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"Hi Kirby,
After the comments I made in response to the GK Codex Review article on Elites I thought I should back up my claims with a competitive list using Coteaz and conversion beamers. I remember you did a post a while back with five beamers but I wanted to build a balanced list that uses beamers as a force multiplier to coax your opponent into midfield (where GK want them to be) rather than focussing on them as a core capability.
My initial idea was to take cheap Henchmen squads of basic Warriors to simply use as ablative wounds for the Techmarines. I've decided that, while viable, a better list can be made by taking full-sized GKSS units and combat-squadding half of them into bodyguards for the beamers:
Coteaz [100]
Techmarine, conversion beamer [110]
Techmarine, conversion beamer [110]
5x Purifiers, 2x psycannon, 1x MC hammer, Razorback, psybolt ammo [200]
10x GKSS, 2x psycannon, 1x hammer, Razorback, psybolt ammo [280]
10x GKSS, 2x psycannon, 1x hammer, Razorback, psybolt ammo [280]
5x GKSS, 1x psycannon, 1x hammer, Razorback, psybolt ammo [170]
5x GKSS, 1x psycannon, 1x hammer, Razorback, psybolt ammo [170]
3x MM Servitor, 2x Jokaero, 5x Warriors, Chimera [175]
Dreadnought, 2x autocannon, psybolt ammo [135]
Dreadnought, 2x autocannon, psybolt ammo [135]
Dreadnought, 2x autocannon, psybolt ammo [135]
2000 pts
The two 10-man GKSS split into combat squads with the psycannons and hammer going into the Razorback and the other five normal guys loiter in backfield Bolstered Defences cover with an attached Techmarine. Get the beamer squads into the best firing positions available near the extreme corners of your deployment zone and you then have max-power conversion beamer shots to punish any units your opponent tries to hold back outside of your 24" optimum kill-box.
The rest of the army has five Psybacks and a Chimera pushing up into midfield with a total of eight psycannons, six multilaser/psybolters, five multimeltas and up to three heavy flamers. The advancing elements are supported by three Psyflemen and two beamers in backfield. A good mixture of suppression fire, true anti-tank and anti-infantry firepower spread across the short, medium and long range brackets. The six midfield squads each have a hammer as an assault deterrent (plus Sanctuary projected from a Chimera hull) and you can cover most of the table with Warp Quake bubbles if you are so inclined.
The only thing missing from this list is a Librarian for a Hood and Shrouding but I think you can live without it.
Charlie"
Charlie, the list looks good though I would probably lean towards your initial idea of Acolyte bodyguards for the Beamers. Even chucking in a Jokaero or two into each squad is going to give you some extra firepower to throw downfield with the Beamer shots and you're not sacrificing MEQ bodys in the backfield. This allows you more stormbolter shots and assault capacity when necessary but leaves your backfield a bit more vulnerable if anything breaks through.
You could even still combat squad them and put them into the transports of the Henchmen squads but that is going to be quite tight on points. I might try running around with this concept just to see if you can get more heavy weapons into the army (Jokaeros) whilst still running Coteaz upfield. You'll probably lose some Psycannons but your backfield will have more bodies and more output.
Food for thought and let's see what everyone else thinks.
Logging you in...
deleted2725480 36p · 719 weeks ago
EDIT: Fail. I just remembered why I didn't just do that in the first place; you run out of FOC slots. You would need to drop one of the Razorknight squads to fit in the extra Henchmen and that leaves you with 170 pts spare. I would use that to bump up the Purifier squad to 10-man and swap their Razor for a Rhino, which costs us two multilasers, balancing the two gained from the extra Chimeras. I don't know what to do with the remaining 60 pts given we only have 1 HQ and 3 FA slots open; maybe an Inquisitor with some toys?
Random · 719 weeks ago
Second, if you're going to spend the points to give 10 man squads psybolt ammo, using them as ablative wounds for techmarines is a waste. You'd be better off with acolytes or anything as those squads should be shooting at tanks (it's why you spent >100 points on a 1 wound model).
Third consider rhinos to bunker the beamers and give cover to your psyflemen. Joker+ 2 acolytes+ rhino = 83 points of scoring harassment that can't be stunned and doesn't rely on ruins to keep itself alive. It also plinks away with 2 long range anti tank shots per turn.
Lastly, give your servitor squad's acolytes some meltaguns so they aren't useless if their chimera gets shot in the side and stunned. This is also why you don't want to put beamers into chimeras, shaking your long range anti tank isn't good.
deleted2725480 36p · 719 weeks ago
Good point on giving a Beamer to an Inquisitor; I would consider using the spare points to try and fit one in to bring the total up to 3, but I wouldn't convert one of the Techmarines. The Techmarines bring 3++ cover saves which goes a fair way towards the viability of backfield Beamers.
Also a good point on firing out of Rhinos instead of Chimeras, but a Rhino can still be shaken/stunned sometimes (Fortitude is not automatic), AV12 is more resilient than AV11, and Chimeras bring heavy weapons that Rhinos do not. If you're really concerned about the Beamer bunkers being suppressed at range then just run the Techmarine squad on foot in 3++ cover (that's why we're taking more than the bare minimum number of Warriors).
Fitting a few meltaguns into the midfield Henchmen squad is certainly a luxury worth taking if the points are available but I don't consider it essential; if their Chimera gets shaken/stunned then you don't always want to jump out and suicide melta something, you can just wait a turn and resume shooting. The Chimera side AV should be well screened by all those Razors around anyway.
Simon · 719 weeks ago
Potentially it is a good use of points to upgrade the list, or to compliment the list, but so to are alot of other options in the codex. As far as a "competitive list" goes, I think most of the heavy lifting is done with the above 'Razorback, Rifleman, Coteaz' combination, and pretty much anything attached to that will also be viable. Any unit can in essence be competitively viable when attached to a competitively viable list.
I would argue that few players will be coaxed into mid field with the introduction of conversion beamers than would normally be with out them. Let us consider a competent player, one who understands the strengths of the GK. I have my doubts as to whether such a player would be coaxed or tricked into putting him self into a position that he knows gives the grey knights an advantage for his entire army based on the threat generated by approximately 10% of the his army. Context depending of course, I would argue a person would try weather the storm, rather than be sucked into an obvious 'trap' (of sorts), or use alternative methods to deal with the conversion beamer threat.
Im not saying the list is bad, nor that conversion beamers dont work well with this list and many others. Simply I dont believe they will realistically be responsible for drawing more people into the mid field position for your advantage than normal, and in turn don't see this list as a defence or example of their ability and functionality in a competitive, army.
I do however, like that you like them, as they are not something you (atleast I) often see on the table top.
deleted2725480 36p · 719 weeks ago
You are also right that not everyone is going to push up into your preferred kill box simply from the threat of 2 (or maybe 3) S10 AP1 shots, but having those shots available to punish enemy backfield units is a capability that GK do not normally have, and I believe can significantly benefit from. Consider that most competitive GK builds are going to contain 2 or 3 Psyfledreads for this very purpose - long-ranged high-strength firepower essential for covering the advance of all those short-ranged units. What this list aims to do is the same thing, but in higher quantities and from diverse sources (infantry can't be suppressed like Dreads).
SneakyDan · 719 weeks ago
deleted2725480 36p · 719 weeks ago
I don't see how DE will have an easier time against this than more conventional GK; I would expect it to do better against DE than a typical Razorknight build with the extra long-ranged firepower helping to mitigate against DE mobility and ability to hide. If you're suggesting that the Techmarine squads will just eat mass Razorwing blasts early on then you have the option of hiding inside and shooting out of the Chimeras (if you go with that variant) and again these squads are no more vulnerable to this kind of attack than any other unit in a Razorknight army.
Are you trying to say that this particular build is especially weak to DE or IG or that GK in general are weak to those armies? I would disagree with the former but the latter is a fair assessment.
Prometheus 101p · 719 weeks ago