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Tuesday, April 26, 2011

Armies in 5th: Grey Knights Part 1: Psycannons and Stormbolters


Grey Knights have been called boring, bland and repetitive and this is certainly true to an extent in the basic template of the army. You've got a MEQ statline armed with a Stormbolter and Nemsis Force Weapon, access to the psycannon, psilancer and incinerator special/heavy weapons, the psychic power Hammerhand and then specific defining features depending upon which Force Organisation slot they use (i.e. A2, Cleansing flame for Purifiers or four heavy weapons, Astral Aim for Purgation Squads). In the end this leaves the core firepower and options of a Grey Knight army quite similar and these are the humble storm bolter and psycannon.

I've already made an obvious assumption here: I'm choosing the psycannon over the incinerator and psilancer. This really is going to be a staple for nearly every squad of Grey Knights due to the flexibility it brings. Able to fire on the move or whilst stationary to greater effect with two to four shots which are very capable at anti-tank. Easily accounted for throughout the army brings significant firepower to your Grey Knight army and a great ability to deal with all ranges of armor values. The psilancer on the other hand doesn't really provide anything amazing unique compared to the bog standard storm bolter and whilst the incinerator is a great anti-infantry weapon being a S6 template, the sheer volume of firepower a Grey Knight list is generally capable of putting out, extra anti-infantry often isn't needed. This is a key understanding of how Grey Knights are built and played when using Storm Bolters and Psycannons. Let's look at this further.



Since most basic infantry models (obviously excluding Henchmen and Inquisitors) carry Storm Bolters the Grey Knight army operates very effectively 24" away from the opponent whilst also remaining mobile in terms of anti-infantry. Double-tapping with rapid fire weapons is a very effective way of inflicting lots of wounds of infantry models. Having storm bolters throughout the army therefore allow Grey Knights to effectively fight infantry from a distance and on the move as Storm Bolters effectively double tap at 24". This is really important when you consider how Grey Knight lists are built and how they play on the table. Importantly you rarely have to factor in dedicated anti-infantry units into your army as you've have a lot of S4/5 firepower which is effective from very early on. We'll look at how this affects the army's play style after we look at psycannons however.


The psycannon fits very well with stormbolters in that it is effective at 24"and can fire on the move. This has the great bonus of not limiting anti-infantry by taking what is effectively an anti-tank weapon (unlike in other Space Marine armies) which puts out the same (or more when stationary) shots as the storm bolter. This makes shooting at infantry units with psycannons and stormbolters have very little opportunity cost in potential firepower wasted (i.e. overkill of a missile launcher against an Ork). The real reason to take a psycannon of course is the ability it adds in the anti-tank department and this is where you see opportunity cost. Having a couple of mobile, rending, short-ranged autocannons per Grey Knight squad is amazing to have, particularly when they are stationary but when you end up shooting at infantry with the stormbolter/psycannon combo, you lose anti-tank potential and when you use the psycannons to shoot at tanks, you're losing stormbolter firepower against infantry.


This opportunity cost is mitigated when we acknowledge the 'repeition' and 'blandness' of the codex as nearly every infantry Grey Knight unit in a given army has this decision to make. By having so many units which encounter this opportunity cost, the Grey Knight army is able to overcome the potential loss of firepower and this combined with the effective range and mobility of these weapons creates a certain effective playstyle for Grey Knight armies built around Stormbolters and Psycannons. This is where the infantry units are outside of their transports. Rather than using their metal bawkses as bunkers, Grey Knights use them as extra cheap firepower (Psybacks) and quick mobility towards midfield. From there Grey Knight units operate on foot for the most part to maximise their firepower. This is due to their basic weapon (the storm bolter) being an effective anti-infantry weapon at range. This allows the Grey Knights to fight effectively on foot and at range unlike many other basic Troop units which rely upon rapid fire weapons as their main source of torrenting firepower.


Ultimately most Grey Knight armies (particularly ones focused on Grey Knight units) are going to operate around Stormbolters and Psycannons. There is nothing wrong with this though some people may feel this makes for a bland codex but does lead to Grey Knights being a very different mechanised force compared to other armies. Furthermore, each unit has some opportunity cost in terms of what potential firepower is being lost by shooting at infantry or a tank compared to the other. This is mitigated by the amount of units you can take which have these options available but target priority becomes very important for Grey Knight units when there are both infantry and tank units abound. In the end, Grey Knights have access to a lot of anti-infantry firepower built into the majority of their armies and each of their basic units has access to a weapon which adds a lot of anti-tank whilst still improving the anti-infantry ability of the squad. This allows the Grey Knight army to operate as a mobile shooting force very effectively from 24" and should be taken advantage of when you build and play with a Grey Knights army.

Comments (47)

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Kind of seems to say the same thing over and over. None the less still a good look at fire power of the Space Knights.
I think there is still a place for Incinerators, since they ignore cover, but they are not as versatile as the Psycannon.
1 reply · active 726 weeks ago
Von Lettow-Vorbeck's avatar

Von Lettow-Vorbeck · 726 weeks ago

I'd say that this was an 'effective' article, myself.
I like the idea of "slightly different mech" since all we've had since 5th is a series of "hide in your box for the whole game until you absolutely have to get out, and even then you probably don't since you have a top hatch" armies. Mech Grey Knights seem to be the best representation of how Mech works in real life so far i.e. you use your transport to get where you're going, and then you disembark while using the transport for cover, fire support and re-mobilising afterwards. This is an improvement, and a style of play I would like to see a lot more of in the future for all armies.
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
The most satisfying thing about it is that the actual Grey Knights do the bulk of the work, unlike other mech Marine armies where the troops' importance vis-a-vis their transports is much less.

The other bit is that the enhanced reliance on the guys inside the tank makes the unit less reliant on being actually mechanized, especially given the Assault nature of all their guns. I might not bring it to a tourney, but a mostly-footslogging GK army with mobility elements is likely to be a lot more viable than most other foot Marine armies. Having units who are fully effective out to 24" and almost as much out to 30" helps mitigate a lack of ground speed.
One question that's not covered: Psybolt ammunition. Yea or nay?

I thought it might belong in this article, but maybe it'll be covered in Part X where X > 1.
4 replies · active 727 weeks ago
I have a hard time coming up with a reason to not take this upgrade, but I can't remember the specific cost.

How much would you pay to make all your Psycannon shots str 8 and Storm bolters str 5?

Suddenly this unit is able to reliably Suppress/Destroy any transport less than a Raider AND shoot/assault it's contents. I think that upgrade is worth quite a lot.
Psybolts do not affect psycannons. Psycannons are already like assault cannons with psybolt ammo.
Ahhhh, I must have missed that in my first read through. Thank you.
Sir_Prometheus's avatar

Sir_Prometheus · 727 weeks ago

Psybolts, on their own, have a 52.99% chance to "stop" a rhino. I find that compelling. (that's for 10 GK shooting) It adds ~20% to the chances of a squad containing psycannons to stop a rhino. I find that compelling, also.

Our maths...

(got to the GK tab. Maths are derived from the Weapons calc pages) https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AnFuN-yY...
The content of this post is excellent, but the rhetorical style is poor... each paragraph opens with basically the same sentence! Sorry, but I'm pretty much a proofreader/speech doctor for a licing so this sort of thing jumps out at me.

Anyhow, I agree with Sethis's sentiment that this "slightly different mech" approach is a refreshing change for the better. Conceptually, I have no problem with Guardsmen hiding in their "metal bawkses," but it just feels wrong for Space Marines of all chapters... not that I want a return to the "Multi-Marine Warhead Rhino Cruise Missiles" of Third Edition, but anything that will encourage Marines to get out and shoot would be nice. Perhaps the move and fire X / stand and fire X+ concept should be extended for the heavy weapons of the standard Space Marines' Heavy Bolter? It would also have the benefit of making this sadly neglected, but oh so iconic, weapon a viable option for Tactical Squads.

Craftworld Eldar, I think, also need some sort of incentive to get out of their transports! DAVU is anathema to me... if I were to write their next codex, I'd be looking at the Grey Knights for a lot of ideas.
7 replies · active 727 weeks ago
The similarities are unmistakable -- Dire Avengers have 18" range Storm Bolters already. I think the main reason they don't play like Grey Knights is because the transports are 3+ times the cost of a Rhino, with the net result that a Rhino-mounted squad of Grey Knights and a Serpent-mounted squad of Dire Avengers cost about the same (if I recall the cost of Eldar transports correctly). Lack of in-squad AT weapons is also a factor, but I think that role can be delegated to the Serpent's heavy weapon.

With cheaper Wave Serpents outfitted with antitank weapons they could end up with a similar approach, but the Dire Avengers would be motivated to stay in the transport for longer, due to its speed and because they don't have T4 nor power armor.
I wholly agree... everything you've said is the exact problem with the Craftworld Eldar as currently written. But dagnabbit, it just feels _wrong_.
"Sorry, but I'm pretty much a proofreader/speech doctor for a licing so this sort of thing jumps out at me. " yet your own mis-type doesn't? I hope that was intentional
Sir_Prometheus's avatar

Sir_Prometheus · 727 weeks ago

I'm sorry, but I do believe the man's point critiquing a writing style can survive a typo. Typos happen.
I blame this on the agents of a radical Inquisitor of theOrdo Typographius... clearly, this was an attempt to besmirch my honor!I was framed I tell you! Framed! ^_^
Do you wish me to edit your folly away =D?
Nah... my main point is perfectly clairific for people to understandize. ;)
If rather repetitive, the article does make a point of how the Grey Knights function. So far I haven't found them to be bland or boring, really.
I place Psybolts on every unit capable of having them, I find the additional strength invaluable.
Sir_Prometheus's avatar

Sir_Prometheus · 727 weeks ago

4 replies · active 726 weeks ago
I know "in my head" that the +1 Strength makes quite a bit of difference, but it never ceases to amaze me just how much of a difference when I see the math-hammer. I'm in the process of putting together an Armoured Battlegroup (IA Vol. 1) and the Grey Knights scare the heck out of me... potentially so many 2+ saves, so many high Strength assaults, and a surpsingly potent anti-tank shooting phase too.
Antebellum's avatar

Antebellum · 726 weeks ago

"potentially so many 2+ saves, so many high Strength assaults, and a surprisingly potent anti-tank shooting phase too."

And this is exactly why no one likes the Grey Knights if you're not already on their bandwagon. But you forgot their potent anti-infantry shooting and anti-assault psych powers.
The lack of paladins in your spreadsheet is disturbing.
Sir_Prometheus's avatar

Sir_Prometheus · 726 weeks ago

Um, why? Stormbolters and psycannons are all there. There are stats for 1,2, and 4 psycannons (needlessly listed twice, under purifier and purgation, actually). Pick one. If you wanted to use 3 psycannons......go do the math, we showed you how. ((1-(dmg rate))^N)

Other than the number of special weapons allowed, Paladins have no offensive difference from GKT.
I'm curious who is going to fall into the trap of giving their LR Crusaders psybolt ammo. But yeah, The grey knights have a distinct feel of heavy fire warriors. I just hope that when the new TE codex comes out they aren't a clone army.
7 replies · active 726 weeks ago
Sir_Prometheus's avatar

Sir_Prometheus · 727 weeks ago

Um, I would. Who cares that it keeps your hurricane bolters from being secondary weapons? That's not why you take the crusdaer, it's just a side benny. And frankly, most of the time you fire the hurricane bolters, you weren't moving anyway.

I do prefer redeemers, though.
I take it your alluding to hurricane bolters not being different from bolters and their for not eligible forthe phybolt upgrade. Personally i'd say since the weapon description states that they act as three TL bolters that they are eligible. Even if their not (another thing for the FAQ) it still might be worth the five points to get the assault cannon up to st8
Congraulations, you've fallen for the trap. Yes, they affect hurricane bolters. They also make your hurricane bolters non defensive weapons for being strength 5.

And whilst it is tempting to take it, it's still not worth it. The major plus of a Crusader is being able to have impressive anti-infantry firepower along side transporting terminators.
Impressive anti-infantry firepower on the move*
only when i dug out the codex after posting so sorry about that. It would be nice to edit your own post please. losing the defensive part doesn't seem to bad to me (i sure some one will come and prove me wrong with mathhammer) with POTMS. This might be because i alway seem to lose one weapon at least on the way in.
You can edit posts if you make an account :P.

The reason S4 is important on the Hurricanes is you can move 6" and fire all your weapons with the Crusader whilst if they become S5 you cannot do this.
Sir_Prometheus's avatar

Sir_Prometheus · 726 weeks ago

" The major plus of a Crusader is being able to have impressive anti-infantry firepower"

Meh. I'm really only taking them cuz I can fit in 8 terminators, or something like a 10-man + a libby and other ICs. I'm also heavily using the multi-melta and TL Psycannon. Nothing wrong with the hurricane bolters, but I very rarely find myself in need of extra dakka. If I can fire them on the move, meh, doesn't really affect my plans any.

I much prefer the flamestorm cannons. Man, you'd think people would stop being surprised by those things. But it happens all the time, I roll up, and boom, 6,7 MEQs just evaporated, easy. People line themselves up for you sometimes, they're just not expecting it. I guess not enough people take redeemers for people to get used to it.

If I could get the transport capacity of a Crusader with flamestorm cannons on it, I would in a flash. Screw hurricane bolters.
The antitank of Psycannons and psyfledreads dreads is both fantastic and frustrating at the same time. I managed 3wep destroyed results, immobilise on a hydra, 2wep destroyed immobilise a manticore, 3wep destroyed immobilise vendetta, immobilised 3chimeras took off 2multilasers 2 heavy flamers and a stubber + numerous stunned/shaken results in the first 4 or so turns. But it was kill points so really annoying not any ap1!!! Still the psyfledreads are amazing.
3 replies · active 727 weeks ago
Sir_Prometheus's avatar

Sir_Prometheus · 727 weeks ago

yeah....vehicle damage tables in 40K are a crap shoot. Game is far too random, in my opinion. Warmachine has a superior game system.....2d6 generates that rudimentary bell curve that really makes intelligent prediction possible.
I just wish I could travel back in time, to the distant and foggy days of the late 1970s, and introduce Rick Preistly to D10s. The "universal GW stat line" is based on 1-10, but the "universal" GW task resolution chart(s) are all based on 1-6. Sure, bricks of six-siders are much easier to roll en masse, but would the world freak if a few things used a broader range of numbers?
Sir_Prometheus's avatar

Sir_Prometheus · 726 weeks ago

Oh, but can you imagine rolling like 20 d10?
In basic squads the phycannon is pretty much the only option. But the Incinerators really shines in either terminator squads where the cannons are overpriced but the incinerators dirt cheap (the extra cost is slight justified because of the relentless rule). And the really jewel of the codex in purgation squads witch get four for free. So a basic 100pt+ transport cost get let you lay down four heavy flamers (with better AP) for either drive by flaming from a rhino or sitting back in a razor as a counter charge anti horde unit.
TBH the debate i'm having with my self is where taking this set up (purgations with razor phy bolters) or purifiers with only two incinerators (again a free upgrade) but cleansing flame.
9 replies · active 726 weeks ago
Relentless psycannons are a lot better than normal psycannons. I'll pay the extra points for that on Terminators.

Purgation squads or on Dreadnoughts or ICs is really the only place I'd recommend Incinerators.

In regards to Purgation squads I think a 2 psycannon/2 incinerator + Rhino or Psyback is a good buy in giving you flexibility and firepower.
Sir_Prometheus's avatar

Sir_Prometheus · 727 weeks ago

I would go so far as to say I would only ever use purgation squads for some crazy kinda quadruple incinerator squad (take that!.......everything with a wound stat, really).

I'm just not interested in 20pt incinerators (except when relentless, as you mentioned). The astral sight upgrade seems........nominal. Just how often, exactly, is a target within 24" completely out of sight?
When the Purgation squad hides behind RHinos/Razorbacks and is thus hard to access ^^ :) .
Behind the Razorack? Behind!? The Grey Knight players in my neck of the woods shoot from _inside_ the damn thing. We've yet to be able to figure out why this isn't legal, given the wording of that power.

Oi, how I wish the UPS guy would get here with my Destroyer Tank Hunter. 72" S10 AP2 Ord 2 will solve so many problems.
I looked at this - I think you'll find it says under fire points something about how many weapons can shoot. Being inside a vehicle isn't a line of sight issue - rather, you can't shoot at all, unless you have sufficient fire points.
The relevant wording of the Purgation Squad's power is that "[T]he unit ... can shoot at any enemy unit within range, even if they do not have line of sight to it[.]" Which needs to be read alongside the "Fire Points" section of the Big Grey Book, specifically, that "[r]anges and line of sight are measured from the fire point itself."

If, let's say, a Devastator Squad was aboard a Razorback, they could not shoot as the lack of fire points means they cannot draw line of sight as there are no fire points... but the Purgation Squad ignores that.

Don't get me wrong, the "community" at the FLGS has argued this back and forth. Most of us came to the conclusion that this probably wasn't GW's intention, but that it is how the rules are worded. Unless some sort of errata is issued, this is how we'll continue to play it.

Hence, my ongoing quest to figure out reliable ways to blow these things up on Turn One.
buemmschaf's avatar

buemmschaf · 727 weeks ago

I would suggest you widen your gaze to the sentence right before the one quoted in the BRB. "Unless specified different in the vehicle's entry, a single passenger may fire out of a fire point and the other transported models may not fire". i.e. if not otherwise specified, one weapon per fire point. No fire points, no weapons can be fired from inside. Nowhere in the Astral Aim entry does it say they override the requirement for firepoints. So unless I'm missing something, RAW say you can't.
I really don’t get the justification of this argument. The rules is interned to work like hive guard in as they can fire though terrain. In this case by guiding their shots, rather than smashing though it. But to claim they going to shot holes though their own transport is just stupid. Even form a pure rules point of view as well, models mounted are almost considered off the board and can’t be targeted by anything including your own buffs (I think phy’s or IG command can boast the squad with them when mounted but you can’t effect units from outside) . So why would it work in reverse??
"When the Purgation squad hides behind RHinos/Razorbacks and is thus hard to access ^^ ."

Yeah, I get that. But even then, are you completely out of LOS from where the enemy will be 6", 12" later? Just doesn't seem worth paying the extra points. Even if you're trying to protect from charge.......GK just have enough ways to deal with folks trying to charge them.
Antebellum's avatar

Antebellum · 726 weeks ago

I love the fact that someone took the time to Thumbs Down every comment in this post. Good article, Kirby. I do not like Grey Knights, I think they are too much. But I will say to all the people that talk about how only using Storm Bolters and Psycannons is boring ... look at some other armies. More than one army have a basic gun and a single heavy/special weapon essentially everywhere.
1 reply · active 726 weeks ago
Someone has being doing it a lot lately ^^.

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