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Thursday, March 31, 2011

Guest Article: Crowe musings



Here's Dan's second guest article relating to Grey Knights and this comes in the form of the basis of a Crowe + Purifier list! Nothing revolutionary but a good analytical look at what taking Crowe + Purifiers gives you over your normal GKSS. 

Crowe, I wish to discuss this fellow and see what you think.

Firstly I keep hearing about the 'Crowe Tax' for Purifiers. Yes this is correct if you wish to run Purifiers as troops you must take Crowe, Crowe is annoying as he cannot go in a squad so has to run around on his own shouting shoot me Im a free kill point. At 150points he doesn't cost the earth but its pretty crap price for the lack IndiChar.

So the positives are he allows Purifiers as troops this is where the whole 'tax' issue i believe becomes a bit murky. If we look at the Purifiers compared to our other resident Grey Knight troops choice the gulf is huge. For 4 points we double the units base combat potential (this is huge when combined with Halberds) gain fearless (well I aint running off this goddamn objective and I have just raped you in combat with I6 power weapons so I'm gonna be winning) the ability to take cheap multiple psycannons without maxing out the squad (the cost is sort of offset by 5man being 120points) and Cleansing Flame psypower with squad wide LD9 (no crying when you lose your Justicar Ld9).

Cleansing flame is useful if you are bum rushed by lower save hordes that would otherwise likely drown your GKSS in mountains of body's. When cast you cause a wound on all models in B2B on a 4+ BEFORE all blows are struck, combined this with a follow up from I6 halberds youve done some pretty sweet damage before the opponent has had a chance to swing.

Now back to the tax issue. In order access these guys without Crowe you still need to invest in a HQ and 2 troop choices and then you can access your elites. What Crowe does is allow you to have your HQ and your Purifiers as troops still giving you access to the Elites slots if you desire.

If you want to keep it 'Grey Knight' the cheapest way to access your Purifiers is Champion (100pts) and 2 5man GKSS (200pts), So we have already spent 300 points on a mediocre HQ and two troops with no bling, no body's and no wheels to then go and spend potentially 900 points on 3 pimp units but unfortunatly can score. So we would potentially have to spend another 300 points on our troops to get them up to scratch and/or invest in a Grandmaster and appropriate unit for him to roll with to enable some scoring Purifiers. I.E. A big point sink (700+) when we can spend 150points on a... well a bit of a dud but skip all the other crap and dive straight into the bad boys of the dex.

for 272points you can get 8 Purifiers, 2 Psycannons, 5 Halberds and a master crafted Daemonhammer in a Rhino. GKSS Ok so we want 2 Psycannons so we need 10 bodys right? 200 points, 2 Psycannons... 20 points we would like the MC Hammer.. 15 points we also need a ride 40 points for a Rhino you want Psybolts? 20 points lets chuck in a few halberds 7 for 35points 330 points. For very similar firepower and less combat potency we spend 58 more points on GKSS over Purifiers.

Right so...

Crowe - 150

Purifiers : 2x Psycannon, 5x Halberd, MC Hammer, Rhino - 272
Purifiers : 2x Psycannon, 5x Halberd, MC Hammer, Rhino - 272
Purifiers : 2x Psycannon, 5x Halberd, MC Hammer, Rhino - 272
Purifiers : 2x Psycannon, 5x Halberd, MC Hammer, Rhino - 272

So we have spent 1238 points for our crappy HQ and 4 Awesome troops choices which over thier GKSS compatriots we save 208 points, still have 4 troop choices and the WHOLE codex still to choose from. I don't believe their is a 'Crowe tax' infact I would consider us 58points in the black.

Now I would like to make it clear that this is not my idea of 'the best list' it is simply another way to look at Crowe and how he can change things around without being considered some overcosted burdon on society. Yes you can access Purifiers with The Coat and cheap henchmen but this has its own issues, the GK Codex is so varied that this is just one list in a million potentials and I believe Crowe has received a bit of a bad rap.

I hope the general theme of the idea came over fairly clearly (probs not! :)).. please let me know what you guys think of the different perspective on Crowe.

Comments (23)

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Small note, Cleansing flame hits all models involved in combat (so those within 2" of B2B models as well), not just those B2B, so it's even betterer!
4 replies · active 735 weeks ago
I doubt it, as cleansing flame would actually be quite bad if it only hit models in B2B. Hammerhand would, in that case, almost always be a superior ability to cast, even against chaff infantry.

It counters horde units. That's what it does. Honestly, I don't think it's broken at all, and I hope they don't make any changes to it.
I agree and forgot to make a note of this in the article but don't think it will be FAQ'd at all. Grey Knights don't like hordes. Stormbolters, etc. can only do so much and once they get into combat, who cares about your force weapons? Purifiers on the other hand? Well suck it. :) .
...Because that's what it's supposed to do?
Tratchenberg's avatar

Tratchenberg · 735 weeks ago

If I was running Crowe my purifiers would be:
8 strong, 2 hammers, 2 psycannons, 4 halberds, rhino - 270
As opposed to a normal GKSS of:
10 strong, hammer, 2 psycannons, psybolts - 290

I think its fair to say no one is going to pay out for halberds on strike marines unless using old models. So I'd save 40 points over 2 squads, I'd take three units but the third wouldn't save me anything as the lists I'm looking at have a purifier unit using a standard HQ. That 40 points saved gets me better combat ability and cleansing flame while I lose 4 bodies, a fair bit of fire power and warp quake. While I'm not going to try say warp quake is better than cleansing flame I think it suffers, to some extent, from diminishing returns and I'd have a unit of purifiers in my army regardless of HQ. While it remains to be seen I believe fire power is going to be how grey knights win games as it did it in 3rd + 4th. Being good in combat was nice because you would inevitably get in combat but at that stage it was mopping up the enemy. So less fire power is bad in my opinion (which may or may not change as GKs come out of the woodwork with the new book).

So on to HQ’s. On one hand we’ve got Crowe which to be honest isn’t going to do much. He’ll hide in KP games and maybe contest an objective in objectives. It’s not as if he brings much to the table outside of troop purifiers. I plan on running a grand master – 3 servo skulls, rad grenades, and incinerator for 210 points. Down side of the grand master is you need a place for him to go. Now this can be done but worst case you just use him like Crowe and drop his wargear apart from the skulls which drops him to 190 points. For 40 points more than Crowe we get grand strategy and 3 servo skulls. Grand strategy is rather useful, giving at least one more scoring unit which will quite possibly give me an equal number of scoring units for objective games and useful abilities for KP missions. The 3 servo skulls give you a measure of control over your opponent, in particular stopping scouting first strike units, which warp quake also helps with I might add.

So for 80pts less I get a mostly useless HQ, extra combat goodness and extra cleansing flame. For that 80pts I would get a couple of extra wounds, better fire power, warp quake, servo skulls and grand strategy while losing a bit of cleansing flame. Personally I’ll leave Crowe at home :)

My thoughts are based off comparing HQ and a rough idea of troops/elite selection for an army; it is possible there is some super effective Crowe/purifier based army that I haven’t come across at this point. Anyway, just my take on Crowe if you managed to get to this point :D
1 reply · active 735 weeks ago
I like your views. The GM at least has the option of joining a unit that is not in a transport. If you are planning to just use stratagy to make purifers scoring I might drop the second strike squad in size and use them as a retinue for the Grand Master and pump up one purifer squad to ten so they can combat squad in missions with lots of objectives.
Crowe cannot go in a squad? I assume that's only to protect the squad he's with from his sword?

Consider as well, is there any reason why Crowe attached to Purifiers in close combat couldn't hit assaulting units with 2x Cleansing Flame? One from Crowe and one from the Purifiers? Orks and Gaunts would lose 25 out of 30. MEq loses 3 of 10. That's all before Halberds strike, which at I6 will still go before most opponents with Furious Charge.

After Cleansing Flame and I6 Halberds, which enemy units does Crowe turn into units you don't want to be assaulted by that weren't already such units? Which units should a Crowe user now worry about? Which units don't really benefit from Furious Charge or rerolls to hit? Which units do? Raveners with FC and rerolls... daaamn. TH/SS Terminators.... ehh, not so much. Still not good to be assaulted by, but not greatly improved by Crowe.

I think this is the kind of analysis Crowe needs.
3 replies · active 735 weeks ago
Crowe is not an Independent Character, and as such may never join a squad. According to comments from the designers, this was intentional.
Ahh, there it is. Gotcha. My mistake.
He can still join in a multi assault.
my current thoughts on a crowe list:

1749 Points (which is what we play at our club)
Crowe 150
Ven Dread w/ MM, Doomfist 175
Ven Dread w/ MM, Doomfist 175
5 Purifiers, MC Ham, PsyC, 3xHalb, Rhino 186
5 Purifiers, MC Ham, PsyC, 3xHalb, Rhino 186
5 Purifiers, MC Ham, PsyC, 3xHalb, Rhino 186
5 Purifiers, MC Ham, PsyC, 3xHalb, Rhino 186
Psyfleman 135
Psyfleman 135
Dreadknight w/ teleporter, Incinerator 235

I think in that list the village idiot (Crowe) might not get target priority for a while.
1 reply · active 735 weeks ago
Other than the Dreadknight it's a nice list. I'd drop the DK in place of bumping two Purifier units up in size (or potentially three depending upon points).
Ahhh, there it is. Gotcha.
Crowe gets 1 attack for each model in base contact? Model him on a Trygon base, job done!
Roland Durendal's avatar

Roland Durendal · 735 weeks ago

Good article Dan! I had much of the same thoughts when I revised my Crowe list, which I guess I'll get around to posting tonight. Anyway, I find that Crowe lists really must utilize MSU to the fullest to get the most out of his benefit of Purifiers as Troops. Min sized squads tooled out and riding in a metal box backed up by some Psyfleman dakka.
The flaw in your Tax reasoning is that you're trying to make strike squads into Purifiers; don't! It's just not efficient to do so. Therefor, claiming that using Crowe actually saves you point is a bit misleading since you would need to build you army completely differently then what you are suggesting when not using him.
4 replies · active 735 weeks ago
I wouldn't really say that's a flaw but rather a comparison into what you normally have compared to what you get.

That being said, Crowe compared to 150 points of other HQs (i.e. Libby) isn't really included and is where the whole 'Crowe tax' comes from. Certainly the Purifiers are better than the GKSS, we know this and it's why they are pointed more but having 150 points of basically meh in your HQ is a pretty hefty price to pay and only really pays off at higher point levels.
What I was trying to get across is that you can't build an army trying to be Purifiers (but can't) and use the costs that this involves in justifying that there is no Crowe Tax. Maybe I'm not being clear I'm pretty tired and trying to translate your thoughts with a tired brain is not very effective.
Gotta agree with Desc440, Dan makes certain assumptions and bases his analysis on that. Without those assumptions his whole story doesn't hold ground.

This part especially makes his argument very weak: "If you want to keep it 'Grey Knight' the cheapest way to access your Purifiers is Champion (100pts) and 2 5man GKSS (200pts)"
Why would you do such a thing? People aren't saying Crowe is so bad you can just as well take minimum HQ + troops and then max on Purifiers... That's never been the vocal point of the discussion: The thing is comparing a Crowe build to a non-Purifier build.

I'm a little tired personally to all the people (not the writer) who act like Purifiers are so much better than regular GKSS. 4 points a guy IS a pretty hefty point increase as you keep your same defensive statline. Halberds still make your guys more expensive. You still pay for your 2nd psycannon and you upgrade it on a guy which is 4 points more expensive. You also cannot deepstrike and you do lose Warpquake.
Because of this in the end Crowe is a tax and the question is IF and WHEN it pays off (when = which points total). Other HQ choices are good; especially inquisitors imo.
Yeppers, totally agree.
Good article I like that someone is airing on caution before declaring any new unit worthless. Any way I think people should get more games in before calling any unit in the army a piece of crap. I kinda think it's gross that the codex hasn't even arrived in my area and people already have beef with unplayed units...

Oh and remember when the IG came out? Everyone was saying that Valks were the way to go and that Vendettas were too much of a niche vehicle. 2 years in and I hardly ever see a valkyrie on the table.
1 reply · active 735 weeks ago
Haha, I don't remember people saying that - but those people are chumps. :p

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