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Last post we looked at the premise of Grey Knight Acolyte-spam. Quick summary: spend minimal points on six Troops + HQ and spend more points elsewhere. We then looked at a bunch of units which we could use and would go well around the core of cheap Troops and how they might be implemented. In this post we'll look at an example list I would run with some links to other sites and then how one might play with and against such a list.
Example List:
So! What list would I recommend? Well there a ton so I'll do what I feel is a personal favourite and will most likely build at some point. I will however send you two more links to MVB's blog where has a couple more Aco-list examples here and here. Hopefully between myself and MVB, you have a good idea of what you can do with these type of lists and what some basic outlines look like. So my list...
I'm going to quickly steer away from 6x LasPlas (could you imagine the name calling at Australian tournaments) and move towards the Psybacks and Acolytes with Storm Bolters. But, I'm not going to go all the way there and shall maintain a few LasPlas. Why? Backfield scoring. There's a problem with this however as target priority for my army changes and I leave less units pushing forward/staying back. That's the price of compromise and may not work with such weak scoring units. So with that in mind I need Coteaz at 100 points...
Inquisitor Coteaz
Two tiny Acolyte squad with LasPlas Razorbacks at 92 points each, 184 total.
3x Acolyte w/LasPlas Razorback
3x Acolyte w/LasPlas Razorback
And four larger Acolyte squads with six guys each, stormbolters and a Psyback for 92 points each, 368 total.
6x Acolyte, 6x Storm Bolters w/Razorback, Psybolt Ammunition
6x Acolyte, 6x Storm Bolters w/Razorback, Psybolt Ammunition
6x Acolyte, 6x Storm Bolters w/Razorback, Psybolt Ammunition
6x Acolyte, 6x Storm Bolters w/Razorback, Psybolt Ammunition
Bringing my total to 652 or the exact same as the 6x LasPlas. Ironic. We shall then add in three Psyfledreads. These bring more ranged firepower to my list and add some extra passive psychic defense. At 135 points each, three costs me 405.
Dreadnought, 2x twin-linked Autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition
Dreadnought, 2x twin-linked Autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition
Dreadnought, 2x twin-linked Autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition
This takes my total to 1057. Time to get some goodies in my Elites and Fast Attack. We'll start with Elites and go with Purifiers. We don't need more Dreads as we want units which are going to push forward with the Acolytes, act similarly to the Acolytes and thus present target priority issues through saturation. Thus we want Purifiers! A Vindicare is also an option but not something I really want at this point when we have 3x Psyfles + 2x LasPlas. We'll keep the squad small to maximise number of units we can take and then max out the psycannons, grab the Psyback and add a Hammer for insurance. This is 195 points and we're taking three for 585.
5x Purifiers, 2x Psycannons, Daemon Hammer w/Razorback, Psybolt Ammunition
5x Purifiers, 2x Psycannons, Daemon Hammer w/Razorback, Psybolt Ammunition
5x Purifiers, 2x Psycannons, Daemon Hammer w/Razorback, Psybolt Ammunition
We're at 1642 now with only an HQ and three Fast Attack slots left. Since I haven't gone for any Paladins or GKT there's no great place to put many of the HQ options left to us (i.e. Libby). I could of course run one Chimera and fill it out with a counter-assault unit (DCA) to get my stealth buff but at this point, I'm not sure I'll have the points. We'll consider it if I need to and rather depend upon saturation and targets to draw fire from the Acolyte squads.
With this in mind it's time for some Interceptors. These guys give my army a lot of tactical options thanks to the 30" shunt as well as some extra speed to harass my opponents and get into side arcs. We will probably only have enough for two squads so we'll go with small squads, each with a psycannon and MC Hammer for 155 points. The Hammer allows for increased harassment ability whilst the Psycannon allows me to punch through side armor. Psybolt Ammo is a thought but on the small squads perhaps not (if I take a large squad and combat squad? but I lose an 2A hammer). Anyway, this sets me back 310 points taking my total to 1952.
5x Interceptors, Psycannon, Master-crafted Daemon Hammer
5x Interceptors, Psycannon, Master-crafted Daemon Hammer
So far we have 21 units actively engaging our opponent. That's a lot and a lot of firepower in there as well (though only 8 psycannons...only). The question is do I want to try and change things up to fit in that Librarian/counter assault unit? Not really, it certainly is an option but is going to change things up quite drastically. What to do then with the extra points? I could expand the backfield Acolyte units, bring in some HKM for a first turn salvo (only 4 though), add Psybolt Ammo to each of the Interceptor Squads, get two more Purifiers (Coteaz goes in the 3rd Purifier squad), grab some Halberds, Communion Inquisitor, etc. Lot of options here and I'd probably do something with Psybolt Ammo on the Interceptors (either as is currently or combine the squads and use spare points on Acolytes for the LasPlas
HQ -
Inquisitor Coteaz
Elites -
6x Purifiers, 2x Psycannons, Daemon Hammer w/Razorback, Psybolt Ammunition
6x Purifiers, 2x Psycannons, Daemon Hammer w/Razorback, Psybolt Ammunition
5x Purifiers, 2x Psycannons, Daemon Hammer w/Razorback, Psybolt Ammunition
Troops -
6x Acolyte, 6x Storm Bolters w/Razorback, Psybolt Ammunition
6x Acolyte, 6x Storm Bolters w/Razorback, Psybolt Ammunition
6x Acolyte, 6x Storm Bolters w/Razorback, Psybolt Ammunition
6x Acolyte, 6x Storm Bolters w/Razorback, Psybolt Ammunition
3x Acolyte w/LasPlas Razorback
3x Acolyte w/LasPlas Razorback
Fast Attack -
5x Interceptors, Psycannon, Master-crafted Daemon Hammer
5x Interceptors, Psycannon, Master-crafted Daemon Hammer
Heavy Support -
Dreadnought, 2x twin-linked Autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition
Dreadnought, 2x twin-linked Autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition
Dreadnought, 2x twin-linked Autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition
Totals: 2000 points
58 infantry
12 vehicles
Looks pretty good with a solid midfield element (Purifiers, Coteaz, Acolytes), disruption (Interceptors, Coteaz) and backfield (Dreadnoughts, Acolytes) with lots of mobile vehicles thrown in. Our firepower looks like this in the end:
12 S8 TL @ 48"
2 S9 @ 48"
2-4 S7 @ 12-24"
21 S6 TL @ 36"
16-32 S7 rending @ 24"
86 S4 @ 24" (48 BS3, 38 BS4)
PSYBEREAGLE
That's pretty impressive. So how then does this play? Pretty simply really: exactly like your normal GK but with lots and lots of units. You're going to push and take midfield and spit out stormbolter fire. You've got seven units capable of doing this with another two which can go off by themselves or support you (Interceptors). Whilst the Acolyte squads aren't quite as strong as their Grey Knight counterparts, your opponent has to kill them all or they simply load into transports and play keep away. Whilst they are weak, you are looking to overwhelm your opponent with targets (something Grey Knights are not used to doing) and present difficult target priority. The Purifiers are more deadly to you with their better guns and BS, but aren't scoring whilst the Acolytes are still quite deadly to anything de-meched and score.
Back this up with Psyfledreads and LasPlas providing ranged support and the Psybacks providing more weight of fire further into your opponent's deployment zone (Long Fangs: I see you) and your opponent cannot simply ignore the vehicles either. The Psybacks in particular can run blocking moves and mass tank shocks for disruption whilst also protecting the Acolytes/Purifiers from assaults with the good old V-technique. The Interceptors + Purifiers/Coteaz also have S8-10 hammers and aren't super slouches in combat to anything that breaks through or anything in the opponent's backfield. Don't expect them to win against weighty numbers/units however and they'll do fine.
In the end you look to overwhelm your opponent with targets and firepower of both kinds whilst keeping whittled down units alive and disrupting your opponent with non-scoring options.
Beating the List:
How then do you beat this or lists built around this concept? With great pain of course! Basically we look at what I said above and inverse it.
Ensure you completely wipe squads, particularly the Acolytes. There are no Rhinos so nothing is going to run into a transport and then continue being an annoying little bugger and shoot from the top-hatch (i.e. a Psycannon). Whilst there are a lot of targets it's not too difficult to inflict 12 wounds on T3 models (with math saying 12 wounds will result in six failed covers; 18 if they go to ground) in one shooting phase. Do this and do not spread your shooting out between squads. The same oddly goes for tanks, don't look to suppress them unless you have psychic defenses. Rather, look to destroy them or incapacitate them in some permanent form (weapon destroyed or immobilised) and this will reduce their impact upon the game. If you have duality based firepower, look to focus it on any disembarked infantry rather than trying to kill a tank (unless it's a MUCH better tank killer). There are 12 tanks out there and they ignore 1/3 of all penetrating results and that's after cover, to pen and to hit rolls.
Focus on pressuring the army as well, particularly in midfield with assaults. The Purifiers are going to be murder on hordes and the Nemesis Force Weapons of the Interceptors/Purifiers + Hammers are a bit of a deterrent but there's not many of them and importantly, not much to back them up. As we've said countless times, one of Grey Knights biggest weaknesses is combat and since Acolytes are the main Troop choice, there is very little counter-assault ability in the army. Once the Purifiers are engaged in combat, the only thing that can really save them from a losing situation are the Interceptors (who are base 1A). The Acolytes are simply going to avoid combat at all costs and high-tail it out of there.
Midfield is also going to be crowded and although this is going to hurt your assault lanes, any time you tie a unit up, suppress a unit/tank (gone to ground, psychic hood stops Fortitude) or stick your own units in there, the Grey Knight player doesn't have many places to go there. There are seven tanks + 42 Grey Knight infantry there as it is so putting more units there is going to hurt their ability to operate appropriately. Look particularly to cut off backfield retreat routes with fast units so even if units do load up in tanks, they'll find it hard to escape you.
Furthermore, you're not as comfortable in a ranged fight against these type of lists as normal due to the large amount of 36-48" range weapons but you'll still often have the advantage in that regards (particularly if you are a backfield shooting list). Look to maximise those first few turns where the Grey Knight list has most of their firepower on the move and if you can, delay them from getting to midfield and hopping out of their transports. As above, this will greatly reduce the army's effectiveness and move it away from your backfield. You will more than likely lose the units you move forward to disrupt them but protecting the rest of your army so you have more time to eliminate squads is important. Any disrupting units you can get into the Grey Knight backfield are also going to be of great use but remember Interceptors still have Warp Quake so don't be too brazen with your deep-striking otherwise they may stay home and tell you to bugger off.
All in all a lot to consider but essentially the same weaknesses as most Grey Knight lists except with more bodies and firepower (with increased ranged and low AP shots). Assaults, focus fire, backfield disruption, psychic defense and clogging up midfield are going to put this (and most GK armies) out of their comfort zone. If you allow them to establish themselves in midfield and start disrupting and blocking you with multiple, hard to suppress tanks backed up by lots and lots of dakka, you're going to find it hard to win.
Conclusion
The Acolyte spam list basis is strong. You're circumventing one of the weaknesses of the codex (low model/unit count) by foregoing the 'basic' Troop. Importantly however, you're not handicapping the list. The weak Troop units are a drawback but with six of them and a bunch of targets on which you need to focus, not drastically so. What's great about this concept is there are lots and lots of options in which you can build around it, with lots of options in how you build your Acolyte units as well. Hello 5th edition books. Whilst it does use Coteaz and isn't a pure Grey Knight list (fluff bunnies and spam haters unite!), there is a good mix of units in there with different yet similar roles to allow tactical flexibility backed up with extreme firepower. I'll take that and suffer the glares.
In the end the list plays very closely to a normal Grey Knight list: out of transports shooting at people. Whilst the average defense and offense of the infantry is less than what it normally is, you have enough bodies to compensate for this. Amazingly you can also operate lists with up more than 20+ effective units, something few armies can boast. In the end to beat this list you have to focus on not only Grey Knight weaknesses (combat, unreliable armor destruction) but the list's as well (weaker Troops). This is hard to do with so many targets and the ability for the units to hide in transports and run away but certainly isn't un-doable.
I hope you enjoyed this two part series (oooo mini-series) and it not only helped with list building but gameplay on the table. Have at ye.
Gornall · 720 weeks ago
Draigo
Coteaz
10 Pallies (655 points worth of wound allocation)
5 WAVU Psybacks
5 Purifiers (DH and 2 Pyscannons) with Pysback
5 Purifiers (DH and 2 Pyscannons) with Pysback
Pysfleman
Pysfleman
Your list looks stronger, but I wanted to use Draigo and Pallies, and the cheap core Coteaz provides allows me to try that and remain fairly competitive (IMO).
Kirby 118p · 720 weeks ago
Wyked · 720 weeks ago
I like the extra 3xStr6 shots, but I also think you are hurting yourself by forcing the Purifiers out of the tank in order to shoot. Why not keep them inside of a Rhino?
You only have a 5 man squad with 2 psycannons and so both can shoot. The Rhino's Fortitude will keep the Purifiers alive and shooting much longer, effectively turning the Rhino into a mobile (If needed) bunker.
You also already have 4 Psybacks dropping off Alcolytes and then shimmying around the board for tank shocking/LoS blocking/Heavy Bolter shots.
Swapping those 3 razors to rhinos will make the Purifiers hardier, provide a better reason to leave them a ~little~ further back or off to the side as cover for the interceptors, and free up 78 points which could go into (3 more interceptors? Not sure, can't see anything worth while really.)
Kirby 118p · 720 weeks ago
Rhinos certainly work well with Purifiers/Purgation squads where you can have 2 psycannons from the top-hatch. You don't always need those storm bolter shots after all. But in the case of this list you need to overcome your weak Troops by presenting a lot of targets to your opponent. Rhino + squad is one offensive target whilst Razorback + squad is two.
Pedros · 720 weeks ago
And if those 2 razors are shooting in the back, then what is a point to bring plasma on them? TL LC is better option, as it will be hard to ever get on 12" range.
Try to find those 16 points for 8 halberds for purifiers. Cost isn't great, but you are much better in CC. You also completely lack of Melta Weapons to finish Land Rider. Won't it be good, to change one/two acolies to melta acolies or just give melta bombs to some of them? I know u can just hammer it /w S10, but have an option from the range also is nice.
Kirby 118p · 720 weeks ago
LasPlas gvies you options. The opponent is going to come in that 12-24" range at some point. Whether they break through your lines, deep-strike, outflank, etc. having those extra S7 AP2 shots is nice to have for the same cost.
See below for AV14.
Anand · 720 weeks ago
Kirby 118p · 720 weeks ago
pimpdaddyork · 720 weeks ago
Otto Engel · 713 weeks ago
Pop421 · 720 weeks ago
I must say that I was surprised by the list you’ve post. As you’ve highlighted it looks pretty much like a standard GK list except that you basically switch 1 incursion squad in psy back for 2 acolyte squad in psyback. In the end this is a fair trade-off as you have more unit but less solid. The average firepower is roughly the same. My main concern with this kind of list is morale check: If I(ve to fight this list I will shoot the acolyte down to 2 and hope for them to fail morale check. It can significantly increase the number of troop that can be destroyed. In the end this is the weakness of this list: one as to kill 25-30 GEQ to get 6KP ou erase your troops…
To be honest I thought after part one that the goal was really to minimize the acolyte squad and get them as far as possible from the enemy until he is to weak to do any harm to them. It thus require more Melta (read dread) to stop the enemy in his backfield.
Pop421 · 720 weeks ago
Coteaz
Karadread
Vendread, Multi-melta, twin-linked Autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition
Vendread, Multi-melta, twin-linked Autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition
Vendread, Multi-melta
3x Deathcult assasins w/Razorback, Psybolt Ammunition
3x Acolyte w/Razorback, Psybolt Ammunition
3x Acolyte w/Razorback, Psybolt Ammunition
3x Acolyte w/LasPlas Razorback
3x Acolyte w/LasPlas Razorback
3x Acolyte w/LasPlas Razorback
Dreadnought, 2x twin-linked Autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition
Redeemer w/ MultiMelta
Redeemer w/ MultiMelta
The goal is to bring 6 strong unit (3 ven dread + 2 Redeemer + Karamasov) in midfield.
Each of them has a very effective anti-tank ability with a MM (CT5, twin link or with 4 S7 rending shot). MEQ can be handled trough the fire storm canon, locked with dread or assault with the 2 HQ and DCA. Horde are more hard to deal with but can be locked with dread (and Karamasov can use his orbital relay). Overall those unit should be able to block/destroy lots of things while the troops are safe behind.
Kirby 118p · 720 weeks ago
In comparison to say my Grey Knights this list has better anti-infantry, light-mech (AV10-11), medium mech (12-13) but worse heavy mech (14) due to no meltas and less psycannons. Certainly the Troops are less durable and as you said, Karadread would be a great asset (keeping my acolyte theme, drop the Interceptors and a Purifier squad, add in Karadread + Paladins) but the list is based around target saturation. This list has 21 targets to actively engage compared to 15 in my GK list. That's a pretty big jump and one of the premises around using the larger Acolyte squads with stormbolters (whilst still being cheap).
You can of course keep the Acolytes as small and as far back from your opponent as possible (i.e. 3x Aco, LasPlas RBack) and I'd then look to run Purifiers, Purgation, Paladin and Interceptor squads towards my opponent. This way their Rhinos/Razorbacks + bodies clog midfield and the LasPlas Razors take the place of Psyfledreads at a cheaper cost (and obviously being less effective but then you have more psycannons to compensate for that).
I'd only really use Karadread on lists where the Acolytes are actively getting out of their transports and therefore more likely to get shot.
Pedros · 720 weeks ago
Why dont u use really good and cheap Closecombat support? Death Cultists are great. Then, your army would have some punch to use against things, that can come near you. And I didn't say to stay /w those chimeras in the backfield. I would just swap Las/Plas Razors from Purifiers and give them Chimera. That way everyone can shoot, and you get 2-3 Las/Plas in the backfield.
Kirby 118p · 720 weeks ago
If I'm using Chimeras I want to be taking advantage of what they give me. This is front AV12, two heavies and 5 firepoints. This means I don't want to push them into midfield as much and dump their cargo like Razorbacks. Why? Side AV10 will quickly become exposed and single rear hatches = bad. So I want to be fighting from their top-hatches where pivoting is less important and if I'm doing that, why not take meltaguns? Since I don't want to fight from inside my transports Razorbacks are a better option with their weapon choices, Fortitude and no drop-off in side AV compared to front.
The list doesn't need DCA. DCA are great and you can put them in but then you're moving away from cheap arse Troops and saturating the opponent with targets. I'd rather go with Paladins for a good combat unit with Libby or Karadread as support.
Anal Anon · 720 weeks ago
Otto Engel · 713 weeks ago
Coteaz
Vindicare
3xwarriors Razor LasPlas
3xwarriors Razor LasPlas
3xwarriors Razor LasPlas
6x Acolyte, 5x Storm Bolters, 1 meltagun, w/Razorback, Psybolt Ammunition
6x Acolyte, 5x Storm Bolters, 1 meltagun, w/Razorback, Psybolt Ammunition
6x Acolyte, 5x Storm Bolters, 1 meltagun, w/Razorback, Psybolt Ammunition
Rifledreads + SL (searchlight)
Rifledreads + SL
Rifledreads + SL
10x Purifiers, 4x Psycannons, MC Daemon Hammer, 5 Halberts with psyboltammo, w/Razorback, Psybolt Ammunition
6x Purifiers, 2x Psycannons, MC Daemon Hammer, 3 Halberts with psyboltammo, w/Razorback, Psybolt Ammunition
Its only 11 veicles, but Vindicare make alot of pressure in the opponet, and help with Landriders oo Thunderwolf cavalary, using Stormshield.
crash · 709 weeks ago
DOMIN4TRIX · 681 weeks ago