Foreword:This is basically me typing up my thought process since I got the Dark Eldar book out in front of me, had a good read through, and decided to make a list. Now, this has a few little tangents and a fair few personal thoughts, so just remember what this is, a look into how I build a list, rather than a tactics article. You may be asking why I put it up here? Because I think the list's alright, and I want help, of course! (:
I've always loved Skimmers, and the Dark Eldar ones are absolutely beautiful. However, I'm a competitive WAAC ******** so I have to make the army good. Looking at Dark Eldar, they're written by Phil Kelly, who knows his way around an Eldar army, yeah. Doesn't he!
V-Off Topic-V
Erm, does he? Could've fooled me. Looking at the book, and the commentary in it, it seems he's one of these people who thinks Eldar are some army that require an absolute tactical genius to play correctly, and anyone else wont be able to do it. That's probably because you've made them sub par, and it would indeed require an absolute tactical genius to make it work correctly. Gah, it just annoys me that they've made them this "elite" army that can't afford to take losses, and given them almost no way to mitigate them. Also, deciding that 18" is a good threat range for an army of T3 5+ or AV10 open topped units is not good. In addition, they pay for stats they're barely going to use. How often are Warriors really going to NEED WS4 and I5. At least, they should not be paying full points for them. And what the hell is with the costing on their AP2 weaponry? Oh, Kelly didn't get the memo that 3+4E were over. Fuck.
^-Off Topic-^
So, looking at the DE army and trying to make it work for me, ok. Well, I had a look through the various unit choices, and, if you don't mind, I'll do my own little mini review. If I didn't mention a unit, well, I'm sure you can work out why.
*Should note, these opinions are v. much from the perspective of running a particular style of list. MSU mech that deploys on the table, and brings an assault counterpunch. Some units listed (or not) may/do have uses in other builds, and, as with me and GKSS, opinions change (:*
SCs: Get out my book, except Sliscus and Vect, you two might have a use.
Archons: Yes in games of 2500, otherwise no. Mostly because of the court, make of that what you will.
Haemonculi: Yes, you bring wracks, are cheap, and the shattershard could be pretty cool.
Incubi, Grotesques, Harlies and Bloodbrides: You get better, more effective assault elsewhere in the book.
Trueborn: Cheap lances. Fragile and overcosted infantry. Well, these are getting minmaxed.
Warriors: 9pts?! NINE!? 7 or 8 maybe. But jesus hell, not 9. And the cost of their weaponry!? Jesus, imo these guys are only really good if you really want a backfield lance, or are deep striking them down.
Wyches: No. "These guys can hold up units in melee for ages, and can really be a potent assault threat. To that I say "learn to play against wyches", and "to what, guard?". Ugh.
Wracks: These will have to do. At least they're cheap and "survivable."
Scourges and Reavers: Heat lances are nice, sadly this is where beastmasters are.
Beastmasters: "Yes."
 |
| THIS! Is a Ravager. |
Cronos: Is not a Ravager
Razorwing: Is not a Ravager
Creed: Is inside a Ravager, wait, this must....
Voidraven: Is not a Ravager (Ok, the 2 fliers aren't "bad" but you need to build for them, and I'd probably only really advise them at 2500)
Ravager: Ok, 105pts? Ok, you're not a Vendetta. You're the ugly, pimply ginger redhead stepsister of a Vendetta. You'll have to do.
Ok, so now that that's out the way, lets make a list out of it.
The first thing I thought is "the thing I love about DE is the skimmers, lets have some of those." This necessitates units, sadly, so, lets see what I can cook up.
Well, I need an HQ, get on board Haemy. Then I'll take 3 Ravagers. Then, for raiders, I'll take 3x3 Trueborn with 2 lances, in raiders. Then I need some kind of troop I guess. Well, as I don't rate warriors that start on the board, I guess it's 18 wracks in raiders. 1343. Hrm. Well, I'll throw in some beasts. Seeing as I don't have enough for 3x8 Razor flocks, guess we're doing 6. That costs a grand total of 198, if we run 4 Beastmasters, our 6 Razorwings, and then 5 Khymerae. Awesome, lets plug in 3 of those.
1937. Ok, now then, lets see. Looking at the list, I want Tank Shock. Why? Well, ask Mechdar. Tank shocking is awesome with skimmers. So, lets get cracking. We'll have shock prows on all our troop raiders. 1967. Then, we'll have Flickerfields on the 3 Trueborn raiders. Why? Because they're gonna be empty, and I'm probably goign to have to use them to give cover at some point.
1997. Still not happy with this. I really want to try Torment Grenade Launchers on my raiders. I'll see how it tests, if I don't like it, I'll drop them. So we'll drop a Khymerae, and get 2 Torment Grenade Launchers and another Shock Prow. If the nade launchers test well, it'll be 3 TGLaunchers. If not, I may put in the Khymerae, or get more prows, or something. Maybe even drop a raider and get more guys, I dunno, testing awaits.
So, the final list? Here you go:
Haemonculus
50
Elites
3 Trueborn
2 Dark Lances
Raider
Flickerfield
156
3 Trueborn
2 Dark Lances
Raider
Flickerfield
156
3 Trueborn
2 Dark Lances
Raider
Flickerfield
Shock Prow
161
Troops
3 Wracks
Raider
Shock Prow
Torment Grenade Launchers
100
3 Wracks
Raider
Shock Prow
Torment Grenade Launchers
100
3 Wracks
Raider
Shock Prow
95
3 Wracks
Raider
Shock Prow
95
3 Wracks
Raider
Shock Prow
95
3 Wracks
Raider
Shock Prow
95
Fast Attack
4 Beastmasters
4 Khymerae
6 Razorwing Flocks
186
4 Beastmasters
5 Khymerae
6 Razorwing Flocks
198
4 Beastmasters
5 Khymerae
6 Razorwing Flocks
198
Heavy Support
Ravager
105
Ravager
105
Ravager
105
What do we think?
-Hope you guys enjoyed reading this (:
Logging you in...
mikhailtrotsky 8p · 731 weeks ago
SageoftheTimes 77p · 731 weeks ago
Archnomad 70p · 731 weeks ago
Sure, but then I'm bringing anti infantry in elites and would need to bring scourges.
All about balance, yeah? Personally I believe beasts are one of the best units in the book, so I built around that.
mizzrym · 731 weeks ago
Archy · 731 weeks ago
Malkov · 731 weeks ago
General Smooth · 731 weeks ago
Now as you might expect with summarised streams of thought they can lack a balance brought by reflection. But I believe ........Deep breath mmmm haaaaaaa...... ok..... there are NO bad units in the DE codex.
The value of one unit or the other is dictated by your playstyle and list synergy. To dismiss a unit like Incubi with a wave of your hand as less effective is rather a simplistic argument. They are ws5 I5 st4 attacks and each attack is a power weapon also they have 3+ save. You don't need many in an attack. Yes they need a paper airplane to get there but that's target saturation and a basic DE tennant though DE can do tough to kill builds too if you want (read archon's court,grotesques,wracks,talos).
Still the point of the articel (i think) was a look through your eyes as you build a list and not a formal analysis of the unit involved so yes a good article I just find myself itching to pick up on comments in it.... must.....resist.......the.......urge...oh too late I just did above. Oh well!
Archy · 731 weeks ago
GOOSE · 731 weeks ago
There is also the fact that incubi ARE really elite, and honestly don't put out that much for their point cost- they are good against 'nilla marines and assault marines- hordes eat them up (hell, the generic IG blobsquad will wreck their face), they rely on a (very) fragile transport to get them near their target, and a single independent character forces choice between swinging into the unit their aiming at or the character(s), and finally, they need to get grenades from another source.
OTOH, in exchange for a lack of rending, 190-something worth of points nets you a forty wound unit that throws out ridiculous amounts of high I attacks, many rending, provides cover to your entire army (including vehicles!) and provides a very nice counter-charge unit that isn't reliant on a flimsy transport, which is very important for the Deldar army. Every time you fail a save on an incubi unit, their effectiveness goes down by a ton- even one or two wounds will make the unit useless (because I'm assuming you aren't dumb and making them a 220pt 10 manT3 unit). A final grievance is that they have an extremely narrow range of useful abilities to add to your army.
I don't like making cross-comparatives between armies, but look at the Gray night purifiers- for 26pts a pop, you get a T4 3+ dude that can buff his ST to 5, has insanely effective anti-horde power (that also lol-rapes wyches) and has 2 initiative six(!) attacks, and don't compete against a far more important unit in the elites slot (true born). You COULD argue that they have difficulties getting a charge off against something like Deldar, but so what? I'm happy drowning people in ST5 stormbolter shots/Psycannons every day.
Malkov · 731 weeks ago
Malkov · 731 weeks ago
GOOSE · 731 weeks ago
Cheap isn't really the word I'd use for deldar skimmers as well. 70pts with a relatively common upgrade? The 5 incubi with a flickered raider cost 180- Five Purifiers w/ halbreds in a ST6, twinlinked razorback that ignores stunned and shaken is 180. Which is better when facing hordes? Ranged threats? Elites? Themselves?
Also, in a mirror match, the charge wouldn't matter- Incubi have no (appreciable) shooting, init5 and T3- If they ever charge a paladin- the type of elite unit they are supposed to be great against- they evaporate. Hell, in all my play-tests with them, even lowly, basic power-weapons are frightening- How many dedicated close combat units have shied away from a unit with two/three basic powerweapons?
I don't think the Deldar codex is bad, per se, but it is too dependent on variables- such as terrain- to be truely competitive. In a perfect world with perfect tournaments, this wouldn't be an issue, but alas, face the wrath of f a gunline guard/ wolf/ and soon to be midfield gray knights on an empty playing field, and try to win consistently.
Archnomad 70p · 731 weeks ago
General Smooth · 731 weeks ago
Will the list be effective. Yes to a point. Each unit has a clear role and just need proper play to go do it. Good stuff. Do I like it I'm afraid not but I enjoyed the article for what it was an insight to how you (a good player by all accounts) build lists. And as already stated it will be an effective list... to a point. You're also right I don't think that dark eldar lists like this will be consistently competitive at the top table of tournaments.
The list lacks the potential for the tricksies that make dark eldar really good. e.g. Wychies assault powerfist and incubi hit the rest of the squad, webway portal funniness, creating your own cover without exposing anything (harlequins veil of tears anyone) as a snippet of examples. But that's not simple, could go wrong, takes practice not for a WAAC player who flits to the Dark Eldar codex. That's ok, for those people you can play marines.
Now before I get a hail of reposts. I'm not saying YOU flitted to the dark eldar codex (though maybe you have). Just two cents
Oh I haven't studied the GK codex yet so ignored those comparisons.
Ahrimaneus 23p · 731 weeks ago
I'll keep letting my Incubi rape and pillage at will thank you.
Archy · 731 weeks ago
Dave · 731 weeks ago
How about 8 point guardians with ws & bs 3 and ini 4 that carry half a stormbolter to battle? Thats overcosted! They have their moveable heavy weapons (which are more than dark lances and less effective) and their warlock going for them but thats about it.
The guardians need a major fix or points drop when the next eldar codex comes round, thats all I am saying.
As for your list, no offence but it is the same as every other spam list on the web. I know you said you are a WAAC player through and through, but could you not be at least slightly original?
soylent · 731 weeks ago
soylent · 731 weeks ago
Archy · 731 weeks ago
2) I explained that the article would be my train of thought as I leafed through the DE book. It's got a bolded Foreword and everything.
GOOSE · 731 weeks ago
It's even better that their vehicles have a 10 man capacity, so if you wanted to give them a retinue of the cheapest troop unit (warriors) the loose access to a heavy weapon.
Also, why oh why weren't warriors allowed a second special weapon when at 10?
Malkov · 731 weeks ago
Sure, Wracks are slightly more survivable than T3rs... but that doesn't help much when they're all 3-man and your entire Troop section has 0 offence.
3 large Beastmaster units is kinda crazy... what happens when you fight another fast army? Run around and die? Do you really need infantry to be THAT dead?
Overall I think you've spread too much of your AT fire onto single-shot Raiders while only 6 squishy units carry the actual threats to Tanks.
Malkov · 731 weeks ago
Archnomad 70p · 731 weeks ago
A fair bit more survivable to the stuff I'm worried about. Entire troops section has 0 offense? What about those there raiders? They have Dark Lances and Tank Shock, oh my. I'm paying less than 10% of my pts for those wracks. 3 model units are not hard to hide either.
What about BMs and a fast army? Not sure why they'd run around and die, rather than kill stuff, but sure. And they can threaten more than infantry, as well as screen.
Archnomad 70p · 731 weeks ago
Also, how is spreading anti tank bad? It's not, it's efficient. It means I can dedicate the minimum amount of firepower to a unit until it's neutered/dead.
KOFMS · 731 weeks ago
widthofacircle 36p · 731 weeks ago
I can comprehend the way that you are going for a minimal HQ, that stuff is good - also he can ride anywhere pretty much, giving away a pain token like a lollipop to the guys/shamblers that asked him nicely- I would give him a licky gun though (continuing with the lollipop thing there). Unlocking wracks as troops is also a very happy prospect, their added survivability is brilliant, however I'd remove one squad and beef the others up a little:
A: potentially making the wrack squads a threat with liquefier guns and a larger threat in CC - ffs a lucky roll could seriously screw up a tac squad - you've got 1/2 a chance to negate their armour saves :) .
B: Loosing another couple of killpoints (I know this is a given but your list *does* have a lot... like 20+ lol c.f. my 15 with mechdar another list notorious for bleeding KPs...)
Additionally, I prefer my trueborn units with blasters zipping up and harassing the crap out of stuff rather than sitting in backfield with a big 'shoot me' sign on their heads, it gives the transport + occupants the ability to remove chunks of the board at a time, not just chipping away at stuff. People don't like backfield lances one bit. Your reliance on ravagers is understandable though - in my lists I *have* built with razorwings in mind at 1.5K where duality is very important, again attaining this purpose with cannons/ a few missiles.
One problem I have with the flyers is that people are inclined to fill them up with as many shiny missiles as possible, resulting in 180pt+ fragile motherfuckers with flickers - (Now that's a big green neon shoot me sign). A reason for my dislike of the voidraven in principle, after you fire the mine, what the fuck is it going to do other than take hopeful shots at tanks?
Finally, I feel that you are relying IMO too heavily on CC here, the beastmasters'll shred most stuff until they hit a rock, but at 2K, but do you really need three nasty tarpits - I'd prefer some jetbikes for slicing and dicing infantry to pieces esp. if you give them a heat lance. A unit of six with two heat lances *will* be targeted by something as a distraction - they will hurt you in some way, esp after turboboosting 36". protecting your raiders and ravagers from attention (in this case, we're giving them the big neon sign).
Wow, just read that through - not very coherent, I just hope you got at least a little of my message....
Archnomad 70p · 731 weeks ago
"*Should note, these opinions are v. much from the perspective of running a particular style of list. MSU mech that deploys on the table, and brings an assault counterpunch. Some units listed (or not) may/do have uses in other builds, and, as with me and GKSS, opinions change ( :* "
Relying on Dark Lances in any kind of way spells disaster. Unless you're relying on them to fuck up.
Removing one squad also drops a raider. Not keen on that. But I do want a Liquifier or Shattershard. As to beefing up wrack units, it doubles their points, and makes them a "mainline" or even "Backfield" unit. But it means they'll actively take part in the battle, which is not what I want. Those fuckers will be hiding behind rocks, trees, and reserving to get homefield objectives.
Archnomad 70p · 731 weeks ago
Reliance on Ravagers? They're nice, yes, but I have 15 other lances you know.
Both of them cover bases I don't feel need covered with the army, and I prefer the ravager for anti tank.
Beastmasters will slice infantry to pieces far better than reavers. And take shots better. They pop tanks the same or better, depending on how far the tank moved, if it popped smoke. They cost more though, but not much.
^Incoherent reply too, but I honestly feel that units are being suggested that dont fit the list. If I added reavers I'd need more combat elsewhere, and we've already touched on my dislike of all the other assault units due to not bringing grenades. being shit, or some combination of the above. Or just not being as good as beasts.
Smurfy · 731 weeks ago
Archnomad 70p · 731 weeks ago
Clayman · 731 weeks ago
With cover, clever movement and wouind distrabution this army sounds like a bitch to take down. Although i think it relies on the BM's more than it looks like it does.
Archnomad 70p · 731 weeks ago
Not a bad thing, just the way the army is.
kevinmcd28 · 731 weeks ago
Archnomad 70p · 731 weeks ago
The Lieutenant · 731 weeks ago
My problem with Nightshields is that yes, they're awesome against melta. Unfortunately there is a shit tonne of autocannons, lascannons and missiles floating around.
Beastmasters have a LOT of wounds to chew through. Plus they're Beasts, so footslogging should only take a couple of turns. And any anti-infantry fire you're sending at them, you're not sending at the 3 man units cowering behind rocks, trees, and each other in backfield.
5+ invul....meh. Its a 2/3 chance to fail, and with the fragility of DE vehicles in general, all you need is one fail.
I wouldn't call it a silly misconception of today's meta. Lots of vehicles are good. He has 12, which is a lot, and also, as Clayman said, 145 wounds. That's a lot, with wound allocation and the Khymerae taking anything that could insta-kill bases. Plus the all important cover.
Also, calling the list 'easy to play against' seems kind of stupid. Have you ever played against this list? No? Well, how do you know? This list, played well, could be far harder to play against than you think.
Archnomad 70p · 731 weeks ago
Did you read anything in the article sans the list?
Ok, well, lets get to it. The trueborn do not go in the raider.
I have flickerfields on the empty raiders. These are the ones I am going to use to help provide cover.
Most of the raiders are empty. Chances are they will all be empty turn 2.
Night shields are useful but not useful enough these days. Yes they help vs melta and bolters, but that's not really what i'm worried about with this list.
In what universe are beastmasters slow? Presumably the universe Mephiston rides on top of a Thunderwolf and is still outpaced by a Monolith. Also, how the hell is that unit fragile?
Hate to break it to you, but DE infantry kind of suck. The only ones I'd even spare a 2nd glance at are scourges, warriors, trueborn, wracks and the court.
Unbalanced is about the only thing (minus us agreeing on ravagers being good) I'll give you. But that's because it runs min scoring to hide away and cap objectives.
Ahrimaneus 23p · 731 weeks ago
Kirby 118p · 731 weeks ago
Ahrimaneus 23p · 731 weeks ago
I've so far managed to hold my own very well with them. Current tally last I checked was two narrow losses vs. IG when I had the initiative stolen on me (BAH!) and a minor loss (tying the primary objective) in a doubles tournament at the top table in the final round with BA and paired against 2x SW.
In short, I love playing with the Dark Eldar =)
Kirby 118p · 731 weeks ago
Grovel 61p · 731 weeks ago
Archy · 731 weeks ago
Pinball Wizard · 731 weeks ago
In my own experience Dark Eldar are just not one of those "good on paper" armies. It takes a lot of list finicking and playtesting to get to somewhere where you're comfortable with your list and even then someone can come along with a completely different method of thinking and make another viable list from the book. So I thank Phil kelly for that (please redo my Eldar Phil!!!).
However I have to find the off topic argument above to be a little misguided. Yeah they retained that leetness, they also retained their squishy nature. No mitigating factor for taking damage...how about power from pain? The single best rule to come out of the book. The entire is clearly geared towards pulling off a great turn of shooting followed up with pain tokens being rewarded for clearing out the delicious squads inside. Dark Eldar MSU shooting is one of the scariest prospects I've come up against. They hit like guard but move like eldar. It's incredibly annoying. Can they be shot down? Hell yes. Does the cover system benefit them hugely? Another hell yes. Can they effectively get better as the game goes on? Yes if played correctly.
Also don't rule out any options in the book. Everything has a use when you gear towards it. Wych armies with proper melta/lance support are bloody good. Warriors geared out with splinter goodness backed up with proper fire support are bloody good. The fighter/bomber are also good choices, although they don't look it on paper. As far as your list above goes, clearly no trouble scoring and doing damage, and I imagine it does well. I fear for your flocks being insta-killed though, but not everyone packs in S6 guns so they'll be fine I guess.
Good article.