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Friday, April 8, 2011

Dan rants- Grey Knights, what they are, and what they aren't.

First things first kids - stop with the tears, GK's aren't the end-game for 40k. They all have force weapons, oh noes, world implodes.
Now that I'm past that bugbear, lets have a look at some misconceptions that I thought were obvious in the GK codex.

Lie Number 1: GK's all have power weapons, therefore are all assault troops of AWESOME!

Wrong. GK's do all have power weapons. That doesn't mean all GK's are dedicated assault units. GK's, in general, are NOT an assault army. DCA are about the only thing in the list that functions purely as an assault unit, with DK's a passable second. Paladins, Purifiers, Grey Knights, and the like, are NOT assault units.

Paladins are WS5, with 2 attacks, and 2 wounds, I hear you cry! They also only have a 5+ invo. Dedicated units of CC troops will still tear them to shreds, although wound abuse can do a passable job of keeping you alive. TH/SS terminators make you cry, as they do everyone else, in assaults. (But you are still better than they are, for other reasons. More on this later.)

Okay, what about Purifiers! Surely they are better, you can spam I6 halberds! No, still not an assault unit. They are still -just- marines. Torrenting or power weapons from invulnerable or fast troops still smash them. Sure, you can do some damage and smash units which can't beat Marines in combat but you're not a CC unit.

GKSS and Interceptors are not assault units either. They just aren't.



Get this into your heads people - you are a midfield DEFENSIVE army. You pack neither the bodies, nor the bonuses, nor the FNP, to roll through people in CC. Your sweet spot is 18+ inches away, and you want to shoot shoot shoot. Kirby and Stelek both have written lists that advocate this and you know what? They are fudgemuffining right. You WANT people to assault you. You want to have them run through terrain, or sanctuary (so tasty) or into your Counter Attack wielding units of GK's with force weapons. The longer you can keep shooting, the better off you will be.

Lie Number 2: Razorbacks are for hiding in, for scoring metal bawkses with psyheavybolters!

Guess what, they are. If you're crap henchmen, in a Coteaz list. For GK's? No. I've seen some advocating of this style of play and I commented on it in a previous post. The 1+1 concept works for GKS, BUT THEY ARE NOT BLOOD ANGELS OR SPACE WOLVES, OR MECH MARINES. These armies keep short ranged, single shot weaponry, inside the box, so that if someone does come close, you can counter it. Grey Knights keep 24" range, rending firepower, or infantry decimating firepower, in every unit (unless your doing some fluffy thing).


Simple steps for GK players, that should be the rule, not the exception. 1. Drive your razorback towards your midfield, and park it up sideways. 2. Pile your marines out, and put as many of them between each razor as possible, with the psycannons sticking out with clear LOS. 3. Either pop smoke, or open fire, dependant on how far you had to move. GK's do razormech by DOUBLING your fire power, not by hiding it inside boxes. By deploying out, you are providing your opponent with 2 targets, both of which are within threat range. Like any razor list, you will lose tanks/models. Unlike any other razor list, you don't have to be within 12" to make those foot units threatening to infantry.

Do. Not. Hide. In. Boxes. Your wasting 110 pts (minimum) of shooting power every turn, in an army that pays a premium for its units, based on their arms and armament. Note here though, when your units get whittled down, jump in the damn boxes. This is why I like to have some Rhinos available as well when I take large squads as if the psycannon still lives he can use that top hatch.

Lie Number 3: Draigo Lists are overpowered

They really aren't. They are 2 wound terminators. They die to torrenting, just like ANY other terminator unit. 5 Paladins still takes 10 unsaved wounds to kill. So does 10 TH/SS Termies. Deal.


Lie Number 4: GK's are newb friendly

They are not. They are as easy to pick up as any other PA army, just they cost more. Played against other newbs, with similarly newb armies, they will appear to be strong. Played by newbs vs intelligent, well skilled players, (our readers, I hope) they are JUST MARINES. Seriously people. Every tourney army is geared towards killing marines, or MEQ, as they will be over 50% of your opponents in most cases.  Please stop freaking out about force weapon carrying dudes, its getting boring.

Truths, as Dan see's them. 

The army is like the DE - best used in the hands of a veteran player. Units, much like the DE, can function in isolation, but do so averagely, and really need support. No melta pounces on the conviction that melta is required in 5th ed armies, and psycannons on every unit means midfield threat is amazing. You can do damage in assaults, but like the DE, it is basically an option to finish an already mauled unit, rather than what you should be aiming to do. Rifledreads are awesome, but hey, guess what, nothing new. They were still awesome at str7, just seems like everyone has forgotten that.

Grand strategy is nice, but isnt essential. It's best used on things like scouting units, or granting counter attack, or scoring dreadnoughts (yes, I know what the BRB says, about walkers, but any TO worth a damn can see that the GK codex states otherwise. Some may not, and they, are douchewipes.)

The scout shunt list is -OK-. Its not the end of the world. Competent players will still castle, and prevent you from getting a good first turn assault - they would do it with BA jumpers, or anything else that's going to assault them anyways. This is no different.

Librarians are amazing. So much utility, and not locked into abilities for a whole tourney, is grand. You do pay for it though, and an option for PA on these characters would have been nice (or artificer, even). 4 powers are must haves, in my opinion - Shrouding, Sanctuary, Might of titan, and WARP RIFT. Yes, rift. its 5 pts, for a guaranteed pen, at melta range. You pay more for a meltagun on a Grey Hunter, who can miss, and really needs to be 2" closer to guarantee a pen. Oh, and its a template, so ignores cover saves. Must have.

Coteaz is great, I just won't write a list for him. The other inq's are more like upgrades for units of GK's, rather than being real IC's on their own - rather, they are a cheap way to get rad nades, or similar, into a squad of paladins or the like, so they can lay the beat down a little harder.

                                                     They still aren't assault troops though.


So basically, that's that off my chest. Looking forward to getting more games in, and I'll probably not play my GK's in a tourney till much later in the year, say when another codex comes out, after the hype dies down.
Happy daemon hunting, you lot.

SneakyDan

Comments (56)

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One thing I've noticed a lot lately is people discussing what is and what isn't an assault unit. From everything I've read, one would think the only real assault units in the game are TH/SS terminators, Nobz, and Genestealers. Everything else comes with the stipulation, "Sure, you can do some damage and smash units which can't beat Marines in combat but you're not a CC unit" or something similar.

Since most armies are not comprised of those units, its safe to say that we need some perspective here.
13 replies · active 729 weeks ago
CC tiers?
Tier 1: TH/SS, Nobs, Genes
Tier 2: GK's, banshees, other" Reasonable" assault units
Tier 3: tacticals etc
tier 4: the rest.
Genestealers? Dear god no, swap them with tyranid warriors.
thornyroses's avatar

thornyroses · 729 weeks ago

Warriors rather than Genestealers for assault? Sure you can give them the BS/LW combo for some I1 goodness and power weapon, but it becomes a bit pricey for a squad at about 45pt a model if i remember correctly (no codex with me), and they are lower WS than genestealers with no reroll to wound against T4 (giving stealers some Toxin obviously). I also don't rate their survivability that high in CC, they seem to die at a pretty fast rate agains power fists and the like, not to mention the GK force weapons. I'd rather take the less costly genestealers (2 for the cost of 1 warrior) with way more attacks on the charge and not cry when I lose those 1 wound models to the allmighty power/force weapons.
Give the Warriors Toxin.

Now they are WS5 (so hitting on 3s like 'Stealers), rerolling wounds, and ignoring saves with every hit.

Yeah, they die to Fists, but 'Stealers die to torrent; every unit has its weaknesses.

(Warriors and 'Stealers kill approximately the same MEQs per point, incidentally.)
thornyroses's avatar

thornyroses · 729 weeks ago

True, but the cost increases with the additional toxin on the warriors, getting very close to almost 3 stealers for one warrior. Add in fleet+infiltrate with the extra attacks from more bodies on the table and stealers just clinch it for me, obviously provided that those bodies can make it where they matter...and i just HATE to see perfectly healthy 3 wound models bite the dust from those Str8 missiles everyone and their puppies love (I know, I know, grab cover and hit the deck!).
Warriors are terrible compared to Stealers when you are talking about assault killing power // survivability.

Warriors just need str 8 to get 1shot. Missle spam, powerfist, etc.

stealers are superior.

~Lackeylsk
45 -> 50 is not a big change.

Warriors have three wounds to 'Stealers' one, so triple the cost is about right. (They have about the same killing power per point of cost, remember.)

4+ save means they don't get chewed to pieces trying to make that final charge. Lack of Fleet is unfortunate, but Infiltrate isn't a big deal- it just means they are arriving with the rest of your army rather than being a priority target early. You need to spend a couple turns cracking transports, anyways.

Yes, grab cover and hit the deck. If you built your army right, the Missiles aimed at your Warriors are ones that aren't going at your Tyrant, Tervigons, etc. Power Fists suck, but that's why you have Termagants.
tacticals? really? aren't they in with the rest?
I think the key to saying GKs are "not assault units" is more that they're just not assault specialists.

TH/SS Termies can't shoot. Genestealers can't shoot. Nobz... well, they're Orks. All GKs pack a potentially S5 Storm Bolter as a MINIMUM, and then can upgrade to better-than-assault-cannon special weapons. The power armor squads don't have to choose between heavy and special assault weapons -- psycannons are effectively carry both. The GKs are what Tac squads are supposed to be -- functional hybrids that can both shoot and fight with varying degrees of effectiveness.

Ever since I've seen the Codex it's been my opinion that people would freak out due to the force weapons, but the true power of the list would be in the mass of shooting (S5 Storm Bolters and psycannons).
That last line is very true.

@Nike; real assault units really need to be able to do multiple things. Hit hard (high WS, number of A, strength), hit fast (high I) or taking a beating (good saves, invulnerables). Pick two. Paladins fit nicely into hitting hard (WS5, good number of A) but have to balance I and invulnerable saves (halberds v swords) but have a huge weakness to S8+ which in combat isn't all that uncommon. Everything else in the book generally doesn't have the hitting power (Purifiers are WS4) nor the durability to be a real combat unit and as MathMan said, are going to be shooting units first.

GKs are good in combat but are better at shooting and they have to cross a range (23"-6") where their firepower doesn't actually increase but other armies' do. As you get closer to most armies for example you get in range of rapid fire weapons for double taps and melta. GK are double tapping at 24" so have to cross that 'no man's land' for them to get to combat whilst many other armies will be crossing that distance regardless.
Still, that assault ability should go unused. Grey Knights are not glorified Tau. It`s this ability to throw out 20 S5+ shots then immediately jump in swinging S5 power weapons that makes them what they are.

I suspect the difference in effective range is going to give the Knights a marked advantadge in ensuring they get to charge. Because the Knights fire at full effectiveness at 24", it will be the opponent who is forced to close the distance (they're not going to win a firefight trading bolter pot shots against S5 storm bolters). But once the enemy get within that magic 12", they get one salvo, because the Knights will be in assault range. Move up 6", unload their guns again, then lay into them with the Nemesis Force whatevers. Damned if you do, damned if you don't, essentially.
Do you mean should not go unused? If so I agree but I see too many players currently running their guys forward in a Rhino rush style army. Once your enemy breaches that 12" barrier, that's when you move forward to engage them with shooting and then combat. If you move too early (say when they are at the full 24" or 18") your opponent gets a turn of more effective shooting at you or a potential assault off.

This is what I think Dan means by defensive in this regards but also how GK are primarily a shooting force. They are better at combat than most generalists and some units like GKT, Paladins and Purifiers are pretty good, they just aren't OMGWTFBBQ amazing that many are making them out to be.
I did mean "should not go unused", of course. (doh!)

I guess my point is that the Grey Knights are more of a shooting-and-countercharge army rather than a purely shooty force a la Tau, but I guess we all agree on that and it's just about nomenclature at this point.
About Warp Rift Vs Melta Gun, Warp Rift is AP0 while Melta's are AP1, obviously significantly distorting the stats on actually killing the damn thing. Its easy to make stuff look good when you leave out half the stats...
3 replies · active 729 weeks ago
Warp Rift still comes out on top. It's over 91% of an automatic pen which has 1/3 odds of killing any vehicle, so about 30.6% of killing any vehicle, factoring in the Psychic Test.

The Meltagun has to roll to hit and pen first. It's got 1/2 odds of making a kill once it penetrates, but just hitting on a 3+ means that it would have a 33.3% chance of killing any tank... if meltas auto-penned. If you're shooting at a Land Raider, those odds of a kill are about 21% -- and I did factor in that you might kill it on a glance thanks to AP 1.
AP- gives -1 on the damage chart. Why does no one know this? =(

So odds are you only destroy the vehicle 1/6 of the time with Rift on a damage chart roll, a far cry from a meltagun's 1/2. While Warp Rift might be good for damaging tanks, it's hardly reliable at actually killing them.
Good point, forgot about that.

Still, 15.3% chance of killing a Land Raider or Monolith, that's hardly terrible for five points.
"its 5 pts, for a guaranteed pen, at melta range. You pay more for a meltagun on a Grey Hunter, who can miss, and really needs to be 2" closer to guarantee a pen."

I had noticed that and I was thinking "how much would I be willing to pay for a melta gun in that squad, anyway"? And for five points you get even better; it's almost an auto-pen (upwards of 90% when in range, just gotta make the Psychic Test) *and* it can kill infantry better. 1/3 chance of killing TH/SS Termies, for example, is better odds than what a meltagun shot will get before you even factor in that the template will let you hit more than one guy, and a similar calculation applies for Marines in cover. Heaven have mercy on low I stuff.

Warp Rift is brilliant. In an army with virtually no meltaguns, it's practically a no-brainer.
1 reply · active 729 weeks ago
thornyroses's avatar

thornyroses · 729 weeks ago

Great for taking out slow, but rather pesky T6 'ers like Hive Guard etc. Not that GK realy have to worry about anything Nids bring to the table, but still useful when those buggers are hiding out in cover..
"Rifledreads are awesome, but hey, guess what, nothing new. They were still awesome at str7, just seems like everyone has forgotten that"

Not heard of giving them psy ammon to make them s8 then huh?
2 replies · active 729 weeks ago
I believe he is saying Riflemen Dreads were great before the GK codex came out. S8 only makes them a bit better and they still are great for armies who don't have access to them. The QQ about them isn't necessary.
Citizensmith's avatar

Citizensmith · 729 weeks ago

You realize that was the point he was making then huh?
I completely agree, especially with Lie 2 and Warp Rift (well, Librarian in general).
I see a lot of people taking the Grand Master when he only adds Grand Strategy to the army. Not worth 175 points alone. I wish this thought process was something all players realized. Good article.
2 replies · active less than 1 minute ago
He also brings grenade upgrades that the Libby cannot bring, and Psychic Communion.
Oh! I completely typed that... wrong.

It should have been: I see a lot of people taking the Grand Master when he only adds Grands Strategy to their army.

For example, mech-spammed lists with Coteaz and... a Grand Master. Just seems odd to me. Really, I think you'll want a Terminator unit or a decently large squad to put him in. Having a bunch of 5 man Power Armour squads doesn't really seem to gain much by putting the Grand Master in there, I feel like a Librarian or a Inquisitor would be better.

He is very good if he fits in the list.
Good article Dan, I'm afraid I have to agree on everything... no fun :(

No wait...Warp rift! Meh, comparing it with a Meltagun is a bit 'no' as you aren't as mobile as, for example, a GH in a rhino. Nor do have multiple units which have this threat; making it easier to just avoid Warp Rift. Still a lot of potential though for 5 points heh.
SneakyDan's avatar

SneakyDan · 729 weeks ago

Other thing with warprift - insuranncceeee. Flamer Templates of JOTWW are awesome.

Re rift vs melta - You are correct, no AP1 is somewhat of a hindrance, if you read this blog, i also advocated bloodstrike missiles because they are AP1. However, it still autohits, ignores cover (lol turboboosting eldar tanks) doesnt roll an extra dice for pen (lol monoliths, people still take them right?) and, if used correctly, can hit multiple vehicles, especially if someone is tank shocking you (which, with mech heavy armies vs foot/hybrid GK's, is gonna happen).

MOAR DISCUSSION! s'good.
2 replies · active 677 weeks ago
I'm still waiting for people to realise the potential against castling marines. Two Rhinos rushing forward, two instant pens! If they're castling in the corner while you're deep striking, a lucky strike and good placement of your template could see 2+ tanks getting penetrated! Definitely worth the 5 points.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, didn't really read the rule, this is just an assumption.
If someone is tank shocking you? Well knowing you I'd tanck shock your 170 pt. librarian knowing that you're considering to sacrifice him attempting a fifty-fifty (warp rift) probability of stopping tank.

Considering such a expensive model I'd just move apart from the tank rather than risking it to die, even if that model has a meltagun.
I remember when this blog was "without the emo bitching"
1 reply · active 729 weeks ago
I really think we should embrace the emo bitching. I mean, this article was no where near acceptable on the EBS (Emo Bitching scale).

I think, for the next week, the authors should just vent' in every post they do. Loosely warhammer related or not. Make outrageous claims, bag on their fellow gamers and just generally create a more negatively geared atmosphere.
Warp Rift suffers from the fact that it's an AP- weapon, which drastically reduces the chance of wrecking something.

Really though, they're a midfield defensive shooty army? I hadn't thought of it like that, but what you say makes sense. Does this mean weapon upgrades on purifiers aren't worth it, or are they there to finish things? Hammers are still utility after all.
2 replies · active 729 weeks ago
Weapon upgrades on the Purifiers are still worth it because they are so cheap. 2 points for +2 initiative? Hell yeah! +5 (or 10 for MC) for a Daemonhammer? Hell yeah.

You want to shoot and shoot and shoot and then when you get assaulted smash as much face as you can before you die. The cheap upgrades on the Purifiers allow you to do this for minimal cost (on an 8 man squad the combat upgrades cost less than 10% of the squad for a significant upgrade in capability).

The easiest way to tell that GKs are not assault focused is the lack of decent ++ saves. The 5++ is not particularly good (and is on expensive models) and whilst you can get them to 4++ they are still not very good. Even if you go all out with a Brother-Captain with warding stave for 3 wound 2++ annoyance factor in CC, they still insta-gib to str 8.
If you're dropping shooty options to fit those 2-point Halberds in, you're doing it wrong. Wait and see if you have points left over, then think about close combat upgrades.
While that 3++ on TH/SS Termies is indeed a gold standard, I don't know if not having it means that things aren't good in combat.

Assume 5 GK Terminators with NFS (for a 4++) vs 5 TH/SS Termies. I don't know how the points work out, but assume for the moment that they are equal. WS5 S4 means out of 10 attacks, 3.33 wounds are caused, which means ~1.11 TH/SS terminator dies. In return, 1.66 GK Terminators die. Fairly equal, no? Half a terminator more kills on average. However, this doesn't take into account Hammerhand or any psychic powers the GK terminators may have - if Hammerhand is added in, that goes up to 1.85 TH/SS terminators killed, but Null Zone would bring the TH/SS terminators up to 2.5 kills.

As for survivability outside of combat, it would seem that the 3++ of the TH/SS terminators is superior; however, if the terminators can get any sort of cover (which is not too hard), the Shrouding makes their save just as good against 99% of weapons out there. Yes, it does require a)cover and b) a psychic power, but it is doable.

Then on top of them being nearly as good in both survivability and combat prowess, their shooting far outstrips TH/SS termies (by dint of their not having any). Quite frankly, I really don't think GK Terminators are as bad as people seem to be making them out to be, if supported correctly.
4 replies · active 729 weeks ago
Tratchenberg's avatar

Tratchenberg · 729 weeks ago

GK termies aren't WS5 :( Paladins are the only GK unit with WS5. So before psychic powers you are getting 0.83 wounds through the storm shields.

And then not all the GK termies will have swords. The iniative bump from halberds is generally better as striking before units reduces the damage you take. At I4 you either strike after your opponent or you strike at the same time, either way you end up dead (or with enough casualties that you are no longer effective). So most terminator units are unlikely to have swords, maybe one to try save against token powerfist attacks. So more GK termies die to TH/SS termies if they want to be better against other things.

That said GK termies are probably the most effective unit against TH/SS termies in the codex (ignoring henchmen). Paladins go squish and nothing else has an invulnerable.
Yep, but don't forget that GKT are actually WS4, not 5 (Pallies are 5).

I feel a little jealous of GKT, tbh. Vanilla termies (not assault termies) are pretty bad in comparison.
200pts per squad.

But GK terms are WS4
WIth Hammerhand the GKT are still only killing 1.481 TH/SS (2/3rds hit = 6.666, 2/3rds wound = 4.444, 1/3rd fail save = 1.481).

The main issue is that they might end up being ok in combat, but they are still not a dedicated assault unit. "Supported correctly" they may be better than straight, but they still aren't a dedicated assault unit.
"Get this into your heads people - you are a midfield DEFENSIVE army. "

Disagree. GK have the ability to play either way, as the situation dictates. The only thing they really can't do is hug the backfield due to lack of range.
What is a DCA?
1 reply · active less than 1 minute ago
Death Cult Assassins.
i agree with Desc440 - if playing a shooty army you will probably be able to tool them in CC and thus you need to get in to h2h as fast as possible. Vs a CC army, your objective is to make them wade through your 24" of fire for as long as possible.
Not wanting to start a major rules debate, but how are you arriving at "Scoring Dreadnoughts"? GM makes them score as Troops. The section on scoring says "Troops claim objectives unless they fulfil any of the following criteria..." one of which is "Being a vehicle". That says to me that GM makes Dreadnoughts = Troops, but mentions nothing about removing the "Cannot be a vehicle" stipulation from the BRB. What is the argument in their favour?
4 replies · active 729 weeks ago
There's a stipulation somewhere in the BRB that says that Codex rules superceded the BRB rules. Ergo, Dreads can be scoring.
But it's not overwriting anything, it is granting an extra ability to the unit, and that ability has to follow the rules laid out in the BRB unless specified otherwise. It's like granting Fleet to a Tank - nothing to stop it having the rule, but because it doesn't fulfil the criteria for making use of the rule (being able to run in the shooting phase) then the rule serves no practical purpose.
It is basically overwriting it. It clearly states it can capture objectives like troops. This goes contrary to what the BRB is saying. As codex supercedes BRB, dreads can score.
"Troops can claim objectives, unless they are a vehicle."
"Target unit now counts as a unit that may claim an objective."

These two statements are not incompatible.
>So much utility, and not locked into abilities for a whole tourney, is grand

GK Libbies, like everyone else, have to pick their powers during army list creation, not battle-to-battle.

Very true about being a defensive army- but, of course, it's important to remember that having a defensive STRATEGY doesn't mean you always play defensively. There is a time to go for the throat.

RAW, Dreadnoughts don't score, but it was quite probably the intention that they be able to. We'll see, though.
3 replies · active 729 weeks ago
I agree with puppy... RAW, the Dreads cannot score ("they score AS IF TROOPS", and Troop Dreads such as Death Company Dreads do not score, therefore they score just like them... not at all). Also, it seems unreasonable to allow NDK to be a Heavy Support MC that scores, but not to allow a Dread or Venerable Dread to be a HS or Elite Walker that doesn't score, so I also think it will be FAQ'd that they do score.
The main advantage GK libbies have is that they function differently than other libbies by virute of being able to purchase Psychic Mastery 3 and purchasing powers separately -- you can build a libby that "knows" all the powers and can cast 3/turn. I could be mistaken but I'm pretty sure no other libby works like that.
Eldar Farseers can do that, but yeah. Being able to buy more than two powers is handy.
oh no, please dont assault me with force weapons. i couldnt bear it if you used them on my 6pt orks.
all that dakka, however, is worrying
Sneakydan's avatar

Sneakydan · 729 weeks ago

The libbys functionality comes from being able to chooseore
That two powers for a tourney AP, rather than being locked into the same two for the whole tourney.
Re: psychic mastery three? Not worth the points, ever. 2 powers in your turn, and 2 in your opponents, should be plenty.
Re: scoring dreads- I know what the brb says, I states as much. I also stated that any TO worth a damn would rule in favour of it.
It's like BA Vindis not having templates. If you
Really thought that was how it was meant to work, your a douche :)
Sir_Prometheus's avatar

Sir_Prometheus · 727 weeks ago

One of the few tactics articles I agreed with almost everything you said.

I would say purifiers are assault troops, though. You'e paying 4(6) pts for something.....and it's not the ability to take two psycannons per 5 guys. It's for the extra attacks and cleansing flame.

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