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Wednesday, May 25, 2011

Citadel finecast? DRAIGOOOOOOOOOOOOO!


I'm holding in my hand some of the 'new' Citadel finecast miniatures, and they're just as meh as expected.
They're basically the exact same metal models we all loved to hate, but in a lighter, brittler material.

As you can all clearly see, the 'hip' thing is collectible clamshell packaging, much like what certain other companies do.

"So what're the models like?" Complete clones of the metals they're replacing, but on little sprues. If you've ever bought a forgeworld kit, you know the deal.
Lots of flash, lots of 'bonus' resin, sometimes tiny bubbles, the worst smell ever, and sprues that aren't always fully formed (the sprue itself, not the components on it).

That's all expected, however. What's not expected is the lack of mould release. Yes, you can actually handle finecast without scrubbing. Likely, GW got some very cheap labor to pre-scrub before boxing.


Lord DRAIGO, master of manliness.
Sprue, base, loose arm. No release agent, same funky smell as other resin, flash everywhere, and in general, greatly beyond forgeworld's capabilities. Hmm, it's almost like GW took a hint from privateer press, but used their far superior and larger operation to improve on things.
After some cutting and filing, I can conclude that this is absolutely nothing like the junk forgeworld uses (won't create tons of lethal dust), but you should still sit in a ventilated area when you work with it. Quality-wise, it's closer to warmahordes resin, but not as fragile.



As for details, and the claim that this magical resin holds them better. Eh, it's the same thing you bought in metal. Virtually identical, if not identical for real. New moulds might eventually be better, but old metals cast in resin aren't gonna look any worse or better than their heavier counterparts, as the pics above prove.

Main drawback: if you drop a metal model, the paint chips. You drop a resin model, it's gonna shatter or snap.

That's really all there's to it. Oh, and the insane price.

Edit: judging from the mass return of bad casts, the Draigo above is more an exception than the norm. Large majority of models are nowhere near this uhmmm, 'completely' cast, and even my Draigo had excessive flash all over, as you can clearly see.

If I had to pick, I'd go ebay for a metal version of whatever model you're looking for. This 'new and awesome' resin ranges from meh to terrible.

Comments (94)

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my question is what type of glue works on it. just superglue?
1 reply · active 722 weeks ago
Superglue is recommended.
I'm gonna miss the plastic glue...

So, exactly what's gonna be the retail price for this lad?
7 replies · active 722 weeks ago
180-200 swedish or so. That translates into 'too rich for my blood' in dollars.
Metal Draigo was 160, for comparison - which was already a joke.
Jesus Kristus du skämtar?

And in English:
Jesus Christ you're joking?
vad glad att du lever i en stabi eknomi iallfall ^_^

in english:
just be happy that you live in a country with stable economy ^_^
100% allvar.
Dom ska tydligen vara direct-only också, men vi får se. Alla butiker borde få in i alla fal en sändning innan det händer.
Svenska priser är helt efterblivna, jag är glad att vi har maelstrom och wayland. Sparar minst 33% per köp.

English:
Swedish pricing is retarded, I'm happy we've got maelstrom and wayland. Saves at least 33% per purchase.

I understand why people are so miffed about GW's new "rules". Let's hope it's illegal.
hänger på fantasia i uppsala och dom fick in 120 lådor så. några tau och hel bund orker ska inhandlas. får vi se vad skiten är gjord av
You were using plastic glue on metal models?
all that flash is ghastly - for the price id expect that to be at least removed no wonder its in a box and not in a blister.
2 replies · active 722 weeks ago
Agreed, the flash is RIDICULOUS for the price. I highly doubt I will buy a "finecast" unless there's absolutely no way to convert an alternate. I hate working with resin and nothing about this stuff makes me believe it will be any better than anyone else's... minus the release agent.
does it come in more parts, i wont mind so much if the a little more pose able, or for easier conversions
1 reply · active 722 weeks ago
No change over the old metals.
Just that the parts are on a sprue.
I never really minded the extra weight of the metal models, and I dislike the brittleness factor of resin, so I guess that GW just lost another direct customer as Ebay is going to become a greater part of my hobby.
I think most people would have preferred cheapcast.
2 replies · active 722 weeks ago
LEGION3000's avatar

LEGION3000 · 722 weeks ago

I greatly prefer cheapcast VS. finecost

For the record I started with metal models and I prefer them to resin with a passion. Just wait till the first time someone drops their drago on his sword and it snaps off RIGHT ACROSS THE BLADE instead of at the joint like a metal one would. This is because the super glue you are using is actually structurally stronger than the resin.
You seem to be confusing resin for glass or porcelain, neither of which it is. Also, the new stuff is a hybrid of plastic and resin, which would make it more durable.
I think that the change to resin is good, because I hate metal models with a passion. However I am rapidly getting tired of being force fed "This new substance is MANNA FROM HEAVEN, BITCHES!" by every member of GW I come into contact with.

Eventually they'll hit ebay and we can see how paint strippers work on them, and absolutely nothing else will change. Shrug.
1 reply · active 722 weeks ago
Had a play around with a couple of the new figures today, quite pleased. I hate painting metal, probably due to the weight of them. Also, they chip like a bugger (and I'm pretty thorough when it comes to keeping my stuff nice).

Looking forward to seeing what new sculpts are like in the future.
LEGION3000's avatar

LEGION3000 · 722 weeks ago

This is because there is a plastic compound mixed in with the resin to make it stronger vs plain resin. It also "hopefully" is supposed to make it less airborne when filing and working it. But the downside is it can melt if heated up. Texas car temps routinely hit 120+ as anyone knows that has a kid that left a crayon in there.
Simple solution: don't leave it in your damn car! :P
Or don't live in Texas? :P
There is if you make an account. Apparently twitter accounts on here don't allow it.
The model's details seem a bit crisper than on a metal model. I'm hoping the potential of the new medium shows in new models that are designed for the level of detail you can do with resin. I hope resin models aren't any harder to hack apart for conversion than metal models. I'm afraid the brittleness will mean parts will crumble off or snap when I want to saw a piece (like an arm) off.

Overall though, I am not too happy about this change. I've dealt with a few Forge World pieces and all my experiences with them have been negative due to excessive bubbles in the models and a much higher time commitment to getting the models ready for painting compared to plastic or metal.
2 replies · active 722 weeks ago
Being resin, the prep-time will be about the same and if the amount of release agent they use at FW or even on their metal models to begin with is any indication, they will need a serious scrubbing. The resin will be a difference as you said, in terms of crispness. If you went into you case and pulled out all your metal models, you would notice that the edges that are supposed to be hard are actually kind of round. On the resin models, they will be neat, hard edges.

I for one am happy for the switch for the easy conversions, but unhappy that some things are going to break a little easier and might melt - but I will get over that for the bonuses. What I don't like is the price hike when the reason they were getting out of metal was due to the cost and often their company line for increased blister prices was the world wide cost of metal.
Conversion ease is one of the biggest reasons I welcome this change; I try to avoid fielding "special cahracters" as they are, I try to do some sort of work to make them my own, and this will make things a great deal easier on us conversionists. Bring it on, I say!
Any health and safety details on the pack? I am also interested in the drop on a hard floor test for these models, it does happen!
3 replies · active 722 weeks ago
No health and safety on the box, except for the usual 'do not give to kids aged X,' and 'cut away from yourself with sharp tools.'
If you drop these, you're gonna have to repair the parts before you put the model back together. It's not like plastic or metal, at all.
That is the main thing that puts me off. With a 3 year old, let alone clumsy players, I know my figures are going to hit the ground at some point. I really do not want something that is going to shatter like porcelain.
Resin =/ = porcelain. It's more prone to bounce than shatter like a metal model would, especially if you take a moment to pin it. Even if it DOES break, superglue adheres to resin FAR better than metal due to the fact resin is slightly porous. You won't need to get the pin vice out every time your Space Marine Captain takes a 1/1-inch drop or someone's model touches the Avatar of Khaine's arm.
I'm quite glad to know it's not the same stuff that ForgeWorld uses.
2 replies · active 722 weeks ago
VinsKlortho's avatar

VinsKlortho · 722 weeks ago

I'm always torn on Forgeworld. On one hand I love their models. On the other hand I really love not having lung cancer.
Try using a knife instead of a file then. Works for me.
Obviously these models are going to be complete clones of the metal versions, and GW never claimed that they would. The difference will be weight, ease of assembly and sharper angles and details. The sword is a good example. The lines are much crisper and well defined. As has been stated in the comments here, issues will arise with resin having to do with resin being more sensitive to temperatures (resin melts in heat, sometimes even direct sunlight and gets even more brittle and prone to snapping in two in the cold.) What this means is, never ever leave your figures on a window seal, outdoor games are out of the bag and don't leave your army in your car.

I don't think resin will solve the issue of mold lines and air bubbles. Considering that you're going to pay a premium for these figures, never hesitate to call GW customer service if you get models with any bubbles or imperfections to demand a replacement.

Another piece of advice, be careful how you handle these models. That sword on Draigo has it's days numbered...

Despite my rather negative response here, I am glad for the switch. Metal's cons far outweigh any of the disadvantages of resin models.
1 reply · active 722 weeks ago
I just wish they'd spent that money on making plastic even better.
But perhaps they have reached the ceiling for current technology in crisp plastic edges?

Metal isn't good, but is resin+price increase actually much better?

Its like petrol-electirc cars, yeah they burn less fuel, but the battery pollution is immense and so the net-gain for not polluting is much less than the reduction in petrol consumption would have you believe.
Ever heard of Simple Green or Purple Power? Check out the automotive section of your nearest Wal-Mart.
It looks good. Well, flash aside.

I just think it's funny that Draigo's title in German is "Hochmeister". Is that juvenile?
1 reply · active 722 weeks ago
Bloodknight's avatar

Bloodknight · 722 weeks ago

No, it's not. Hochmeister is - in the real world - the title of the boss of the Teutonic Order or Deutscher Orden. Nothing juvenile about it, just a knight's title, meaning High Master.
Excuse the language, but the finecast is pure bullshit.
Glue doesn't stick properly to it, dropping the shield put a chip in the point, details are all studded with little bits of excess resin, and the slots that you'd normally rely on to fit pieces properly are horribly overfilled, so have to be carefully carved into shape. Material's so soft and brittle, it offers no resistance. Unless you've got blade mastery on par with a jedi, you WILL ruin parts of the model.

If this is how 'finecast' is gonna be, GW just signed its own death warrant.
2 replies · active 722 weeks ago
Number of people surprised that resin models actually act like...er...resin models?

....not I.
I, for one, welcome our new resin overlords.

I'm going to reserve comment until I have had my hands on a model and have had a chance to work on it. I'm sorry to hear that your experience is negative, though. I'm kind of looking forward to anything other than the beating that is metal models.
LEGION3000's avatar

LEGION3000 · 722 weeks ago

Some overpriced models, whole new set of problems. Resin is inferior in every way except crispness when making models of this scale. just look how crisp all those shattered chunks of model are the first time it falls off the table. Oh yeah and paint likes to rub off resin making them harder to handle while painting until sealed.
1 reply · active 722 weeks ago
Um...aint rubs off metal FAR easier than it does resin, unless you didn't take a moment to wash your resin. And resin models bounce as opposed to metal models which also bounce-into lots of little pieces. And should a resin part break, well...super glue LOVES resin, not so much with metal.
Like I said below, people will thank GW once the bigger models get switched from metal to resin.
I don't know whether this is that more flexible sort of stuff that PP uses or if it's closer to FW or even Spartan's resin. So how it will act depends greatly on that formulation
I'd forgotten I had a wordpress account.

Don't forget those handy Chinese copies on ebay, if they're metal they're better. :)
2 replies · active 722 weeks ago
Except for the lead content, which is basically what my entire newly acquired rogue trader era metal marine army is. Hmmm Taak with Lead Poisoning, i wonder if I'll make more sense then...
Just don't suck on them.

Good advice for anything really.
All eldar aspect warrior packs will be horrible henceforth.
2 replies · active 722 weeks ago
"All eldar aspect warrior packs will be lighter, less prone to paint chipping and breaking when dropped or knocked over, and easier to glue together henceforth."

Fixed! :D
Also 25% more expensive.
Resin models are for the true hobbiests I guess =P The ones who never drop their stuff, the ones who rarely play tourneys where you need to quickly get your models to another place, the ones who don't mind spending time making model parts 'smooth' when assembling them etc etc.

Trollings aside, I wont judge before seeing it myself. It's not like I really liked metal models, they dropped more often because of their weight and I don't like painting them either....

Maybe its just a matter of getting used to it, people are opposed to change in general, so I wouldn't pay too much attention to the 'moanings' of people at the moment. If people still complain in about 6 months then something might be wrong though ^^

I for one am pretty enthousiastic, I rarely drop models I don't want to drop and it's very annoying when metal models dont fit properly as that's much more of a bitch to make changes to. (yes I drop my plastic models relatively more often as I know I don't have to be carefull with them)
3 replies · active 722 weeks ago
Um, I'd rather drop a resin model than a metal one.

Dropped resin model: "Dang it! I'll just glue that bit back on after the game" or "One sec, lemmie straighten this sword"

Dropped metal model: "FUUUUUUCK! Now I need to get my drill and some paperclips and a file...where'd that gun go-DAMN IT I JUST GLUED THAT ARM ON!"

Don't even get me started on Broadsides.
Also, as for smoothing out parts, resin >>>>> metal in that regard. With resin you just need a hobby knife and/or a file. With metal you need to get the damn dremel out.
GW models are good enough that I've never needed to use more than a hobby knife or a file.
So shit really.
abortedsoul's avatar

abortedsoul · 722 weeks ago

They change from metal- always thought it would be a smart move. Ditching metal, I thought, would cause them to lower costs and deliver those savings to their customers! They... what? Wait, these are *more* expensive then the metal ones?

FROWNY FACE GW. MAJOR FROWNY FACE.

Your customers wouldn't be complaining about your shit all the time if you were doing it right.

-5 cool points for GW. Warmahordes is looking mighty delicious right about now.
Ehh, price hike is a price hike. It just so happens to come at the same time as the resin stuff. Looks to me like the two are effectively unrelated, but GW is trying to pretend that these 'all-new resin models' are worth more than the metal equivalents to 'justify' the price hike to their customers.

As for the resin itself - gonna wait until I actually work with it before passing judgement, but I suspect in the end it'll have as many pros and cons as metal does; just different ones.
1 reply · active 722 weeks ago
GW needs to learn to space these announcements out, rather than pulling the 1-2-3 combo that drove the internet into a frothing rage.
Marcin Ciszewicz's avatar

Marcin Ciszewicz · 722 weeks ago

Allow me to say, that once again, Games Workshop has dropped the ball as far as their manufacturing is concerned. Their plastics are of very inferior quality when compared to kits released by scale model kit manufacturers, and not only Asian ones - if you do not believe me, unpack one of the new Miniart's Valentines. Now, their resin, it seems, is nothing to write home either, despite all the hype. Couldn't they outsource to someone who is actually in the business for some time, like the Czechs, for instance? I am sure neither CMK, nor Real Model would mind getting a contract like that, and I am sure the end result would be much better.
3 replies · active 722 weeks ago
Really? GW's latest marine-plastic kits are far more detailed than anything I have ever seen from a "real" company. I can take supposedly crappy plastic over flat surfaces.
Marcin Ciszewicz's avatar

Marcin Ciszewicz · 722 weeks ago

Despite the scale difference, I would suggest you take a look at Generation 2 figure kits from Dragon Models Limited. Or Ukrainian kits from MasterBox. Games Workshop plastics are light years behind the slide molding goodness.
Really? I was way more impressed with Dragon's stuff than I thought I would be. And way more impressed with what they can do.
I like the "FROWNY FACE" comment. :)
Inquisitor Ixe's avatar

Inquisitor Ixe · 722 weeks ago

Honestly, pewter is the worst thing ever--worst to work with, and worst to assemble, and every time you drop it, SNAP! Even if the new models are identical, but in resin, it's an improvement. At least you can glue the parts. I suspect that new sculpts will have more detail as well though.
3 replies · active 722 weeks ago
InfinitysEnd's avatar

InfinitysEnd · 722 weeks ago

Im waiting for their first actual releases with this stuff to see if it's any better. recasting metal scuplts in resin isnt going to take advantage of what resin can give you. whether or the not the price will decrease after theyve offset their initial outlay as well will be interesting to see (but unlikely).
Exactly; with this new medium, the sculptors will have more freedom and new methods they might not have thought of before, making miniatures unlike anyone else. You know, kinda like they did already. :P
Guestivus's avatar

Guestivus · 722 weeks ago

If by 'unlike' you mean 'has skulls all over it' then yes.

I'm glad that you're sticking up for the sky not falling because of resin, but GW until recently didn't hold a candle to Rackham's better metal, for one example.
All I got force fed at GW was that the finecast are far more detailed, lighter, and far, far easier to assemble meaning you can paint them and have them ready to game with faster. The emphasis on getting the model ready for the tabletop faster was such that i wanted to punch employees in the face. You can BS to a 12 year old, you can't tpo me or most of teh internetz. What's so hard about take out of packet trim off slotta base tab, stick in slotta base, oh look I can game instantly who cares about not cleaning it up. Prettying it up is a shit excuse, and with all the negativity on resin being shouted about here...
3 replies · active 722 weeks ago
Most resin hate is just regurgitated heresay by people who've never even tried working with Resin. I've worked with a number of Forgeworld models, and I for one welcome resin models that can be bent back into shape adn converted more easily then metal ones. People will thank GW for the change once they start making the bigger models or ones that go on flying bases in resin instead of metal.
Not an Alias's avatar

Not an Alias · 722 weeks ago

Jesus, Kepora, do you work for GW?
Of course he does. You can't sustain that level of blind positivity if you aren't paid to do so.
Regarding the Forgeworld-Resin, there is a new guide on their site that states:

"Dust Mask
The resin that we use has no inherent health risks, but we do recommend a dust mask if you are filing or sanding – as with any fine substance, resin dust can be an irritant."
(http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/R/resintips.pdf)

Although it is still not to be taken lightly, it still sounds better than all those rumors about toxicity (although those can be blamed on FW - they should've put a guide/statement/FAQ about their resin online when they started the company).
6 replies · active 721 weeks ago
That's a lie, and everybody who's worked with miniatures will tell you this.
Always wear a mask, always work in a ventilated area, and take breaks. Resin is like aluminum dust. It's very dangerous to your lungs.
Make sure the mask is approved for preventing fine particles of toxic dust
The disposable white ones are labelled as unsuitable for such use.
I assume that the classing is international, but perhaps not:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respirator

We used p3 for when we worked with fibreglass. Which takes out 99.95% of airborne particles.

If you buy el cheapo ones, you might well pay the cost later in life.... just sayin'
I do believe that companies in general go far to play down eventual risks but outright lying?

Anyways, you guys are right of course - better safe than sorry.
Well I wasn't saying GW was lying, but when you look at, say, tobacco companies previously saying cigarettes don't cause cancer, and then later that passive smoking wasn't harmful, because you couldn't unequivocally prove it, it makes it hard to trust them - companies.

Then when you see GW's Southern Hemisphere pricing, the price increase for finecaste over metals, etc. it shows that GW is not some warm fuzzy company, just because their product is meant to be enjoyed in a warm social setting.

As you say, better to be protected against no threat than to not be protected against a threat.

:)
Antebellum's avatar

Antebellum · 721 weeks ago

But resin dust is better for you then pewter dust!

Oh wait ... I'm not Kepora. Sorry. He didn't reply to this one and I thought it was weird without someone sticking up for resin.

I for one am not buying any GW for at least the month of June, if not longer.
Um...resin doesn't realyl shatter when ya drop it; even if it does, it's easier to glue back together than metal parts. The lighter weight would be better for gaming as well, easier to balance on precarious edges and easier on terrain. Also, I'll take cutting/filing resin ove rmetal any day-at least you can make decent progress with resin without cutting your damn fingers open, or getting blisters from the heat dremeling it can produce.
3 replies · active 722 weeks ago
20 comments later...

My gardening is great lately.
Yeah metal is poor, but plastic > resin for all things barring the detail. I wish that was what they spent their dollars on :)
Shattered stuff is not easy to glue. I'd much rather something broke at a join than is shattered. Break at a join, I have a couple of pieces, shattered... who knows how many pieces I have.

Based off Forge Worlds crappy resin.... no, I'd take metal any damn day of the week.
I added a poll on my little blog (http://twilight40k.blogspot.com) for people to log the quality of their finecasts.
Well I've posted a video of me dropping my lovely Huron Blackheart finecast model from 1.2m high until it breaks... it took 3 tries and the axe neatly broke off without chipping. I was able to glue it back and the joint can't be noticed anymore.

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