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Wednesday, August 10, 2011

Army Comparison: Grey Knights and Mechdar

MayBug

Ah Mechdar, how we used to love you. So annoying to take down, so fast, so shiny and with so many pointy ears. How unkindly 5th edition as treated you. Odd how you are perhaps one of the most annoying match-ups possible for Grey Knights, the new poster boys of 5th edition and ironically shiny in their paint.

Although Eldar are quite restricted in their current build paradigms (Mechdar, Footdar and Wraithzilla), all of which have varying and questionable levels of competitiveness, for the most part Mechdar isn't terrible. The problem of course stems for the over-expense it pays for its Vehicles (90 points base!), lack of FoC swaps (seriously: Phoenix Lords make their Aspects Troops, please?) and in general some pretty blah units (Scorpions, Banshees, Dark Reapers, Warp Spiders, Shining Spears, need I go on?). Despite all this, Mechdar can put around 10 vehicles on the table and most of them are AV12 with annoying survivability traits such as Energy Shields or Holo-fields. Add in they are all fast skimmers and have reserve manipulations and they can be a pain to bring down. And that's how Mechdar generally work. They put out a bunch of S6 firepower, run circles around the opponent and hope their vehicle survivability remains high.



Of course the issue with Mechdar comes right down to that last line. 'Hope.' Great in Star Wars, crappy in wargames. If your opponent gets hot dice or your dice suck for even a turn, Mechdar crumble. Losing three Serpents is generally not something they can recover from and with the firepower available to some armies which doesn't care about AV12 with energy shields (i.e. lots of S8), these sort of turns are inevitable. Even without those sorts of turns, losing 1-2 Serpents on average rolls every turn is going to hurt the army to the point where it cannot compete. If I can on average easily kill all Eldar vehicles, leaving the player with relatively useless units inside, the game isn't going to go well for them is it? This has relegated Mechdar to a significant decline in 5th edition and whilst we shall cover their other 'major' builds in other posts, they still do oddly well against Grey Knights. This is of course in comparison to their other match-ups, this is all relatively of course. Let's take a look.

Grey Knights - Advantages


Grey Knights need no real introduction at this point. They are shiny Marines which shoot very well within 24" and counter-assault like no Marine with a stormbolter should. They are of course the psychic masters of the Imperium and excel within that 24" range. Let's take a look at advantages then.

Psycannons. This is just about an advantage every time Grey Knights take the field. Whilst Energy Shields stop rending against Wave Serpents and War Walkers, 7+6 is already penetrating AV12. Not getting rending in this case is irrelevant and with the amount of psycannons (generally 8+) a Grey Knights army can field, those 6's will show up. Of course, relying on just ~20ish S7 shots isn't going to drop multiple AV12 tanks quickly so the ever-hated Psyflemen steps in. Add in a bunch of twin-linked S8 shots which again don't care about Energy Shields and more importantly, have much greater range, and Serpents are looking a lot less durable.

Back this up with the ever common Stormbolter and when Wave Serpents/Falcons die, their infantry insides aren't far behind them. Mechdar is famous for its ability to run 2000 point armies with minimal infantry models and whilst some lists may use large Avenger or Storm Guardian squads, masses of Stormbolter firepower will see these squads evaporate quickly. Even tougher units like Scorpions or Wraithguard will fall quickly to the amount of stormbolter shots Grey Knights can put out. With psybolt ammo these also becoming very effective against the weaker vehicles of the Mechdar list such as Vypers or the less common War Walkers. Psybacks are also very effective at damaging these lighter vehicles which leaves the psycannons and psyflemen to target the tougher Serpents and spread the pain.

Following this up, even combat is an advantage for Grey Knights here. Whilst some Mechdar armies will try to shoe-horn in units such as Scoprions or Banshees, Grey Knights can easily wipe out the small Eldar units even when charged. Whilst more assaulty units such as Scoprions or Banshees could prove more problematic, counter-charges or good combat units such as Paladins and Death Cult Assasins (what Banshees wish they were) will see the Grey Knights through. Generally though, these type of units aren't seen or popular within Mechdar army builds due to the army premise and are more likely to be shredded by the S4/5 stormbolter fire before hand.

Eldar - Advantages

Runes of Warding. That's all that needs to be said right? Mechdar revolves around S6 firepower which is pretty decent at suppressing AV10-11. Guess what Grey Knight armies revolve around? Rhino chassis with Fortitude and Runes of Warding kicks this in the nuts. The important thing with Runes of Warding is not that spells fail ~50% of the time but perils happens very regularly. For Grey Knight squads casting through this is very dangerous as you can lose your Justicar/Knight of the Flame. For vehicles this is less scary but allowing your opponent free glancing hits on your stuff? Ya not a good idea and whilst sometimes the Grey Knight player will need to cast through Runes of Warding, more often than not just the threat will stop most psychic powers from being cast.

Mechdar obviously have a huge mobility advantage and combined with the 24" range of most of the Grey Knight weapons, can eek out a range advantage with their 36" and 48" range guns. Whilst this will often only last for the army as a whole a maximum of two turns as Grey Knights move into midfield, that's one to two turns of largely unopposed firepower. By using their mobility + range advantage, Mechdar can generate suppression to disrupt their opponent's battline and through sheer attrition of S6 firepower, drop tanks. What the mobility really allows the Mechdar general to do is pick the battlefield. By focusing on one flank of their opponent they can minimise return firepower and effectively only fight a portion of their opponent's army. This of course sacrifices midfield but with proper use of Dragons and tank shocking later in the game, the Mechdar army isn't sacrificing their ability to hold object

What's also very helpful for Mechdar in this match-up is their decent anti-infantry ability. The cost of this of course is not shooting down tanks but being able to throw a ton of S6 shots at Marines combined with large blast templates from Fire Prisms and Grey Knights will fall. Considering they have to hop out of their transports to bring most of their guns to bear, the combination of large (potentially AP3) blasts and masses of S6 can whittle down the Grey Knight numbers quickly. Remember though, this is where Grey Knights want to fight as they can bring a ton of firepower to bear in return so focus fire on the Mechdar's part is required to wear units down.

Mechdar can also use the Autarch to hide in reserves and therefore increase their lifespan. This should probably only be used against Grey Knight armies with a lot of ranged shooting such as six Psyfledreads as they lose any early advantage their mobility and potential range benefits can give them but denying your opponent two turns of shooting and then coming on has some appeal. To combine with this, it lengthens the lifespan of the Mechdar army a lot as well as there are fewer turns for the opponent to shoot it down. Against Grey Knights where S7 is the common anti-tank gun this can be very useful as they are only producing damage results 1/3 of the time (and only half of those are pens). With minimal melta, particularly fast melta, which other Space Marine armies can bring, the durability of Wave Serpents could see a little bump against Grey Knights.

Conclusion

It seems pretty good for Mechdar here and against lists without any Psyfledreads, I would say Mechdar have can match well with Grey Knights as they can out-range most of the army early on and the opponent is hoping for 6's to do anything with Psycannons and has little melta to go around. With Psyfledreads though, I think the Grey Knights edge becomes more apparent. Without sacrificing Fire Dragons to take them out, Eldar don't have the ranged dakka to drop the Psyfles and they can provide covering fire as the rest of the Grey Knights get into range. It just comes down to Mechdar again relying on the opponent to be miffed at AV12 tanks with energy shields. With a bunch of S7 shots that don't care about their rending being nerfed and S8 autocannons backed up with all the firepower in the world to take down Vypers, War Walkers and the infantry, well Mechdar are in the same boat as they against an army: "don't kill me too quickly."

Of course Mechdar have some advantages against Grey Knights in essentially removing their psychic powers from the game, extreme mobility and since Grey Knights often have to get out of their transports to fight at their most effective, aren't relying on their S6 to destroy Rhinos left right and centre. These advantages bring Mechdar closer to Grey Knights in terms of a match-up than against other Marine lists but they are more of an annoyance to Grey Knights than an actual threat, especially when ranged firepower such as Psyfledreads are on the table. This really stems from Runes of Warding as Mechdar can suppress Grey Knight mech and fudges with some of the powers Grey Knights have standard. The issue is, outside of Fortitude most of them aren't of much use against Mechdar as Grey Knights generally trump small Eldar squads in combat already.

Overall, it's bleak being an Eldar player atm but it's fun to match-up decently well against the new Marines. It's certainly not one where Mechdar have the advantage but thanks to a few little army quirks, the ravine isn't bottomless.

Comments (15)

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Against GK is one of the few places where Banshees can be not awful too.

But yeah, i wish they were GK assassins instead.
“Psybacks are also very effective at damaging these lighter vehicles which leaves the psycannons and psyflemen to target the tougher Serpents and spread the pain.”
This is “funny” as I do the opposite. In the first 2 turns, I prefer firing my psyback at falcon/prism to suppress them and use the psyrifledread vs the less solid vehicle (viper, then walker, then wave serpent). By doing so I’m ensuring a tactical advantages later in the game by having more units than my opponents…I'm thus not maximizing my firepower but I feel than I can allow part of the eldar mech to fire in the firsts turn if in enable me to take an advantages afterwards.
Funnily enough, the last game I played was against GKs. At 1800pts I was running a standard Mechdar template of Eldrad, Dragons in Serpents, DAVU Falcons and a squadron of War Walkers with Scatters. Facing down two Land Raiders full of DCA, two Psyflemen (1 Ven), a Vindicare, Coteaz and some other misc Henchmen with Melta.

I redeployed with Eldrad to reverse my refused flank, which meant for turns 1 through 3 I was effectively only shooting at the two Psyflemen. The rest of his army was behind buildings and couldn't get LoS to me. The caveat to this was that I only had two Dragon Serpents and needed the hulls to contest objectives late game, so couldn't afford to burn them on Psyflemen with two Land Raiders rolling around.

With 5 grav Tanks and 3 Walkers, over three turns I did no damage to the Psyflemen. None. No weapons gone, no immobilised. Shaken results got laughed off by Fortitude (Ld 10 tests are still passed half the time on 3D6) and cover saves took care of the rest. Meanwhile they shot down two Serpents, leaving me three Hulls to contest with. I managed to force a Draw (almost a win thanks to Eldrad and 5 Avengers raping a Land Raider full of DCA who failed their morale check and ran off their objective) simply due to passing freakish numbers of Fortuned cover saves and Holofields. If he'd had Psychic defence (which he would have in 2000pts) then it wouldn't have worked anywhere near as well.

Conclusion: Even with average luck (and it was average for most of the game), when an entire Eldar army can't kill (or even damage/supress) two AV12 vehicles in cover then it's time to drop them. Unless it's purely for shits and giggles, my Eldar are not coming out of my case til we get a new book. The only reason they still work in tourneys is if your opponent can't roll a 5/6 on two dice at the same time.
I have to disagree on Mech Eldar not being competitive. 3D6 effective neutralises Rune Priests and Librarians for the Marine Chapters and the speed they move around at is a real issue. Even worse is once you've penetrated the mech is the whole 'role 2D6 and discard the highest) which means a lot of the time you're only shaking them. Sure they're expensive but so's a Storm Raven and a Land Raider. Thanks to the lances they don't need to worry about AV14 either and Eldrad's a beast. If you're taking an 'all rounder' list then certain army builds are a complete pain to win against. Conversely of course they're quite easy to get a draw against because they don't have the troops to do anything with that movement advantage.
1 reply · active 712 weeks ago
Neutralises 50% of the time, all the time!

"Sure they're expensive but so's a Storm Raven and a Land Raider." Oh wow. Well, sure my whole squad of penitent engines is expensive, but so's a monolith. Right? Right? >_>

Also, I'd say they don't struggle with AV14 (much) due to having 3 very mobile squads of melta guns, rather than any lances, as the Bright Lances you can bring in mechdar are woefully unreliable.
Sorry thats some attrocious spelling in there but hopefully you get the viewpoint. I also similarly draw with Necrons and the twin monolith deciever/nightbringer build with the warriors held in reserve, the teleporting stuff around is a complete pain. Again conversely I've never come close to losing, its just the pinning stuff down.
1 reply · active 712 weeks ago
Crons are very good at drawing. I agree. And it's awesome. Underrated builds ftw [=
@Sethis: 5 hulls and 3 walkers at 1800? no wonder you find it hard. At 1750 you should field at least 5 hulls and 9 walkers or 8+ hulls. I would love to only lose a couple of hulls in the first few turns.
With 9 walkers, Eldrad, a Fortune/Guide Seer and 3 squads of 6 Dragons in scatter serpents with chin cannon, I have 1533pts spent with no Avengers and only three hulls. Please recheck your maths.
1 reply · active 712 weeks ago
Yes you can: remove the 2nd seer (eldrad can already do the work by himself) and you will have enough point to put 2 dire avengers squad in wave serpent...hence have 9 walkers + 5 hull. and if you switch the walker for falcon/fire prism you get in the 8+ hull
Never mind that apparantly two Avenger squads in Serpents are now 120pts (the cost of the Seer), Eldrad can cover 5+ hulls by himself with Fortune? That's a good one. That 1750 list also has 10 scoring infantry models in two squads of five, in two AV12 transports. Not exactly going to win many obj games that way.

At best you can get:

Eldrad

5 Dire Avengers x3

Falcon with Bright Lance, Holo-fields x3

6 Fire Dragons x3

Wave Serpent with Spirit Stones, Twin Linked Scatter Lasers, Chin Cannon x3

1623pts leaves you 127pts to buy something not in an Elites or HS slot, and my choice would be Vypers or a Fortune/Guide Seer to share the load with Eldrad. By dropping stones you can gain another 30pts if you feel like it.

This gets you 6 hulls on the table with 9 S8 AP2 shots at BS3 (sometimes twin linked) and 21 S6 shots at 24", going down to 12 shots at 36", again BS3 sometimes twin linked. With only 3 troops choices which cannot get out of their tanks without evaporating, and no template weapons to deal with Hordes.

Compare that to the firepower that a GK, Wolf or Guard army can put out at the same points cost and you'll see why we play to draw in those matchups, instead of playing to win.
Who said you needed Eldrad and an additionnal seer?
I used to play a five hulls, 3 holofields list with eldrad but he's not worth another hull below 2000pts in my opinion.
With another Fortune/Guide seer that's at least 340pts, or more than one fifth of the army. Here are 2 sample lists that you might like to try:

Haven't tried it yet but it looks good from ytth:

1 Farseer, 100 pts ( Guide ; Runes of Warding; Runes of Witnessing)

5 Fire Dragons, 190 pts
1 Wave Serpent (Shuriken Cannon; TL Shuriken Cannons)
5 Fire Dragons, 190 pts
1 Wave Serpent (Shuriken Cannon; TL Shuriken Cannons)
5 Fire Dragons, 190 pts
1 Wave Serpent (Shuriken Cannon; TL Shuriken Cannons)

10 Storm Guardians, 202 pts (Fusion Gun x2)
1 Wave Serpent (Shuriken Cannon; TL Shuriken Cannons)
10 Storm Guardians, 202 pts (Fusion Gun x2)
1 Wave Serpent (Shuriken Cannon; TL Shuriken Cannons)
10 Storm Guardians, 202 pts (Fusion Gun x2)
1 Wave Serpent (Shuriken Cannon; TL Shuriken Cannons)
10 Storm Guardians, 202 pts (Fusion Gun x2)
1 Wave Serpent (Shuriken Cannon; TL Shuriken Cannons)
5 Dire Avengers, 60 pts
5 Dire Avengers, 60 pts

1 Falcon, 130 pts (Shuriken Cannon; Shuriken Cannon)
1 Falcon, 130 pts (Shuriken Cannon; Shuriken Cannon)
1 Falcon, 140 pts (Spirit Stones; Shuriken Cannon; Shuriken Cannon)

2000pts

Remove a storm guardian squad for a 1800pts list and you got the 9 hulls with 6 melta totting squads. If you want more goodies scatter lasers for exemple you can remove a falcon but you still have 8.

And here is my current list with walkers:

Farseer, guide, runes of warding, singing spear 93
Autarch, fusion gun 80

5 fire dragons,wave serpent, Scatter laser, shuricanon, spirit stones 215
5 fire dragons,wave serpent, Scatter laser, shuricanon, spirit stones 215

10 storm guardians, 2 fusion gun, wave serpent, Scatter laser, shuricanon 217
10 storm guardians, 2 fusion gun, wave serpent, Scatter laser, shuricanon 217
5 Avengers, wave serpent, EML, shuricanon 190

3 Warwalkers, 4 scatter lasers, 2 EML 190
3 Warwalkers, 4 scatter lasers, 2 EML 190
3 Warwalkers, 4 scatter lasers, 2 EML 190

1797

My list has more ranged fire power and the ability to play with reserves but less resiliance.

With the increase of AP1 in 5th edition, holofields are no longer that reliable, especially with random game length. Having more hulls means more ranged firepower and more resilience to shake-locking and thus more influence on the game.

I think you should try it before discarding your eldars for they can still compete with the best codex.
I appreciate you suggesting alternative lists, and it's great that there at least some Eldar players still out there, but I'll try to explain why I think they are still far from competitive. Take the two lists you presented:

List 1:

100pts for a single power Farseer, who admittedly provides decent psychic defence, but for the same cost as a Libby only comes with 1 power, and that one power is nowhere near as good as a lot of the choices SM varients have available.

5 Fire dragons do not reliably kill tanks of AV13 and above. It is very easy to miss with 3/5 shots and then cause only a single damaging hit, especially vs AV14. With 6 men you tend to get at least 3 hits, resulting in at least 2 damaging hits, which is much better odds of destroying your target. That aside, they're fine.

Storm Guardians with Melta - yuck. Averages a single hit, with only a 50% chance to wreck even if it gets through. No firepoints, so have to disembark to do it, and are then stuck outside their ride being T3 5+ models that die like guardsmen in combat. Yes, you might be able to wreck a transport and blizzard down the contents with all your S6, but unless you get an "explodes" result then the hull is going to severely reduce your opportunity to fire at the passengers, and even 30 attacks from the Guardians is going to struggle to put down any kind of MEQs. (15 hits, 5 wounds, 1.6 or so dead). 200pts for that? Compared to the efficiency of GKSS, Grey Hunters or Meltavets? They're left in the dust I'm afraid.

I really don't rate Falcons with mixed weapons - you waste a gun every time you shoot.

List 2 I like a bit better, but you're going to have an extremely hard time of it vs Raider lists since you only have two fire dragon units and no fortune to keep them alive past turn 1.

Holofields are still extremely strong combined with Fortune for the simple fact that AP1 = Melta and Melta = 12" threat range. If your Falcons are inside 12" of a meltagun then you'd better have a good reason for it. Probably not worth it for Prisms due to supression on a 1-gun tank, but extremely good on Falcons for late game contests/claims.

At the end of the day, our 130pt tanks with BS3 and overpriced weapons get blown out of the sky all day long by 75pt Hydra, 55pt Fast Las/Plas, 125pt Long Fangs and 120pt Psyflemen who are immune to supression. Our age old trick of shooting onto an objective last turn is rapidly becoming worse and worse as everyone else is driving around in a vehicle themselves which we can't tank shock. We can kill 3 tanks per turn reliably against armies which field 10+ every time and lose ranged duels because although we have very survivable tanks, we lose the supression war due to having 1 tank to their 2, and S6 vs S7/S8 spam.

I don't claim to be the be-all and end-all of Eldar knowledge, but I don't see them performing in anything close to a top-level tournament these days. Every other 5th army simply gets more bang for their buck in every department.
What I'm trying to say is that you don't have to fight 2 to 1, by taking cheaper options you can field almost as many AV12 tanks as they have AV11. Most list around 1750points have 10 hulls or less (you can check the compilation in the side bar). You can have 8 or more.

Let's see:
wave serpent, scatterlaser, shuricanon, 5 dire avengers 185
5 space marines, razorback, lascanon, twin linked plasma 165

Mech eldar going overboard:
Farseer, doom, runes of warding 90
5 fire dragons, wave serpent, scatter laser, shuricanon 205
5 fire dragons, wave serpent, scatter laser, shuricanon 205
5 fire dragons, wave serpent, scatter laser, shuricanon 205
5 avengers, wave serpent, scatter laser, shuricanon 185
5 avengers, wave serpent, scatter laser, shuricanon 185
5 avengers, wave serpent, eml, shuricanon 190
5 avengers, wave serpent, eml, shuricanon 190
Fire prism 115
Fire prism 115
Fire prism 115
1800pts
10 hulls, 15 melta, 3 prism canons, 4 troops

Psyflemen are a pain sure, but they are not immune to suppression: with runes of warding they have 50% chance to fail and about 40% chance to take a glancing hit in their player turn(and thus to be suppressed for his following turn as well).

For falcons: when shooting at AV11 or marines which are the most likely targets of a falcon having 6S6 shots is much better than a single lance shot. I run all my falcons either with EML, shuricanon or scatter laser, shuricanon.

As for holofields: on one or two falcons, why not, but on 3 it's another wave serpent that I could field. As you said last turn tank shocking is no longer an option, so you need more fire power and more units to win the suppression game.

For the fire dragons: consider the odds, with 5 fire dragons you have a 70% chance of killing AV14, with 6 it goes to 76%. It means that having an additional dragon only helps you one game in 17.

Finally, storm guardians with melta: what happens when youonly have dragons to kill heavy tanks? You hesitate to commit them because you might need them later. With 2 or 3 storm guardians squads, even with the dragons gone, you still have melta to threaten land raiders. Plus storm guardians (especially with doom around) are still able to assault and finish that last melta gun marine or this remnant of an IG veteran squad. I've used them at a number of tourneys and games and they give you very nice options.
Sorrowshard's avatar

Sorrowshard · 684 weeks ago

I agree with parts of what both of you said here. Storm Guardians are easily the best troop choice and turning your nose up at 6pt melta guns (my DE would love some of these) is a bit fail, yes they are only bs 3 but they are reliable enough and if you really want to make sure, set things up so multiple squads can shoot the same target if needs be.

For now my Mechdar remain in the Bag though. If GW continue their pattern of subtly nerfed Xenos books and wildly OP Imperial books don't hold your breath for a new Eldar dex to make things better, if the DE book is any indication, then P lords will still suck the fat one (look at Drazhar and Harlequins will still be worse than both DCA and Purifiers etc whilst costing more.

To be fair perhaps it is wise on the part of GW, if they make an actual good xenos book there will be a LOT of crying, conversely I think DE was reasonably good but deliberately not as good as it could/should have been.

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