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Monday, May 23, 2011
Blood Angels Codex Review: Part 3: Elites
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Hello again! Another BA post by I, your fateful servant, Desc440. This one will cover the first 3 Elites entries in the codex: Chaplains, Sanguinary Guards and Furioso Dreadnoughts.
Chaplain : Bad
The Reclusiarch’s little brother. While having nearly the same offensive power and giving identical bonuses to his squad, having only 2 wounds is pretty bad for a combat character.
Add this to the fact that you’re cutting into your precious Elites slots to take him, and you’ve got a recipe for fail.
I’m not a big fan of taking more than 1 HQ character in general, but if you must have a Chaplain, I’d seriously consider going for a Reclusiarch in addition to whatever your other HQ choice is. Not only is he more survivable (important for a combat char), but he also unlocks a second Honour Guard, which can be useful in some lists.
If you already have your two HQ slots filled… you may want to reconsider how many points you are dedicating to characters. Remember: boys before toys! Get some more bodies in there!
Sanguinary Guard: Good
I really wasn’t sold on Sang Guard at first, but they eventually won me over. While they fall short of a being an amazing unit, they fill an important role in the BA army which earns them some accolades, especially when made into Troops via Dante. This role is really the ultimate beater unit. They are sturdy and reliable assaulters who will chew through most squads but whimper and fall over to anyone who ignores saves. We'll look at this further.
Let’s get the bad out of the way first: as many profess, they are indeed a little overcosted. Cutting their cost or giving them a 5+ invul would have improved their value tremendously. Speaking of invulnerable saves, they really could have used one. Sang Guard make mincemeat of common troops and some assault units, but anything with mass power weapons is going to make them cry. Same thing happens when confronted by mass AP1/2 shooting when the Guards aren’t in cover. Finally, being locked into small squad sizes puts a certain damper on my enthusiasm for them – but not a major one.
Ok, so what’s there to like about them, then? Well, quite a bit, actually. For one thing, they are the most cost-efficient source of power weapon attacks for Jumper armies. They are also quite resilient to small arms fire thanks to their Artificer Armour, especially when in the presence of a Sanguinary Priest. Sang Guard also have a nifty gun which is good at knocking off some wounds/models out of the unit you are about to charge. Finally, they are Fearless, which whilst bad on large horde units, is much more useful on small crack units. Having a Fearless Troop choice (with Dante) can be very useful to ensure you won’t run like a girl at an inopportune moment.
Let’s talk about options: one Sang Guard (or Honour Guard) in you army can carry the Chapter Banner. This is often a good choice, especially if the squad is joined by characters. Making a choppy assault unit even choppier for a reasonable price is hard to pass up. Sanguinary Guard also have access to Death Masks. These suck. They are awesome when they work, but due to the high leadership levels which are abound in 40k, this is a rare occasion. Had they been really cheap (or already included), I would have been more forgiving of their failings, but they are sadly relatively expensive for what little they provide. Finally, each Guard can switch his gun for a Plasma Pistol or Infernus Pistol and you also have the option to replace the Glaive Encarmine with a Power Fist. I tend to forego the pistols altogether since the Angelus Boltgun is pretty nice and Infernus Pistols have always failed to impress me; I tend to have enough melta elsewhere so that this lack of duality doesn’t become an issue. If you are intent on doing a NippleWing army (I prefer calling it Dante’s Inferno myself), you’re obviously going to have to include at least 2 such pistols per squad. A power fist per squad is also an important upgrade to make sure they don't get bogged down in assaults they cannot win with Dreadnoughts and to help against high T targets.
A quick note on said army: I mentioned in the Dante review that I am not a fan of it. I simply feel that too many Sanguinary Guard units breed in weakness due to overspecialisation. I try to keep a 1:1 Sang Guard to Assault Squad ratio so as to increase the flexibility of my list. This has so far provided good results.
A really important thing to remember about Sanguinary Guard is they excel with Priests around. A bunch of S4/I4 power weapons isn't that scary to a lot of armies but S5/I5 makes a world of difference. They will tear through a lot of units but have a pretty big paper to their mini-rockness in low AP/armor ignoring attacks. Understand this and you'll get better mileage out of Sanguinary Guard.
Furioso: Good
God I love those things. Is there a more badass concept than a great big stonking robot with bigass claws tearing apart swarms of enemies in brutal close combat? I posit that there is not. Australian beer ads.
I think it wouldn’t be inexact to state that due to the different weapon loadouts available to the Furioso, it’s almost as if the variants are completely different engines of death from one another.
My overall favourite is the Blood Talons Furioso. This can quite often tear through a whole squad on its lonesome. The attack generation mechanic is just plain awesome, but is really vulnerable to weapon destroyed results on the damage chart. Also, the sheer destructive power can be a bad thing at times: kill off an entire unit in one go, and you will often find yourself stating down the business end of multiple meltaguns.
My second favourite would be the Librarian Furioso. Brings quite a bit of utility while being far more fearsome in combat than a regular Librarian. Here, the otherwise lacklustre Wings of Sanguinius power really shines. Having a jump libby dread keeping pace behind your Rhinos and Razors is guaranteed to give your opponent a moment of pause or two. To beware though, psychic defenses can slow this advance down considerably though Drop Pods are also an option (Blood Lance drop pods rawr!). The stupid lack of Extra Armour sucks, but it’s not a deal breaker as far as I’m concerned. It’s also got to be said that the libby Furioso ain’t cheap, so you have to really consider if he’s a good fit for your list.
The Frag Cannon Furioso isn’t so hot, but still not bad. Take the cannon and a Magna Grapple for tank hunting. 2 S6 rending shots, 1 meltagun and 1 S8 Magna plus the drag rule can bring something useful to an army list.
The least useful loadout for me is the dual Blood Fists. If you want to use your Furioso for tank killing, use the loadout above, really. The loss of that extra attack is more than offset by what the cannon provides you with.
One thing that is a bit painful about Furiosos: delivering them to your enemy can be problematic. Wing libby dread is not as prone to this (but can be due to psy defence), but for the other types, a 6 inch move is reeeeeeeeally slow inside a BA army. The best method of getting the metal monsters where they need to be is the Storm Raven. That is, however, a costly proposition. You can also pod them, but more often than not, that leaves them considerably isolated, which isn’t conducive to them surviving. In most cases, I will have mine follow behind my wall of transports and hope they survive the enemy’s guns on the way to the fight.
With that, I will end this article as it is starting to get quite long. The next entry will cover both types of Terminators and the biggest fail of a unit in the ‘dex: Techmarines!
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Blood Angels Codex Review: Part 3: Elites
2011-05-23T22:00:00+10:00
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Analysis|Blood Angels|Review|Tactics|
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Bertbos · 723 weeks ago
Karvala · 723 weeks ago
Furioso Dreadnoughts: AV13 front armor makes a huge difference over AV12 for a walker. Being able to headbutt away krak grenades is a very handy ability. Dual blood talons is indeed awesome. Our house record for one game stands at Orks: 0 Furioso: 47
Mattias · 723 weeks ago
And @ reviewer, what makes the Chaplain obsolote is Lemartes, not the Rec. You say bros before bling, yet you suggest a more expensive character and the possibility of five more expensive marines. As many have said before, this review series is sub-par for this blog.
Mattias · 723 weeks ago
Sokhar · 723 weeks ago
TMiles001 41p · 721 weeks ago
jasonwc 61p · 678 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 722 weeks ago
Zjoekov 74p · 723 weeks ago
Mattias · 723 weeks ago
Zjoekov 74p · 723 weeks ago
Mattias · 723 weeks ago
But it is a fair point indeed.
Karvala · 723 weeks ago
Mattias · 723 weeks ago
Deathcult Nihilist · 723 weeks ago
Desc440 · 723 weeks ago
As for the more expensive char + five expensive marine, is that Lemartes + DC? If so, I never suggested that.
Mattias · 723 weeks ago
Desc440 · 723 weeks ago
And to me, the extra cost of the Reclusiarch is warranted if you MUST have a chaplain. I personnaly never run more than one HQ and the only other characters I have are sang priests.
abusepuppy 121p · 722 weeks ago
bully · 723 weeks ago
Deepstriking combi-melta's were quite popular among Stelek-ites.
I wasn't a fan tho ....
Desc440 · 723 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 722 weeks ago
Mahu · 723 weeks ago
So you can move and fleet towards the enemy you don't want to charge, but if you are within 6" of something you do, you just charge that instead.
Of course, I always mitigate DC dreads rage by sticking it in a storm raven.
On the article. Chaplains are not as bad as the article makes them out to be. If you are taking a dual Librarian in Cheap Honor Guard list and want to have a counter attack DC unit, the chaplain is not a bad choice. My rule of thumb is that if I am taking Death Company, I am taking some sort of Chaplain to get the Litanies of Blood benefit. Lemartes is nice, but since Jump Packs are prohibitively expensive, and you further limit the transports to just a storm raven you can embark in, your chaplain choices are kinda limited to the Reclusiarch and the Elite Chaplain. Both have their place, and both can be instakilled just as easily. An Elite Chaplian is cheaper and doesn't take up an HQ slot, and that gives you options in your list building. I would have given him a "Good" rating. Just like Sanguinary Guard, he has his uses.
I think the article is spot on on Sanguinary Guard. You will still have a hard time justifing them in a pure competitive build, however, I personally love them as Dante's Bodyguard. Like the Article says, they are cheap effective Jump Power Weapons, and Dante can deliever his plus 2 inferno pistols from the squad directly on that tank that must die. Then Dante can hit and run them out of unfavorable combats. Fearless is also a big deal, as leadership shenanigans can't effect them and make Dante run, unlike Honor Guard (and yes, that has happened to me before lol ).
Furioso really deserves an "Excellent" rating. I honestly struggle to not include them in almost every list I make. My favorite is a Blood Talons dreadnought in a Strom Raven. I am of the opinion to not overload a storm raven (as that has bite me in the ass more often then not) and a Dreadnought is a very cheap option to toss in there. I also like the dual Librarian Dread / Mephiston army. Sure it is really dependent on powers to be aggressive, but I generally buid reactive shooty lists around them and use them as a counter assault option. I usually take Might of Heroes on the Librarian Dread as well, because I found that makes them very excellent at breaking a combat on the second round. Immobilization results makes me a sad panda (especially when I can do that to myself), but that is the risk to taking them.
Assault Terminators and Sanguinary Priests are by far the best Elites choice, but I comment on them when the Author does.
Desc440 · 723 weeks ago
The thing that knocks Furiosos from excellent to good is the mobility issue I have mentionned. But if you're a SR lover, I guess you could call them excellent.
Mahu · 723 weeks ago
The mobility issues can be negated. Not just the Storm Raven but also the Drop Pod. It is worth to note that we are one of two armies in the entire game that can hold a walker in a vehicle in an assault ramp.
I don't love the Storm Raven, but I do respect that it is another tool. The thing I dislike the most about it is the light AV value compared to it's cost and the amount of fire power the opponent will be throwing at it. But considering it's utility of being able to get a Blood Talons Dreadnought relatively safely to it's destination, it is entirely worth noting that as a way to solve the mobility issues of the dreadnought.
Desc440 · 723 weeks ago
I did make mention of drop pods and ravens, but you can't simply jam those into any list and expect it to work. And Ravens can get shot down before deploying the dread where it needs to go, or it can show up from reserves only on turn 5. You also have to take into account that a more mobile list can just keep dodging the dread (eldar/deldar, for one). So, yes, they are some ways to alleviate the mobility issue, but they are not full proof, and they aren't always appropriate for the list.
Mahu · 722 weeks ago
Actually, yeah. You set the perameters, but in my opinion a "Good" unit, is a unit that supported properly, or is a support element, can appear in a decent competitive list. You gave Dante a "good" ranking which I agree with. He, like the chaplain, will not appear in most super competitive lists, but give him the support he needs and he becomes a good choice.
Like I said, the Chaplain gives you options, and is cheaper then a Reclusiarch. Generally speaking, an unleash rage Librarian will be better in that position anyways, however, the fact that litanies of blood doesn't need a psychic test and you make the unit he is attached to fearless, and death company benefit a lot more from litanies of blood, are all things to consider.
Two uses I see for the Chaplain. As an elite character tooling around with an Assault Squad in Jump Packs making sure they do not run and buffing their combat ability. Or tooling around in a transport with a unit of Death Company. A crazier use is the super Brick of Death, which would be a Terminator Librarian, a Terminator Chaplain, a Terminator Sanguinary Priest, and an Assault Terminator Squad in a Land Raider Crusader. You would want the elite chaplain for the points break.
So considering all of that, I still argue that the chaplain deserves a "Good" rating.
We can talk about the merits of the storm raven, when you get to that.
Desc440 · 722 weeks ago
Super Taak · 722 weeks ago
Mahu · 722 weeks ago
A Land Raider, you melta it to death and assault the passangers. Another dreadnought? You should have plenty of move and fire Lascannons and Melta to take care of it. Most other things take massive casualties to a DC dreadnought in assault.
Also the fleet can be negated as well, if you kill the unit you don't want to charge with other shooting.
I am not saying Rage isn't a downside, but I am say with positioning, presenting multiple threats, and proper support, it can be mitigated.
Sonny · 723 weeks ago
P.S, would love if you could check out my blog :)
Desc440 · 723 weeks ago
dzer0 · 723 weeks ago
If your taking a chaplain it's not because he is a "combat character" (a captain would be cheaper) but because he is a force multiplier that makes his squad far more useful at killing things in close combat. Usually this means he will already be attached to a fairly expensive squad decked out to deal punishment and 30 points for an extra attack and 1 more wound is hardly ever the decisive factor at the end of that combat.
Desc440 · 722 weeks ago
Mattias · 722 weeks ago
He should've been mentioned either here or in the HQ review, as D.C is what most B.A players use their Chaplains for.
Desc440 68p · 722 weeks ago
Corwin · 722 weeks ago
soylent · 723 weeks ago
and thats how i deal with furioso dreads when i ork
Dalinair · 722 weeks ago
Secondly, you are paying terminator prices and getting a model with no inv save, this makes the unit fairly fragile considering the amount of plasma/melta and power weapons around in the game these days, whats the trade off? jump packs, ok thats fairly nice to be able to move 12 but its no good when you are dead.
Thirdly, they are only ws4, which against MEQ (your primary target since its a power weapon squad) means hitting and wounding on 4's and striking at the same time unless you pimp them with a priest.
Finally, as they are the only fully power weapon squad in the BA army (unless you pimp a vet squad or something) you are painting a bullseye on their heads. For about 35 points more roughly you can have a vanguard vet squad with 5 power weapons and 5 more attacks, granted you cant take a priest in it but since it can assault from deep strike and doesn't have to spend a turn getting shot at after it flies in, I think its much better.
The Sang guard has only one roll in my opinion, as a bit of fun if you are trying a Dante list. Considering that I also think dante is utterly terrible as well (far too many points for what he gives you), I'm quite happy in the knowledge that my pack of sang guard simply got butchered into conversions for regular assault marines.
Dalinair · 722 weeks ago
Desc440 · 722 weeks ago
Desc440 · 722 weeks ago
-Cost: Ya, they probably are a little overcosted (as mentionned in the review), but not to the point where the become bad (like say, Vanilla Vanguards).
-WS4 hurts, but is partly made up my the mastercrafted Glaives. And you really should have a Priest with them, as they benefit tremendously from his presence. I'd say it's nigh mandatory to have one.
-Their vulnerability to low AP weapons can be lessened by covering troops or a Shield libby, and their vulnerability to Power Weapons by ensuring your get the charge off (within range of a Priest).
All in all, the Sang Guard are not an easy unit to employ, but they do work.
abusepuppy 121p · 722 weeks ago
SG utilize cover and striking before enemies thanks to I5 to mitigate their fragility. Against non-AP2 guns, they are absurdly hard to hurt when a Priest is nearby.
If you aren't running Priests, you're retarded. Master-Craft is, numerically speaking, slightly better than WS5 would be, and with S5 I5 and MC, you are doing a LOT of wounds to most enemies. (GK will wreck you, but they're your worse enemy, so no surprise there.)
VV kitted with all PWs is a pretty mediocre squad. You complain about survivability and then posit a bunch of 3+ save guys with no invulns? Yeah, bad plan. SG shouldn't be deep striking in the first place, that's just bad play. The units are totally different and don't even begin to serve the same roles.
I think you're way off base with Dante- is he "worth" 225 pts? No, certainly not, but at 1850/2000 the investment is less of a problem and having an army of 2+ saves becomes a much stronger choice. Whatever you may say about the prevalence of AP2/1 guns, no one has THAT many of them. Backed by missile Devs they are a pretty threatening force.
Zjoekov 74p · 722 weeks ago
They are often looked upon as 'flying terminators', however they lost all the things which makes Terminators good:
-No invulnerable saves whatsoever. This is big as they can't really jump in and out from terrain either. Well they can but you risk losing 40 point models then, that hurts.
-Their shooting is mediocre, Angelus boltguns are not stormbolters and Infernus pistols are really shortranged. No Cyclone either.
-Their close combat then? Do people even realise that a MC Weapon is worse than getting 1 attack from having 2 CCW's? Dual Lightning Claws is superior in each and every way.
You end up with some sort of gimped hybrid between Termies and ASM.
You also say that they are very resistant to small arms fire. Oh rly? They cost 40 points a model, ASM cost 18 points a model. They are relatively LESS survivable against small arms fire. They fair better against Ap3, but die hard to anything ignoring their saves.
They have to pay for a Fist too. Small squad size means you'll be taking saves on your Fists/Pistol guys all the time. Same goes for any Priests you let them join: Be prepared to take saves on your Priest a lot.
Do they do their job sometimes? Sure, most stuff dies when you get to charge with a full squad with Priest support. Are they competitive? No, these guys are so short ranged and have really particular strenghts and weaknesses that they just aren't a competitive choice for allcomers lists. Main annoyance: Imperial Guard, they don't care shit about your Sangguard. Tau goes lol too and so does Tyranids. (Stealers, Boneswords lash whips units, even Trygons are dangerous)
And yes, I actually play with a Sangguard army myself (not even pure) and I love them. I also win games with them, easily. But, I do recognize what causes them to perform well for me: My oppenent lacking with his list or skill and not because Sanguinary Guard are good units.
Another odd thing: You mention the Frag Cannon as anti-tank weapon. 2 rending shots with S6 (although autohitting and ignoring cover), that's not exactly reliable is it? On top of that (the real killer) it has Ap -.
That's not an anti-tank weapon, that's an anti-infantry weapon. Very decent against anything (including Meq) in cover.
Chaplain section feels incomplete. You could (read: should) have mentioned here at least that they give Re-rolls to hit and to wound for Death Company. Ya, Reclusiarch does this too, but at 30 points more expensive.
Main difference isn't the 2 wounds versus 3 btw, it's the Initiative 5. This is less of a problem when you put him with Death Company though as they strike at I5.
Overall this is the only real use for Chaplains: Putting them with Death Company, also as they dont benefit from a Priest. (they got FC and FnP already ofc)
Does this make him good? No, not really. That's more fault of DC though, rage tries to seriously kill that unit.
Desc440 68p · 722 weeks ago
-They are relatively less resistant, but in absolute terms, they are more resistant. And ASM don't come with power weapons or angelus boltguns.
-Small squad size I made mention of in the review.
-I didn't mean to say that Frag Cannon is a pure AT weapon, just that if you're going to go tank hunting with a Furioso, it's a better option than having an extra CC attack and a stormbolter. I guess I should have been more explicit.
-I mentioned the rerolls for chappies in the reclusiarch review. I felt it would have been a litte redundant to say it again. Fair point about the initiative difference, that should have been mentionned.
Zjoekov 74p · 722 weeks ago
About the Sanguinary Guard: I wasn't only directly replying to you, I simply stated why I think giving them the 'good' label is simply wrong. Good on 3++ in reviews means a good unit for competitive play.
You dont reply to half of my points so I assume you agree with them.
More resistant in absolute terms? Sure, but that's not relevant now is it? That's like saying in a review that a Land Raiders is more resistant to melta compared to most other vehicles... also true, but how relevant is it?
And still disagree with the Frag Cannon, not mentioning them as anti-infantry (2 rending templates honestly isn't half bad) while you do mention them as anti-tank is odd.
You miss my point on what I said on the chaplains: Their most obvious role is joining Death Company, more so than a Reclusiarch. (I'd say a regular chappy is more efficient for this, simply as it's 30 points cheap while giving them the same buffs) Therefore its worth mentioning.
All in my opinion ofc.
Desc440 68p · 722 weeks ago
-But more resistant in absolute terms is very relevant. You want your your power weapon wielding crazies to be as resilient as possible. If assault squads also had power weapons and whatnot, obviously then their increased survivability on a direct one on one comparison would mean much less.
-Frag Cannons are good anti-infantry, sure, but twin Blood Talons are flat out better in most instances. By mentioning that you can use the cannon in a sorta anti-tank use, it gives the loadout a role where it's going to be superior to twin claws. How often one would want to do that is up to the reader.
-Fair point about the chaplain, maybe Kirby would be kind enough to inser that in somehow.
Kirby 118p · 722 weeks ago
The question then becomes does this make them good overall or just in context of the codex and I'd agree they aren't 'good' but rather average. Again though, if you need a beater type unit SG will be pretty efficient for a Jump Pack based unit.
Zjoekov 74p · 722 weeks ago
Let's face it: Jumper armies are not that good, Sanguinary Guard at best helps in making some bad matchups a little less bad... While creating more problems by doing that. (as I said, many armies dont care about Sanguinary Guard at the least) So even in context of the codex/list type, I'd still not qualify them as good.
Kirby 118p · 722 weeks ago
*thinks of a comparison of viability*
...
Fuck it. 160 points for 5 and a 5++/WS5 k? lol
Zjoekov 74p · 722 weeks ago
If you choose your units based on a specific set of qualities then you prevent any comparisons with other units, as probably no other unit has those same qualities. What is relevant is this: A. Do you need the job the unit does? B. Does it do the job efficiënt enough?
If B fails then it's still not worth to take the unit, even though the job needs to be full filled. Example: Chaos Bikers fulfill a much needed job for Chaos, yet they aren't taken because they are simply too damn inneficient for it.
This is of course not meant for you Will, I'm just explaining myself here =P
In the end what most people dont seem to understand is this: They are specialist unit in essence, while not being properly priced or equipped for that. This makes them an imbalanced unit, good against some armies, while being rather useless against other armies.
Kirby 118p · 722 weeks ago
But that last line saved you =D.
Zjoekov 74p · 722 weeks ago
And now you can't edit yours as I replied haha.
Gonna look up the meaning of the word 'obtuse' ^^
Edit: Oh, it's not a nice word you meanie.
Kirby 118p · 722 weeks ago