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Friday, March 18, 2011

PsyCoteaz - Kirby's Grey Knight army list [Part 4]



Here we finally are, a very long-winded account on this list is coming to an end. We've analysed a lot of choices that I want to include in this army list and have boiled them down quite a bit but we still need to sort out the Troops! The obvious conundrum is balancing model numbers and durability whilst still maintaining effective point usage.

Let's look at some basic templates of options:

2x Jok, 1x Acolyte, Rhino = 114 points (monkeymobile) 
This can also be done in a Chimera with more Joks and aims to provide fire support from downfield whilst holding objectives.

8x Psykers, 1x Acolyte, Rhino = 124 points (psybunker)
Still that love/hate relationship...7 Psykers gives you that coveted S10 AP1 blast whilst the acolyte ensures Perils doesn't wipe out the squad. 36" range means this unit can be quite safe and attempt to avoid psychic defense but is still limited by Ld8 and no skulls in the army.

3x Acolyte, Razorback w/TL-assault cannon, Psybolts = 97 points (passback)
Cheap scoring option with a big gun. This is the pinnacle of fragile Troop with only three T3/5+ models hanging around. For an extra 12 points can up it to six but still not exactly reliable. That being said it's cheap and has a pretty effective gun on the Razorback. You could also go for ranged guns such as LasPlas or TLLC to help the Dreadnoughts in ranged suppression or for cheap scoring firepower a Psyback (HB + psybolt ammo). Edit: after play-testing these final options have been more useful as the passback is just too expensive and suffers too much on the damage chart if out of position (short-ranged, one weapon, etc.).

11x Crusaders, Chimera = 220 points
A Coteaz 'bodyguard' which is decently durable and brings a bit of dakka to the field with the Chimeras guns but still suffers from the issue of no frags and assault transport. No rad grenades either means they won't be wounding a lot of things on 2s but Coteaz does hand out hammerhand.

10x Grey Knights w/2x psycannons, psybolt ammo, MC hammer, Rhino = 295 points 
What will most likely be the 'standard' template for a strong scoring presence in Grey Knights, it's 90 points more expensive than a Tactical squad but has 2x heavy/special weapons compared to the heavy/special combo. Add in psybolt ammunition and there is some decent duality against low AV tanks and Fortitude of the Rhino gives the squad a lot more options in terms of movement and shooting. Expensive but very solid at holding midfield and putting out firepower.

Putting it all together

So there are some really cheap options, fire support options and expensive options. I think the Dreadnoughts in the list as it stands are enough fire support since we are aiming for a midfield dominate list. Monkeymobile type units would be very beneficial in providing MM to midfield and lascannons from backfield (whilst also scoring) but aren't really helping the list saturate midfield. The same can be said of the Psybunkers who want to stay at range as much as possible to avoid any potential psychic defenses and combats. This leads us to the Crusader/Death Cult Chimeras or MSU passbacks. The Crusaders/DCA are quite expensive and very aggressive in nature. They'd work great as a counter assault unit but are quite pricey and not as durable as we'd like. MSU passbacks (or whatever other weapon configuration) is quite cheap but not at all durable in terms of scoring. However it does provide excellent midfield firepower and obviously another vehicle chassis. I like the idea of this but we'd really need to shore the scoring ability in some other way. The Crusader squad is again a potential choice with 11 3++ models but the Grey Knights are studier for the most part and more capable of providing firepower in midfield (18 S5 + 4-8 S7 rending shots). They work just as well as a counter-assault unit if necessary as well.

So we've got our basic outline of what we want to do with our Troops now let's see what we can fit in. We have 535 points to fiddle with. Two full squads of GK would be great but likely out of the question as they are 295 a pop. Let's take a single squad then with 240 points left. That's not really enough for any considerable amount of passbacks so we're going to need to drop something. I'd prefer not to lose the Psyfledreads as they are the only ranged fire support I have. With the Grey Knights as a scoring option I'm happy to lose one of the Purifier squads. I lose some combat ability and midfield supremacy but still have two squads to back it up. This gives me 510 points to play with and a lot more room for options! 

I could take all of those points and purchase 5 passback squads and use leftover points for upgrades but the list still suffers a bit from so-so scoring. Let's take 4 passback squads then and see what we can do with the leftover points. There's only 122 so we can't do too much. A min-sized GK squad costs 150 so let's see if we can't reach that level; we need to shave 28 points. Easy to do, we'll drop a Purifier w/Hammer (Corteaz can now ride in that squad) freeing up 29 points and leave us with 15 MEQ + 12 GEQ as Troops in six metal bawkes. Not great but a lot better than just GEQs. Let's take a loo at the overall list.

The Finale

Coteaz
7x Purifiers w/4x Halberds, 1x Hammer, 2x Psycannons, Rhino
8x Purifiers w/4x Halberds, 2x Hammer, 2x Psycannons, Rhino
10x Grey Knights w/2x psycannons, MC hammer, psybolt ammo, Rhino
5x Grey Knights w/psycannon, Rhino
4x3x Warrior Acolytes w/Razorback w/TL-assault cannon, psybolt ammo
3x Dreadnoughts w/2x TL-autocannons, psybolt ammo

Totals: 1849 points
43 infantry
11 tanks

This gives us a lot of firepower at the 24" range. We could get more by changing the 5x GK squad into a small Purifier squad w/2x psycannons but scoring is already an issue with the list. Our Purifiers aren't great at cc but are quite scary to most things that aren't TH/SS Terminators and are very effective at controlling hordes. The mass of S7 and S5 firepower behind them from the passbacks and Grey Knight Strike Squads is very effective at dropping tanks and infantry alike whilst the Dreadnoughts can cover the whole advance in the early stages of the game.

There are also easy options for scaling up and down. To 1750 we simply need to drop one of the passbacks (or the 5-strong GK squad) and an upgrade. To take it down 1500 we'd need to drop a passback, the small GK squad and a Dreadnought so perhaps not as feasible there. For scaling up to 2000 though we've got a lot of options. We can fill out the small GK squad and give it double psycannon, psybolt ammo and a hammer (1995 points) or add a Libby in for improved midfield dominance. If we were to do this I'd change one of the passbacks to a Chimera based squad so the Libby can hitch a ride. We could also re-add the third Purifier squad but some points would need to be cut elsewhere. For that reason I'd stick with either the 2nd full GK squad or Libby at 2000 points.

I hope these posts have given you an insight into my thought processes behind this list and the overall evolution and how it changed (somewhat). I'll be doing some play-testing over the coming weeks (had a couple games so far) to see how it fares and if any tweaks are needed though c&c are welcome!

P.S. Most of the pictures in these posts has come from BulldogUK on Warseer. His minis are mad!

Edit: And here's an updated version after some tinkering and play-testing (i.e. finally being convinced over the passback mehness). Overall a bit of firepower is lost but your scoring is much more secure. They symmetry is also pretty.

Coteaz
8x Purifiers w/2x psycannon, hammer, 5x halberd, Rhino
8x Purifiers w/2x psycannon, hammer, 5x halberd, Rhino
2x10x GKSS w/2x psycannon, MC hammer, psybolt, Rhino
2x6x Acolytes w/Razorback w/psybolt
2x6x Acolytes w/Razorback w/las, plas
2x Psyfledreads

Totals: 1850 points
61 infantry (38 MEQ)
10 tanks

Comments (30)

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Great series of posts. I can follow your logic through almost all of it but I didn't follow something a few posts back. Why not more purifiers so you can combat squad them? Sorry for the n00b question, but I'm brand new to the game.
3 replies · active 734 weeks ago
he stated this in the first post, 5 just isnt going to cut it in close combat
10 man squads are better with Grand Masters where you can combat squad with Scout or Scoring options. As Squ1rrel said though, you lose a bit of the midfield presence when you cut down to two 5 man squads so I wouldn't take 4x psycannons. A 10 man squad would look something like...

2x psycannon, 2x hammer, 6x halberd, rhino and potentially psybolts. From there you split into a hammer, psycannon, 3x halberd teams to give you more flexibility but you don't have that oomph from a single unit.
As far as I follow, the only real advantage of combat squading them would be for double Cleansing Flame. You'd still be basically running them together, for that reason. It's more attractive if you are running a GM, of course.
Enjoyed reading through these and looking into the thought patterns other people go through in creating lists. Good read(s)!
really good series, i enjoyed it a great deal.

do you think there is a possibility you could replace one dread for a dreadknight in a list like this? i am looking for ways to fit a single one into 1750, but all the guns they can take seem a bit rubbish.
1 reply · active 734 weeks ago
I'm really not a Dreadknight fan though I think if you are going Dreadknight there are better lists to put them in. Grand Master, Inq w/plas syphon and GKT jump to mind as a pure foot list, etc.
Good listing kirbs, any chance of a fluffy all gk list?
1 reply · active 734 weeks ago
Drop Coatez for Libby and change all the Hench to GK Strike Squads if you wanted to use this outline. Not as effective IMO hence using Coteaz and Henchmen.

Otherwise go Crowe + Purifiers + Psyfledreads and potentially Interceptor squads, GM, LIbby.
I'd consider switching at least 1 Razor to TLLC or pLASmabacks, just to have something scoring that can sit at the back and provide AT fire support in objective games.

Also, having one, maybe 2 Warrior squad with meltas for suicides against Raiders and the like might not be a bad idea.

Do Purifiers get 2 specials per 5 men, or is it just 2 specials regardless of the size of the squad?
1 reply · active 734 weeks ago
2 per 5.

Having a razor or two as long-ranged is certainly an option for a backfield scoring option and whilst melta would be great, it's not too effective in this list as you'd need to ride swap (which can be a pain) so you can top-hatch. In the end up to 44 S7 rending shots will generally slow down AV14 but isn't hyper reliable as you said.
Not exactly a budget Army. That's 400+ dolars only in tanks. Excelent idea though.
Land Raider might be a problem with no melta. You have a lot of rending but those 6's sometimes don't come up. I have had some success with 3 meltas in chimera with flamer. The same thing I use in my IG, just a lot cheaper and with GK's around to say don't come close.
KingCronan's avatar

KingCronan · 734 weeks ago

oh god you fit 4 passbacks in?!?! i have a feeling the 3 man warrior passbacks are going to be a staple in many armies, especially with Coteaz.
I'm still partial to units of 3 monkeys in chimeras. 165 points for 3 lascannons, a heavy bolter and multi laser in an av 12/10/10 package!
A minor question.
Isn't it 8 psykers needed for the s10/ap1 blast?
Other than that...personally I'd like to see some more interesting henchmen combos than the Passback, but that's only silly me. :P
3 replies · active 734 weeks ago
Yes it is, my bad.

What's not to love about min-sized squads making transports scoring :P? lol
Because you instantly lose both your firepower and the scoring aspect at once when the transport is gone for example.

I don't really get the love for the Passback: 1 weapon, making the unit harmless at a weapon destroyed result. Not only that but the weapon itself adds more of the same thing...Psycannons do the same and are spread around through your troops. I'm seeing much more value to simply buying Las/Plas for them: Different weapon profiles (Ap2 and 48" S9 isn't bad at all) and the longer range from the lasscannon makes it easier to limit the return fire you'll get. More: 24" for all your vehicles (or the psycannon wielding guys in it) means you'll have problems of positioning everything smoothly. You'll be finding you need to be closer with some vehicles than you actually want as there simple isn't enough place to place everything properly. Unless you spread everything out and do an awesome White Dwarf-like deployement ofc. Bit of a typical theorylist which might not just do what you had in mind when playing with it... but then again: I could be wrong just as well ^^

And I don't know how relevant Kill-points are for that tournament, but 20 is really quite a lot... Well and the fact that there are some relatively easy ones makes it that you might find it difficult to actually win games with a proper margin. (less relevant in a W/L/D kind of system when you can make sure you simply kill more ofc getting you the full win even when you lost loads yourself too)
Same problem with a lot of Razorbacks though. I think if I went for a more Grey Knight build you'd turn those into Las or LasPlas Rbacks (and run only 2), then run a Meltabunker of some description and more Grey knights. The issue with lowering the number of S7rending shots and not having significant melta will become AV14. As it stands 40 shotsS7 rending shots gives you roughly 1-2 damage results. You take away 16 of those shots and unless you shore it up (which LasPlas alone don't), you'll have potential issues.

24" for the majority of your army and no fast status is the bigger issue IMO.

Anyway more food for thought.
It looks like a pretty good list. However, a couple things that stick out at me overall:

-Psybolt on the GK squad doesn't impress. S5 Storm Bolters, yeah, but only once you've gotten out of your transport, as the Psycannon. 300pts is an awful lot to be investing in a squad of MEQs.

-Passbacks are nice, but at 85pts for an AV11 target, they feel really, really vulnerable to me. And, as others point out, their 24" range further clusters your army into an awkward zone, all the more so because you aren't Fast. Improved performance against other AV11 targets is the main benefit of Psybolt for the vehicle, but I think you would do better to invest some points elsewhere instead. The basic Razorback with a Storm Bolter and Psybolt is 20pts cheaper, gets you five shots instead of four (albeit at a weaker strength) and feels like a better suppression unit; the LasPlas would also solve more of your long-range anti-tank platforms if you went that way.

-The 5man GK squad feels sorta like an after-the-fact inclusion with leftover points.
abortedsoul's avatar

abortedsoul · 734 weeks ago

The passbacks suffer from mono gun syndrom. I've run them several times, and on such a flimsy platform assault cannons just beg to eat rifledread shots. Because their cannons are short range, early immobilized results kills them, one weapon destroyed result kills them, and regular wrecked and explodes! results kill them. That is a 2/3 chance on any penetrating hits, and a 1/3 chance on even a glance.
Updated list posted.
The list looks really good, I'd be temped to build it if it wasn't so expensive. I think Cortez is an excellent choice.
1 reply · active 733 weeks ago
I only have to buy the GK and henchmen really so not so bad for me. I've already fit why the GK are using my Chapter's tanks into my fluff!

Take that WAAC labellers!
What about this Kirby?

Cortez; 100

Venerable rifleman dread, psybolts; 195
Venerable rifleman dread, psybolts; 195
Venerable rifleman dread, psybolts; 195

6 warriors, 3 storm bolters, 3 melta guns, razorback, assault cannon, psy bolts; 148
6 warriors, 3 storm bolters, 3 melta guns, razorback, assault cannon, psy bolts; 148
6 warriors, 3 storm bolters, 3 melta guns, razorback, assault cannon, psy bolts; 148
6 warriors, 3 storm bolters, 3 melta guns, razorback, lascannon; 143
6 warriors, 3 storm bolters, 3 melta guns, razorback, lascannon; 143
2 jokero weaponsmiths, 3 mm servators, 3 warriors, 3 stom bolters, chimera; 176

Rifleman dread, psy bolts; 135
Rifleman dread, psy bolts; 135
Rifleman dread, psy bolts; 135

1999
1 reply · active 733 weeks ago
I wouldn't bother with the Storm bolter Warriors and I think the 6x Dread list is done better with Purifiers + Crowe. your scoring isn't too reliable and you don't have that much firepower outside of the Dreads. The meltaguns also need to hop out to actively damage things since there are no firepoints which is an issue when they are your scoring as well.
And the latest incarnation...

Coteaz
8x Purifiers w/2x psycannon, hammer, 5x halberd, Rhino
8x Purifiers w/2x psycannon, hammer, 5x halberd, Rhino
2x10x GKSS w/2x psycannon, MC hammer, psybolt, Rhino
2x6x Acolytes w/Razorback w/psybolt
2x6x Acolytes w/Razorback w/las, plas
2x Psyfledreads

Totals: 1850 points
61 infantry (38 MEQ)
10 tanks

A lot of people have been hounding on the passback and I do agree with them. I floated the idea of the Psybacks in the spamming mental exercise post and they've been tossed around by others quite a lot on the chatbawks. I'll give them a whirl and see how they go.
Are you not worried about having no psychic defence, or do you think its ok not to have any?
1 reply · active 732 weeks ago
No psy defense is annoying but not a necessity like for all armies out there.

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