly.
The Guest's guest · 714 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 691 weeks ago
Rob Jackson · 678 weeks ago
The Iron Cross in a white circle on a red field is not a Nazi flag, nor is it a Nazi symbol. The Iron Cross became the highest award in Germany before the turn of the twentieth century and was simply continues by them as an award for valor.
The Nazi's became (not started as) one of the worst governments in human history, although Pol Pot, Joe Stalin, and Idi Amin come to mind as far worse in their chosen slaughter of people. By the way, all of the men I mentioned killed more innocent lives than Germany killed in WWII civilian and soldiers combined. Of the world leaders who are the worst, I would pick Pol Pot as being far worse than any other leader in history.
It is actually hypocrisy to condemn someone's painting for being "too Nazi" when GW based the entire Imperium on the Nazis. The fluff includes stories with features such as death camps for "heretics and mutants". Summary execution for becoming so scared in battle that they run is another trick the Nazi's used to maintain courage in their combat troops. Conscript troops are very much similar to the Volksturm at the end of the war. The uniforms of most of the figs released can be traced to a single army, yet there are 2 (Mordian and Steel Legion) that are based on Nazi uniforms.
Personally, I have a great interest in the Nazi period, not the death camps and such, but the tanks and uniforms and weapons developed to fight the war. Making an imperial guard army look like such without bringing in the philosophy that came with it in real life is a great use of available resources in my opinion. I remember when I first started playing IG I asked many people for ideas of painting my army, including the GW telephone support staff, they all overwhelmingly suggested the Osprey series books on the German Army and the SS as source material for their models.
If I paint a hand flipping you off on the side of my turret, that is in line with what the real world sees, but might offend some players. If you design you troops on real world armies, and can keep you politics out of the game room, paint them as you see fit.
Cool mini or not panorama was well painted and realistic situation, I think it should be viewed without the immorality that it implies since our own troops in the real world have shown some of the same moral flaws.
Daddy's home fig, absolutely offensive. In this case he could have done the child in the bed seeing a ghost and done the clown as a separate mini, thus removing the fangs. Now comes the political bit.... As much as I hate that fig, as an American, Retired Soldier and just a Human, I have to support his right to create and display it. freedom of speech means that I can offend anyone I like so long as I do not incite unlawful behavior in my audience. I could tell you that the President should be shot for his actions, but I can't tell you to shoot the President.
If he had painted a swatstika on his tank, on that flag, it would be Nazi. Many societies before the Nazis used that as a symbol of luck, and I have seen it in current use in Himalayas and South America without the racist conotations. Try to be open to the quality of someone's models as opposed to the content, but if you are concerned about your children seeing such things, perhaps you should talk with your opponents before play and take a gander at his models, it gives you the chance to say "hey do something to cover up that, I don't want my kids seeing it and thinking it's OK.
Rob Jackson · 678 weeks ago
The British did the same in Scotland and Ireland.
We all learned from our lack of morality, can't the Germans be given the same courtesy?