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Thursday, March 31, 2011
Guest Article: Crowe musings
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Here's Dan's second guest article relating to Grey Knights and this comes in the form of the basis of a Crowe + Purifier list! Nothing revolutionary but a good analytical look at what taking Crowe + Purifiers gives you over your normal GKSS.
Crowe, I wish to discuss this fellow and see what you think.
Firstly I keep hearing about the 'Crowe Tax' for Purifiers. Yes this is correct if you wish to run Purifiers as troops you must take Crowe, Crowe is annoying as he cannot go in a squad so has to run around on his own shouting shoot me Im a free kill point. At 150points he doesn't cost the earth but its pretty crap price for the lack IndiChar.
So the positives are he allows Purifiers as troops this is where the whole 'tax' issue i believe becomes a bit murky. If we look at the Purifiers compared to our other resident Grey Knight troops choice the gulf is huge. For 4 points we double the units base combat potential (this is huge when combined with Halberds) gain fearless (well I aint running off this goddamn objective and I have just raped you in combat with I6 power weapons so I'm gonna be winning) the ability to take cheap multiple psycannons without maxing out the squad (the cost is sort of offset by 5man being 120points) and Cleansing Flame psypower with squad wide LD9 (no crying when you lose your Justicar Ld9).
Cleansing flame is useful if you are bum rushed by lower save hordes that would otherwise likely drown your GKSS in mountains of body's. When cast you cause a wound on all models in B2B on a 4+ BEFORE all blows are struck, combined this with a follow up from I6 halberds youve done some pretty sweet damage before the opponent has had a chance to swing.
Now back to the tax issue. In order access these guys without Crowe you still need to invest in a HQ and 2 troop choices and then you can access your elites. What Crowe does is allow you to have your HQ and your Purifiers as troops still giving you access to the Elites slots if you desire.
If you want to keep it 'Grey Knight' the cheapest way to access your Purifiers is Champion (100pts) and 2 5man GKSS (200pts), So we have already spent 300 points on a mediocre HQ and two troops with no bling, no body's and no wheels to then go and spend potentially 900 points on 3 pimp units but unfortunatly can score. So we would potentially have to spend another 300 points on our troops to get them up to scratch and/or invest in a Grandmaster and appropriate unit for him to roll with to enable some scoring Purifiers. I.E. A big point sink (700+) when we can spend 150points on a... well a bit of a dud but skip all the other crap and dive straight into the bad boys of the dex.
for 272points you can get 8 Purifiers, 2 Psycannons, 5 Halberds and a master crafted Daemonhammer in a Rhino. GKSS Ok so we want 2 Psycannons so we need 10 bodys right? 200 points, 2 Psycannons... 20 points we would like the MC Hammer.. 15 points we also need a ride 40 points for a Rhino you want Psybolts? 20 points lets chuck in a few halberds 7 for 35points 330 points. For very similar firepower and less combat potency we spend 58 more points on GKSS over Purifiers.
Right so...
Crowe - 150
Purifiers : 2x Psycannon, 5x Halberd, MC Hammer, Rhino - 272
Purifiers : 2x Psycannon, 5x Halberd, MC Hammer, Rhino - 272
Purifiers : 2x Psycannon, 5x Halberd, MC Hammer, Rhino - 272
Purifiers : 2x Psycannon, 5x Halberd, MC Hammer, Rhino - 272
So we have spent 1238 points for our crappy HQ and 4 Awesome troops choices which over thier GKSS compatriots we save 208 points, still have 4 troop choices and the WHOLE codex still to choose from. I don't believe their is a 'Crowe tax' infact I would consider us 58points in the black.
Now I would like to make it clear that this is not my idea of 'the best list' it is simply another way to look at Crowe and how he can change things around without being considered some overcosted burdon on society. Yes you can access Purifiers with The Coat and cheap henchmen but this has its own issues, the GK Codex is so varied that this is just one list in a million potentials and I believe Crowe has received a bit of a bad rap.
I hope the general theme of the idea came over fairly clearly (probs not! :)).. please let me know what you guys think of the different perspective on Crowe.
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Guest Article: Crowe musings
2011-03-31T22:00:00+11:00
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Analysis|Grey Knights|List Building|
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Tom · 735 weeks ago
@bryce963 · 735 weeks ago
Are the other models that cannot fight in the unit not in the same assault too?
They can be taken as casualties, they cannot move, shoot or assault in a context outside of the present close combat.
I think they will FAQ it to be just base contact, because as worded a reasonable argument means you would all 30 of those boyz that charged you on a 4+.
sirbiscuit 81p · 735 weeks ago
It counters horde units. That's what it does. Honestly, I don't think it's broken at all, and I hope they don't make any changes to it.
Kirby 118p · 735 weeks ago
GOOSE · 735 weeks ago
Tratchenberg · 735 weeks ago
8 strong, 2 hammers, 2 psycannons, 4 halberds, rhino - 270
As opposed to a normal GKSS of:
10 strong, hammer, 2 psycannons, psybolts - 290
I think its fair to say no one is going to pay out for halberds on strike marines unless using old models. So I'd save 40 points over 2 squads, I'd take three units but the third wouldn't save me anything as the lists I'm looking at have a purifier unit using a standard HQ. That 40 points saved gets me better combat ability and cleansing flame while I lose 4 bodies, a fair bit of fire power and warp quake. While I'm not going to try say warp quake is better than cleansing flame I think it suffers, to some extent, from diminishing returns and I'd have a unit of purifiers in my army regardless of HQ. While it remains to be seen I believe fire power is going to be how grey knights win games as it did it in 3rd + 4th. Being good in combat was nice because you would inevitably get in combat but at that stage it was mopping up the enemy. So less fire power is bad in my opinion (which may or may not change as GKs come out of the woodwork with the new book).
So on to HQ’s. On one hand we’ve got Crowe which to be honest isn’t going to do much. He’ll hide in KP games and maybe contest an objective in objectives. It’s not as if he brings much to the table outside of troop purifiers. I plan on running a grand master – 3 servo skulls, rad grenades, and incinerator for 210 points. Down side of the grand master is you need a place for him to go. Now this can be done but worst case you just use him like Crowe and drop his wargear apart from the skulls which drops him to 190 points. For 40 points more than Crowe we get grand strategy and 3 servo skulls. Grand strategy is rather useful, giving at least one more scoring unit which will quite possibly give me an equal number of scoring units for objective games and useful abilities for KP missions. The 3 servo skulls give you a measure of control over your opponent, in particular stopping scouting first strike units, which warp quake also helps with I might add.
So for 80pts less I get a mostly useless HQ, extra combat goodness and extra cleansing flame. For that 80pts I would get a couple of extra wounds, better fire power, warp quake, servo skulls and grand strategy while losing a bit of cleansing flame. Personally I’ll leave Crowe at home :)
My thoughts are based off comparing HQ and a rough idea of troops/elite selection for an army; it is possible there is some super effective Crowe/purifier based army that I haven’t come across at this point. Anyway, just my take on Crowe if you managed to get to this point :D
Lyracian 59p · 735 weeks ago
kannascrusade 33p · 735 weeks ago
Consider as well, is there any reason why Crowe attached to Purifiers in close combat couldn't hit assaulting units with 2x Cleansing Flame? One from Crowe and one from the Purifiers? Orks and Gaunts would lose 25 out of 30. MEq loses 3 of 10. That's all before Halberds strike, which at I6 will still go before most opponents with Furious Charge.
After Cleansing Flame and I6 Halberds, which enemy units does Crowe turn into units you don't want to be assaulted by that weren't already such units? Which units should a Crowe user now worry about? Which units don't really benefit from Furious Charge or rerolls to hit? Which units do? Raveners with FC and rerolls... daaamn. TH/SS Terminators.... ehh, not so much. Still not good to be assaulted by, but not greatly improved by Crowe.
I think this is the kind of analysis Crowe needs.
tzeentchling 76p · 735 weeks ago
kannascrusade 33p · 735 weeks ago
Rob40K · 735 weeks ago
Tom · 735 weeks ago
1749 Points (which is what we play at our club)
Crowe 150
Ven Dread w/ MM, Doomfist 175
Ven Dread w/ MM, Doomfist 175
5 Purifiers, MC Ham, PsyC, 3xHalb, Rhino 186
5 Purifiers, MC Ham, PsyC, 3xHalb, Rhino 186
5 Purifiers, MC Ham, PsyC, 3xHalb, Rhino 186
5 Purifiers, MC Ham, PsyC, 3xHalb, Rhino 186
Psyfleman 135
Psyfleman 135
Dreadknight w/ teleporter, Incinerator 235
I think in that list the village idiot (Crowe) might not get target priority for a while.
Kirby 118p · 735 weeks ago
kannascrusade 33p · 735 weeks ago
Tom · 735 weeks ago
Roland Durendal · 735 weeks ago
Desc440 68p · 735 weeks ago
Kirby 118p · 735 weeks ago
That being said, Crowe compared to 150 points of other HQs (i.e. Libby) isn't really included and is where the whole 'Crowe tax' comes from. Certainly the Purifiers are better than the GKSS, we know this and it's why they are pointed more but having 150 points of basically meh in your HQ is a pretty hefty price to pay and only really pays off at higher point levels.
Desc440 68p · 735 weeks ago
Zjoekov 74p · 735 weeks ago
This part especially makes his argument very weak: "If you want to keep it 'Grey Knight' the cheapest way to access your Purifiers is Champion (100pts) and 2 5man GKSS (200pts)"
Why would you do such a thing? People aren't saying Crowe is so bad you can just as well take minimum HQ + troops and then max on Purifiers... That's never been the vocal point of the discussion: The thing is comparing a Crowe build to a non-Purifier build.
I'm a little tired personally to all the people (not the writer) who act like Purifiers are so much better than regular GKSS. 4 points a guy IS a pretty hefty point increase as you keep your same defensive statline. Halberds still make your guys more expensive. You still pay for your 2nd psycannon and you upgrade it on a guy which is 4 points more expensive. You also cannot deepstrike and you do lose Warpquake.
Because of this in the end Crowe is a tax and the question is IF and WHEN it pays off (when = which points total). Other HQ choices are good; especially inquisitors imo.
Desc440 68p · 735 weeks ago
SPQP · 735 weeks ago
Oh and remember when the IG came out? Everyone was saying that Valks were the way to go and that Vendettas were too much of a niche vehicle. 2 years in and I hardly ever see a valkyrie on the table.
TheKingElessar 71p · 735 weeks ago