Tyranids the love child of all the hate on 5th edition. Out of all the 5th edition books, Tyranids and their FAQ are easily the worst of the lot. There are issues within the book, how they end up playing and specific match-ups on the tabletop. All is not lost however as they are still an excellent army - just with limitations. Do I think Tyranids can win tournaments? Absolutely. Consistently? No. Should you shelve them? No. If you have a list you like and it works well, you'll do well assuming you are a good general but know there are some match-ups where it's really tough for you to win and in a tournament setting, you are highly likely to meet those armies multiple times.
So let's look at the Tyranid codex. We'll look at some of their issues they suffer from during list building and how these issues translate to play on the tabletop. Over the coming week I'll do Army Comparisons of the major match up issues and how one can attempt to overcome these as much as possible as well as other commonly seen armies. Let's start with the List Building then.
List Building
Most everyone should know this by now so I'm not going into great detail about this. The basic concept most Tyranid lists work around is suppression fire from their shooting which will break tanks through weight of fire backed up by superior close combat ability. Their army as a whole is pretty durable with lots of T6 and gribblies at the same time. The problem is it is very hard to build outside of this concept in any form - this is the impact of the FAQ. You have minimal way to disrupt your opponent significantly and quite often it can become a game of numbers against your important units and ensuring your advance is done correctly (this is obviously a huge part of 40k but there are much less options in a 6" move foot army compared to a 12" move mech army).
Tyranids are a very synergistic army and this stems directly from synapse. You don't have enough synapse coverage and you lose control of your army. It's not as bad as it used to be as there is some level of offensive predictability with lurking and feeding creatures compared to before but controlling your army > not controlling it. Beyond this, lots of unit support each other well so you need to create an army list which does this. Unfortunately you'll find by doing so each unit has a defined role. This is great but the consequential lack of duality gives your opponents easier choices when dealing with your army.
We then have the over-chocked Elite slot. Lots of good units, finite space. This leads directly to one of the major balancing factors of the codex: ranged anti-tank. Using any Elite slots not for Hive Guard hampers your army in some way. You can not field three units of HG and still do well and have a good list but not taking Hive Guard feels like you're losing something. You have few options for good anti-tank outside of this slot and as said above, your units are quite often very specialised in what they do. Makes sense in regards to the Tyranid fluff but hurts you on the tabletop.
Whilst ranged anti-tank can be a problem, the bigger problem is actually balancing that ranged anti-tank with your combat options. Get too many units which can shoot tanks down and you're going to have mediocre combat yet combat is where Tyranids excel. Couple this with very few ranged anti-infantry options and balancing your firepower and combat ability against tanks and infantry is a very delicate balance which can easily be upset with a couple of bad choices in your list.
There are a lot of other quriks as well such as poor psychic defense which cannot affect models inside transports. The limitation of Mycetic Spores, particularly that of deploying them alone and Primes not being transported in them. Minimal assault grenades is also a huge pain in the ass, particularly with high initiative units which are good in assault. This is mitigated somewhat with lash whips but these aren't really common.
This all equates to lists being pretty predictable for your opponent with target priority that doesn't take a genius to figure out. The good lists are still solid and have the options you need but you will quite often have less tactical options on the actual tabletop compared to other armies. This doesn't really limit the army's effectiveness, if a bludgeon works, it works but if your opponent can stop that bludgeon? you have very little in ways to work around that. Here are what I would think are some quick fixes for the Nid codex:
- get rid of the FAQ; all the dumb rulings were not needed and all the real FAQs were dumb questions
- all units in Synapse range are Eternal Warrior
- move through cover = strike at the same time as your opponent when assaulting through cover if your initiative is greater than theirs (thanks Purg for this idea)
- minimum of 20 points off all MCs
Simply and easy to implement but obviously not all encompassing. So let's look at the effect of these issues during list building on the tabletop.
Tabletop Play
Many claim Tyranids cannot win consistently because their anti-tank isn't enough (yet Orks, Daemons and Chaos is? Come on BoLS). The problem itself isn't anti-tank, Tyranids as a whole can deal with tanks quite easily over the course of a game. The problem stems from balancing your level of anti-tank and your level of anti-infantry whilst also spreading your anti-tank out across multiple units. Tyranid anti-infantry is always going to be close combat based, that's what their army is about but there are very few options to deal with infantry at significant range and this gives your opponent an advantage. Do you take Biovores or HVC? Both can do the job but being blasts aren't hyper reliable and the HVC also has use against tanks, etc. Mawlocs? Very expensive for what it does and requires Hive Commander to be reliable, etc. This is just part and parcel of Tyranid list building.
This is compounded with Tyranids then running most of their anti-tank in a few units. The problem is thus two-fold. Not only does your opponent have easy target priority and only a few units to deal with at range but you can only suppress/kill so much in a turn. Whilst each of these units is often very reliable at what they do, bad dice can turn three to four suppressed tanks plus one to two kills to nothing. Obviously I'm referring to Hive Guard here and if your opponent takes them out, most of your anti-tank shooting is gone and if you haven't disabled a lot of tanks already (and are playing against mech obviously), you're in a world of strife. You still have T-Fexes, Brainleech Devs and HVCs but you are now relying a lot more on killing tanks in combat with rending or MCs. The only MCs which are really good at this when the tanks are moving are Trygons and naked Carnifexes thanks to their re-rolls with double talons.
This rolls neatly into what I was saying before in list building, the Tyranid army becomes predictable. Again, not a death sentence but not fun. Your army for the most part wants to get close to the enemy and only certain units can effectively damage tanks as you move in. You have awesome durability as a whole so aren't going to explode in a cloud of red ichor and gore but your basic plan goes along the lines of: move forward, shooting with anti-tank units, run, assault. This is simplified to the extreme and there are tons of choices and movement options that will separate good Tyranid players from bad, deploying your Gant screen for example.
Furthermore, without extensive access to offensive grenades, the awesome combat ability the army relies on to kill infantry, is far less effective. This is especially true with high initiative but low save models such as Raveners, Genestealers, Hormagaunts, etc. Tyranids rely on their combat ability not only to pressure suppressed tanks but to clean out infantry and this can be difficult when your infantry gets chopped up before they get to attack...even though you're paying for the ability to normally strike first. Lash Whips help a great deal in this regard but aren't exactly common.
What this leads to however, is bad match-ups. This is the case where the opposing army can stop the bludgeon by removing your ranged options early and consistently and otherwise can make your durability...well not so durable. Hive Guard obviously have the advantage of being able to hide out of LoS and fire to full effect. This is where terrain plays a huge part (you mean I can only hide them 48" away from my opponent?) and the opposing match-up (how capable are they of getting around the LoS blocker). And this is where the next posts will go. I've already done Dark Eldar which I'll summarise below but we'll also look at the love childen of 5th edition, Imperial Guard and Space Wolves and the new shiny kids, Grey Knights.
Dark Eldar and Tyranids
Before we go, the summary of the Dark Eldar and Tyranid comparison. These armies match-up very well against each other. Tyranid strengths do very well against Dark Eldar whilst Dark Eldar strengths do very well against Tyranids.
Tyranids are quite capable of downing Dark Eldar mech with reliability and even HVCs become quite effective on such large chassis and no negative bonus. Both their infantry and tough units are prime targets for poisoned weaponry which can overload the Dark Eldar army and FNP is allowed (obviously important for large units). Speaking of which, no psychic defenses means Catalyst and Onslaught will be cast on Ld10 with no stopping power which really helps Nids deal with Dark Eldar firepower and mobility. Tyranids are also quick enough in combat to often beat Dark Eldar and have Lash Whips to ensure they go first. Add in their firepower works well against infantry as well as little ability for the opponent to deal with MCs in combat.
On the flip side, all the darklight weapons are very effective against MCs and in particular, don't allow T-fexes saves. No FNP either. Poisoned shots obviously help add weight against the tough units which allows for easy alpha striking. Their mobility + night shields can give Tyranids fits and access Hive Guard in hiding whilst flickerfields ensure they will always have some save against Hive Guard. Night shields aren't super common though and Onslaught can help against this. Although MCs are hard to bring down for Dark Eldar in combat, Agonisers can inflict reliable wounds and Wyches will tarpit them pretty effectively (and can hand out attacks to Gant units, etc.). Shock Prows are really important for Dark Eldar against Tyranids as well as it allows them to break bubble-wraps and launch assaults in the same turn.
Again, lots of strengths on both sides and who applies their army better will win through though hot dice on one side can quickly swing the battle in their favor.
Conclusion
We got here in the end. Tyranids are a great army. If your opponent cannot simply wipe 40-50+ T6 wounds off the table, they're going to have issues. The Tyranid army works in a specific way and whilst the FAQ has hurt this and options outside of this, it still does it very well. The problem without looking at specific match-ups is the general army composition and the lack of spreading anti-tank ability across the army or access to much ranged anti-infantry at all. When we look at specific match-ups which can overcome some of the Tyranid strengths, Tyranids have a hard game ahead of them. We'll look at this over the coming posts with Grey Knights, Imperial Guard and Space Wolves.
Karvala · 717 weeks ago
All the more so when said build has severe issues with some of the common opponents in tournament play.
That doesn't mean that you can't win with Tyranids - but you can't do so reliably as you are dependent on not meeting up with certain opponents.
Pop421 · 717 weeks ago
And this is the weakness of the tyranids army.
Any competitive list based on outgunning (GK with psyrifledread, psyback and 10+psycanon, GI Mech, hybrid wolves with 15+ long fang and 7+ razorback) you will include 15-20 S8 shots and 30-40 S5-7 shots per turn at least. This will boil down to 10-15 W inflicted on T6…and thus can take out your army in 2-3 turn…having in mind that you can not do a bulk of things during these 2 turn to significantly take out enemy fire (if you play 3 T-Fexes you might suppress 1-2 chassis at best…and leave not enough points for CC units).
By the way one of the failure is also for me catalyst: it is always leaving a unit to weak for your opponent to kill: either the synapse / casting unit or the shooting unit!
General Smooth · 717 weeks ago
Bro_Lo 82p · 717 weeks ago
General Smooth · 717 weeks ago
Karvala · 717 weeks ago
Shadowmancer · 717 weeks ago
LordRao · 716 weeks ago
mukslinger · 717 weeks ago
Then there is the whole denial phase people go through when they talk about how nid lists need synergy to be competitive. Like you need some deeper zen understanding of the codex. I've been there, and I do win the odd game. heck, I win the odd game with my necrons, doesn't make them a good competitive army.
abusepuppy 121p · 717 weeks ago
LordRao · 716 weeks ago
Hulksmash · 717 weeks ago
I think that yes, if you build your army around the idea of T6, then there are hard counters to the army. However the rise of the swarm is back. Would I prefer for Raveners to have EW if they are in Synapse or assault grenades? Sure. But honestly it'd be borderline ridiculous. The only thing that should have assault grenades to me that doesn't is Genestealers. And this is generally due to losing tons of attacks before combat, something Raveners generally don't suffer from.
Anyway, good article from the perspective of T6 based armies. But I'd be careful not to paint the entire codex with this single concept brush.
abusepuppy 121p · 717 weeks ago
How do you protect your Hive Guard? Obviously they're going to be a prime target any time they're present, but in an army like yours they're extra-obvious as the place to send all the big guns, and if they're disabled you have effectively no way to take out tanks.
I experimented with MC-less lists, but I found them to have too many holes in their strategies to really be effective.
Hulksmash · 717 weeks ago
Regarding Hive Guard as targets you'd be surprised. The ability to have several multi-charges on turn 2 tends to cause people to lose focus on the Hive Guard. It easy to say "Shoot the Hive Guard" but generally you need those same shots to put a dent in the 45-60 Genestealers, 10-12 Raveners, and 20-30 Gargoyles. Because 6-9 Hive Guard will survive a round or two of shooting and will generally dismount between 2-4 units doing it. The dismounted units + combi charging vehicles generally means safe units in combat while damaging vehicles. It's worked out pretty well so far but I've only gotten around 10 games in so far. And only 6 of those were tournament games.
abusepuppy 121p · 717 weeks ago
It will depend on the army and deployment with whether HG get targeted- some armies don't really care about them, for others they are a major problem. Any kind of heavily mechanized army will probably be able to shrug off everything else in your list fairly effectively, so they become the only danger to non-mech'd units. (I find my HG rarely start in shooting range on T1 unless my opponent sets up poorly or I Seize, so I generally get shot once, losing 1-3 models, before I get any shots of my own off- and this can be a lot worse against some armies.)
Hulksmash · 717 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 717 weeks ago
DE are likewise annoying, but cover saves on MCs aren't terribly hard to generate, so I don't find them cripplingly hard. Layering Gaunts -> HG -> Tervigons goes a long ways towards making life difficult for them, as does putting Catalyst on the right targets.
Hulksmash · 716 weeks ago
It's not saves that are the issue against DE with my Nids. I'm talking about running into a 8-9 Venom, 3 Ravager list with plenty of blasters and some wyches. The speed and range mean that you'll lose every, single, HG before they get to shoot (each Venom kills 1 HG w/out Catalyst). Or if they are catalysted then that'll be the only turn since they'll just turn those guns on the Tervi's. Well built DE are a horrible match up for Nids but luckily I've only seen 2-3 actual tournament lists show up that I fear. I just know that those 2-3 will be showing up to major events like Adepticon or Nova so I have to build accordingly.
Karvala · 716 weeks ago
5 attempts to cast Jaws: 1 failed psychic test and 4 failed rolls to hit.......
mercer 84p · 717 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 717 weeks ago
The deal with Fearless and No Retreat is just part of the game. For small bugs, it's not really a big deal- sure it's annoying, but that's the price you pay for never falling back or being pinned. The problem is the way it interacts across multiple combats, allowing opponents to stack 10+ wounds onto a MC.
mercer 84p · 717 weeks ago
I knowfearless is part of the game though it's just annoying. I get the same shit with Orks as well. Where there's a positive there's anegative. Now taking wounds on another unit i.e monstrous creature in the same combat is extremely annoying.Those no retreat saves should be spread out equally like wound allocation. Fearless with Hive Tyrant and Gargoyles is the day when I stopped using that unit combo and went foot Tyrant with Guard.
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mukslinger · 717 weeks ago
mercer 84p · 717 weeks ago
I'd definately count Zoanthropes, S10AP1 lance is definately anti tank - short ranged? Yes but that's to balance it out.Regardless of range Zoanthropes have one of the best anti tank weaponsin the game. It's just how they work which is a pain i.e psychic tests. Anyway, you could easily combat the range with Spores, but you needright reserve rolls...what a pickle hey lol and this is why I went Hive Guard.
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abusepuppy 121p · 717 weeks ago
Harpies are fine at low points values as suppression fire and utility- not great, but usable, and at least they can shoot past 24". -1 on the chart is a pain, but being TL helps out some, as it's actually quite accurate.
Karvala · 717 weeks ago
mukslinger · 717 weeks ago
mercer 84p · 717 weeks ago
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Trent · 717 weeks ago
Alternatively, on occasion I've deliberately kept swarms out of synapse range with a synapse creature positioned back a bit but in their fall back corridor (about 18" away). They usually do enough damage on the turn they charge to tie or win the fight. In the opponent's turn they've lost the charge bonus so usually lose, meaning they flee the combat. With high Init. they'll probably not get caught and will fall back. With the avg. 2d6 roll of 7" this puts them in range of the synapse creature for the following turn to auto rally. Now I can get another round of firing at the unit that they were previously fighting and charge a fresh different unit in afterwards. Rinse. Repeat.
It takes a bit of finesse but when it works the enemy is usually left flabbergasted and helpless.
mercer 84p · 717 weeks ago
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abusepuppy 121p · 717 weeks ago
Dave · 717 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 717 weeks ago
(Also, Doom is very likely to eat a Force Weapon and explode the turn after he arrives against GK. A brief distraction at best.)
mukslinger · 717 weeks ago
It's funny, we all like the nid's, we all know they have issues yet they seem to be on the edge of being a great army. So, we've all been toying with lists for a year and half to try and get around it. What looks like minor flaws on paper, turn out to be not so minor for the army in practice. Adding insult to injury, just simple faq/update could bring them even closer, it's so close we can almost taste it. I'm guessing that's why no one wants to give up on them, they are so close, and do pretty well as a rogue army.
Here's hoping 6th basically gives them assault grenades via move thru cover rolls ignoring the existence terrain, that would be tasty.
abusepuppy 121p · 717 weeks ago
Abakus · 717 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 717 weeks ago
Abakus · 716 weeks ago
bugsculptor · 717 weeks ago
I've done well with my nids in a couple of small tournaments and I'm going to keep playing them, but I agree with the overall analysis - with the codex and FAQ as they stand you need to be a little lucky in match ups rather than being able to bring an army capable of dealing with all the other factions.
Dark_Gear · 717 weeks ago
Yes it's true Nids have their weaknesses, but these weaknesses are not crippling and it's high-time we dispel the myths about the Nid Codex. The easiest myth to dispel is that nids don't have powerful anti-infantry outside of melee. Biovores and Devilgaunts are a very affordable and effective solution for their points cost, and neither of those choices mess with our much prized Elite slot. For example, on many occasions I've run whole squads off the table right from the first turn because my opponent underestimated the effectiveness (and range) of massed biovore fire. Havocs and Longfangs are the usual victims of such barrages.
As far as nids dealing with AV13 or 14, especially when playing for objectives, the easy solution is to treat said vehicles like Monoliths and just ignore them. Focus on the the AV 11 or 12 delivery vehicles to release the troops onto the field, kill them swiftly with biovores and assaults. At best you'll eliminate all your opponent's scoring options, at worst he'll be able to contest some objectives while you're actually claiming more than him.
Karvala · 716 weeks ago
Biovores are a good anti-infantry option, with good range and good killing power. Shoot a brood of 3 biovores into a longfang missile squad and you have a good chance of forcing a LD test which they MAY fail (LD9 means they probably will pass) and run off the board.
At 135 points they aren't as pricey as many things in the codex, but they have very little impact on vehicles without your opponent cooperating and exposing AV10 rear armor at you for glances.
However..... for 140 points - much the same as the biovore brood, the Longfangs have 6 guys, 5 with missile launchers, able to split fire, and able to shoot S8 AP3 single shots for anti-tank or armor-piercing anti MC/MEQ OR they can shoot 5 small blasts for anti-horde.
OR... they could drop a couple of guys with missile launchers and get a TL HB razorback and be 5 points cheaper than the biovore brood.
Don't get me wrong, I like and use biovores, but they aren't as good or as flexible as what I can get with Space Wolves for the same points.
Dark_Gear · 716 weeks ago
Ever since 5th came up I've had this strong impression that GW took some serious steps to make the sure that only Space Marines get the almighty 3+ save and everything goes downhill from there. I don't have a problem at all with that stats line because it really does, even from a fluff standpoint, reinforces the position of Marines in the battle field food chain. Giving S4 AP4 to Biovores is basically GW saying: feel free to bombard the masses and the Xenos so we can send in the Marines to save them.
Looking to what you say about flexibilty however, I have to agree again that Biovores are definitely not flexible. They're a one-shot deal, much like almost every single worthwhile unit in the Nid Codex. Herein lies the strength and weakness of the Nids. Much like the Eldar, it seems we are gifted with very singularly focused units even though we weren't graced with anything nearly as useful as Fire Dragons. We're also even more dependant on synergy than Eldar ever were. Look at all our top performers and you'll notice that fit in a "narrow niche" type of deployment. Hive Guard, Stealers, Biovores, Shrikes with Swords and Whips - these are all units that tend to do 1 thing very well, are somewhat expensive, but because they do the 1 thing so well we don't even think of arguing they are overcosted or inflexible.
Maybe that was the grand design of GW, make an army that doesn't have "all that" when it comes to blowing up vehicles yet still has manages to give 90% of armies and builds a hard time because the focus of the Codex's good units more than makes up for the "weakness" that seem to be glaringly obvious on paper.
Karvala · 716 weeks ago
Even looking at AV11 and 12 transports, the Tyranid army comes up lacking, *because* of that specialization. Realistically we have, even in a 2000 point army, points and FOC slots available for probably only 5 anti-tank units - 3 elite slots and a couple of Tyrannofexes with Rupture Cannons. You could slide in a few more HVC's on Harpies, Tyrants and Carnifexes, but the added anti-tank firepower gained for cost spent is pretty minimal.
Even our premier anti-tank unit - 3 Hive Guard - does not really devastate enemy armor. 6 shots = 4 hits = 2 pens (vs AV11) = 2/3 chance of destroying a vehicle, halved to 1/3 if it has 4+ cover, to 1/2 if it has 5+ cover.
Using 3x3 Hive guard and getting on average 1-2 transports immobilised/destroyed per turn is not too bad from 3 units/450 points, **BUT it is not that impressive as the anti-tank performance of a 2k/1850 point army** Especially when you consider that the best possible result is only going to be affecting 3 vehicles.
Tyrannofexes don't add that much more: 2 shots at BS3 = 1 hit = 2/3 pen = 2/9 destroyed, halved to 1/9 in 4+ cover - not that impressive for 265 points of anti-tank.
The lack of dual-function is a problem. In most armies, such as Eldar, that can be fixed by having the transports take up the other function that the unit lacks, but Tyranids lack that option.
The lack of the ability to distribute real anti-tank shooting across the whole FOC is a major limitation of the codex. Which other codexes have similar problems? Orks & Necrons, both of which are generally considered among the weakest codexes.
Dark_Gear · 716 weeks ago
Nids have a major issue with taking on meched-up forces because their AT units are specialised at popping AV11-12 vehicles not as effectively as AT units from other Codices. There's no denying that, especially when you simply look at each unit individually rather than how it functions when everything is running up field.
As I'm sure you know since you also play Nids, our deployment revolves around saturating the field with multiple threatening units and thus forcing our opponent to make difficult choices. Do I focus on the nearly immovable hive guard in cover, the incoming squad of dakkafexes (I run them in pairs typically), the ever-growing carpet of gaunts and their accompanying Tervigon, the biovores in the back field that are pounding my few dismounted infantry units, or the fast-approaching screen of gargoyles and shrikes? Even experienced players will struggle to properly prioritise and focus their shooting when faced with many threatening choices. Because of being forced to make said choices, opportunities will arise whereby our specialised yet sub-optimal units will get enough freedom to do what they do best, mostly unhindered, or at least that's how it's been for me thus far.
Basically, I feel that when people bring up the argument that Nids don't have the same options as other codices for dealing with AT, the issue is more that our solutions to dealing with opposing forces are so different because synergy is such a big part of how nids operate whereas IG or Marines can just have single units going off on their own. Play Nids the same you'd play Imperial forces and you have issues, play them as Nids and it's a different story altogether.
I'm not saying this to make it seem like I'm some kind of Uber-General, on the contrary. I'm just saying that the the Nid's AT capabilities are fine as is for me now that I've found out how to make them work reliably in the context of our admittedly very different codex.
Karvala · 716 weeks ago
Nids have issues with taking on mech forces BECAUSE their AT units are specialised in popping AT11-12 units extremely well, but they are poor at dealing with AV13-14, and the range on the AT specialists is generally quite low (24" HG, 18" Zoans) and outside of the specialist AT units their range AT capability is near zero.
This doesn't make the Tyranids an impossibly bad codex - they way outperform Necrons for example, but the built-in limitations leave a number of matchups that are extremely hard for the Tyranids to overcome.
Competitive GK lists, for example, massively outshoot Tyranids in both anti-tank/MC and anti infantry, and can hold their own against nids in cc. Add in all the extra toys available in the GK codex - deepstrike/reserve denial, rad grenades, sanctuary, shrouding, hard-to-suppress vehicles
Dark Eldar lists with high mobility, pain tokens (which nids tend to hand out to them like candy), and 4+ to wound with their standard shooting, can very effectively concentrate force and overwhelm Nid armies part by part.
Space Wolf lists tend to bring enough missiles and lascannons to cause problems, along with the potential of Jaws and Murderous Hurricane
Any marine list based around a pair of Landraider Crusaders and a Techmarine will cause fits to Tyranid lists without Zoanthropes and Tyrannofexes
Now it's not that we CAN'T beat these types of armies, but you are starting at a disadvantage against them, and this is the problem with competitive tournaments - to win a tournament you are very likely to have to play high-quality players running hard lists from one or more of the 'top' codexes - and GK, SW, and DE are common tournament codexes.
Tyranids suffer from their specialization and 'synergistic' nature. Strong specialization in function simplifies target prioritization by your opponent and, by definition, a synergistic army loses strength disproportionately when critical elements are removed.
Prometheus 101p · 716 weeks ago
bugsculptor · 716 weeks ago
Besides, leaving a few cheap warriors or raveners around so someone tries to splat them instead of your MCs is a great tactic... it'd be a shame if that disappeared.