Greetings everybody, it's been a while and I've been off doing other grand things with my hobby that aren't exactly competitive but are awesome none-the-less, so hence my own quietness recently. Below is an email response to a Space Wolf army list posted in a series of forum posts on the Bolter and Chainsword as well as over on Yes The Truth Hurts in their forums.
"Hey Auretious, you commented on my wolf list on YTTH forums, said it was
kind of broken vs MCs. I was wondering what you thought of this
revision using logan.
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=237665&st=0#entry
2866286"
So I commented on the list on the Bolter and Chainsword forums as opposed to the YTTH forums (I don't even know if I'm registered there heh) and basically there were several lists and revisions that lead to this one with Logan. The original list was all dakka and no punch, would chew through transport spam and massed light to medium infantry and even give massed PA a run for its' money with how much torrenting it could lay down but it had weaknesses. It was mitigated a bit in his revised list which he also refined thanks to feedback on the YTTH forums:
Rune Priest
Tempests Wrath & Living Lightning = 100pts
2 Riflemen Dreadnoughts - 125x2 = 250pts
4 Wolf Guard
4xPA+Cb-melta, 1xTDA+SB+PW+CML = 155pts
4x5 Grey Hunters 120
1 Melta
1 Razor; TL-HB - 120x4 = 480pts
5 Grey Hunters
1 Flamer
1 Razor; TL-LC = 150pts
2 Dakka Preds = 170pts
5 Long Fangs w/4 ML's
1 Razor; TL-LC = 190pts
1495pts
36 infantry
10 vehicle
My own feedback was mixed:
"All I can say is I love the stupidity of designing a list to deal with vehicles and not Monstrous creatures or 2+ save guys. Lots of dakka is great for torrenting but high toughness (6+) 3+ or even 2+ save MC's are just gonna laugh in your face - you have to close to melta range to deal with them reliably and then they just chew you to pieces up close.
It's an okay list, certainly strong, but it reads too much into a vehicle saturated meta-game and that's a weakness right there. You need to build in more ability to deal with the armies this list fails at, as whilst it dakka's quite a lot, when a 'dex such as Tyranids looks at the army and laughs a bit inside, there are issues with the list as a whole which need to be addressed."
And so the next list was made and asked for a response and feedback:
Current Working List:
Logan = 275pts
3 Riflemen Dreadnoughts = 375pts
5 Wolf Guard 195
4 PA+Cb-melta, 1 TDA+SB+PW+CML
1 Razor; TL-HB = 195pts
4x5 Grey Hunters
1 Melta
1 Razor; TL-HB = 120x4 = 480pts
6 Long Fangs w/5ML's
1 Rhino = 175pts
Total = 1500pts
32 infantry
9 vehicle
Squ1rReL
So let's start with the obvious - Logan is not bringing anything to this list. He has no obvious unit to hide in and no transport ability. With 7 ablative wounds at maximum he will easily get torrented to death and the close in punch you are trying to achieve is gonna die hard and fast. That pushes you back to square one, you have dakka, but no punch, and moreover, you now are susceptible to psychic dominant armies such as Grey Knights and Tyranids walking all over you. You wanted a more mobile force and didn't like the feel of having to push in Long Fangs to the force because they are too immobile, so one alternative to that is to plonk in Auto-Las Predators (Predator with an Autocannon and Lascannon Sponsons) at 120pts a pop. It's more mobile firepower but is it the same bang for buck?
Long Fangs are included in almost every Space Wolf force out there in a competitive scene because there are very few units in the codex which give you such value for money in a support role. You have Riflemen dreadnoughts in there and that is shiny and gives you reliable anti-transport and anti-light vehicle killing power and a single unit of Long Fangs with 5 ML's is pretty bog standard, but so is the redundancy of 2 or 3 such units. The reason being that at str 8 AP 3 Krak missiles and the ability to split that firepower they can do a lot more damage to vehicles/MC's then a Rifleman can at a similar points cost. The Rifleman can move and fire but against a Tervigon the Rifleman will get 1 in 3 wounds through whereas the Long Fangs will drop off wounds for every wounding hit they land (ignoring cover here as it's easiest to and doesn't cloud ones judgment on why you take things). But both these choices fail against Tyrannofexes and Paladin Deathstars amongst others. 2+ saves combined with high toughness or multiple wounds just has both forms of support bouncing and 1 in 6 wounding hits will knock off a wound (or Instant Death a Paladin) and frankly, for the points you are paying for each this is ridiculous. This is why I run as standard 2 Lascannons in each of my Long Fang Units. Long Fangs are primarily a support unit aiming for big scary stuff which I can't deal with up close with bolter fire and raw combat attacks. Frag Missiles are great but do nothing vs big gribblies and heavy armour. Moreover, the extra strength of a Lascannon gives more reliability vs high end armour values and allows you to, shock horror (!), penetrate an AV 14 hull whereas the Krak Missiles just glance. This is also why a Las/Plas razorback is such a popular choice with Space Wolves because it adds more punch and can deal with a variety of threats.
Another approach to fill in gaps is to run Land Speeders. A Typhoon with a Multi-Melta and Typhoon Missile Launcher gives a solid gun boat that operates nicely at 24" and gets even better at 12". remember that the Frag Missiles of the Typhoon can be fired as defensive weapons so as moving and shooting the Multi-melta allows for the missiles to be placed on vehicles and praying for a good scatter into nearby enemy troops (it's fun when it works). A lot of people prefer the HB, but I like the extra melta ability for 10 extra points on a mobile firing platform as most of my dedicated support is largely static.
Yet another approach to compliment both your actual foot forces and your support forces is to run several thunder wolf cavalry with a Power Fist. 4-5 str 10 attacks vs armour or MC's can be quite devastating, especially when you combine charge them with several of the nutty fellows. Moreover at 75pts a pop they aren't that expensive and people will be put out enough by them to direct firepower into them instead of other threats within your army.
Finally, since the advent of the Grey Knight codex a lot of people are running Bolter-Backs (HB razorbacks) because well GK's can do it kind of okay, so why don't we do it but less well for a bit cheaper. I don't really understand the reasoning of this, nothing has changed for other armies - Heavy Bolters by themselves aren't great, and oooh wow twin-linked heavy Bolters must be awesome...not really, you go from hitting twice at str 5 AP 4 to 3 times most turns...it's not a defensive weapon either which means it ain't massive and the reliability of a HB vs transports or other big things well meh. This has been covered elsewhere. They work in GK's because at str 6 with Psybolt Ammo they are able to achieve far more, but we're playing space wolves, your basic guys can deal with the threats that HB's usually deal with almost as well if not better for the points. Now, ditching the Bolter-backs for plain old Rhino's also allows you to move and shoot the 2 melta shots from your top hatch without worrying about being caught in the open to do so. The enemy needs to first destroy your transport to get at your juicy troops inside and that's rather the point as the troops whilst decent aren't equipped to fulfill a dedicated assault role and are more close range fire-support. If you are running a transport on the Long Fangs a cheap Rhino is nice to use as cover for your troop rhino's and extra rides, but also a Las/Plas razorback means you work in a support tank as well as the static firepower base of the Long Fangs.
Putting it all together we get something like this:
Taak's 1,500 points of Flexible Space Wolves
HQ 1a) Rune Priest
Chooser of the Slain, Living Lightning, Tempests Wrath, Melta-Bombs, Wolf Tooth Talisman - 120pts
Elites 1) Rifleman Dreadnought - 125
Drop Pod w/SB - 35 = 160pts
Elites 2) 5 WG = 225pts
2 WG TDA+PW+Cb-melta 38x2 - 76
2 WG PA+Cb-melta+BP 23x2 - 46
1 WG TDA+Cb-melta+PW+CML - 68
Drop Pod w/SB - 35
Troops 1 to 3) 3x5 GH's, MG, Rhino - 115x3 = 345pts
Troops 4) 5 GH's, MG - 80
Las/Plas Razorback - 75 = 155pts
Fast Attack 1 & 2) TWC, BP+PFist - 75x2 = 150pts
Heavy Support 1) 2x5 LF's w/2ML+2Lascannons+Meltagun - 155
Rhino - 35 = 190pts
Heavy Support 2) 5 LF's w/2ML+2Lascannons+Meltagun = 155pts
Total = 1,500 points.
8 vehicles (incl. 2 drop Pods)
48 Foot
17-18 Kill Points.
NB: The Wolf Guard are interesting and open up lots of opportunities. Unless running a straight WG unit for the drop (hey look a decent combat unit vs heavy infantry with melta and missile fire to boot, huzzah!) the obvious split up is the TDA+CML to the GH's w/MG and Las/Plas razor giving you are move forwards and shoot Missile Platform with double melta and allowing the las/plas to set up in a ranged support or close in support role, the 2 PA+Cb-melta's to 2 of the 3 MG+Rhino GH units (allowing the RP to attach to the 3rd unit in Rhino for more mobile long range artillery suppoirt - go go Living Lightning!) and the TDA+Cb-melta WG to the LF units (they like living against incoming krak missiles!). Remember that if there is no dedicated Wolf Guard Unit left on the field then after you split them all off, then the opponent cannot claim a Kill point for killing off the Wolf Guard, so you do have the ability for some Kill point denial there as well. Moreover, they come with a drop pod so if the need to drop triple melta or even the full 5 melta and double Krak Missiles in your opponents face at point blank appeals or is needed on the first turn, then that option is also available.
NB 2: There is an oddity in the list to many people - The Drop Pod on the Rifleman Dreadnought. Why not a Rhino on the second Long fang Unit? It's rather simple - a Drop Podding Rifleman has the option of deploying normally on the board or dropping in and deploying with its own private cover provided. The advice here is to drop him on the extreme flank of an enemy where side shots into heavy armoured vehicles will be available from the get go and against some opponents even rear armour shots. Additionally, being able to shoot Tyranid Hive Guard with 4 twin-linked Autocannon shots on your first turn is very useful as well and will cause the Tyranid player to divert resources to deal with this threat on his or her flank. It's situational, yes, and not to be used every game, but it does give you a number of tactical as well as strategic options which other similar lists lack.
NB 3: There is a second oddity in the list - Meltaguns on the Long Fang Pack Leaders. You have a static firepower unit, why are you giving them Meltaguns? I'll expand on this in another article (maximising Long Fangs ftw! :D) at some point soon but in summary Pack Leaders don't always die when you'd like a HW to survive instead and sometimes you want to fire at units close up and only one unit not splitting your fire, and if you aren't splitting your fire then the Pack Leader gets to shoot and as the Pack Leader is shooting vs a high end target, what's a bolter going to do? Not much, but a meltagun will fry something. The attached ablative wound abusing Wolf Guard in TDA also have combi-melta's so you have double melta in yet another place in the list and more importantly you can swap in a PA WG w/Cb-melta and hop inside a rhino for some close in flexible firepower from the top hatch as sometimes you will also have to redeploy your Long fangs and what better way to do that then with some Rhino support. This isn't everyone's cup of Tea and I have yet to see other people do it, but I like it and it is yet another neat little trick to the force that people won't expect.
Concluding Thoughts:
So there you go Squ1rReL, a list that is a bit more refined yet still gives you the mobile feel you were after whilst playing to some of the core strengths of the Space Wolf Codex. Remember whenever you are messing with Wolf Guard to make them as flexible as possible they need to be able to operate in many roles across your army either together or split off in different ways. You might want to try dropping the Cb-Melta TDA WG into the GH units on foot and playing a hybridised foot list once in a while, but there is a lot of flexibility within the list because of where you can assign the WG as well as the Rune Priest. The one key note I'd like to put here is not to run the TDA+CML WG with the Long Fangs. You want to maximise your target saturation abilities both for the enemy shooting at you as well as what you can shoot at the enemy. Having all your support models in one place especially when the TDA WG can move and fire the CML is a poor move as a general. I would love to hear your thoughts as well as that of other players here, and in the mean time, I think I'm gonna run this list for a while as something different to my more esoteric lists of late.
Have a great week everybody,
Luke.
Logging you in...
Squ1rReL · 709 weeks ago
Random · 709 weeks ago
Meltaguns on pack leaders is not only wasteful of points, it's wasteful of bullet catchers. You're blurring their purpose with some nifty little trick that's not worth it, especially at the oh so tight 1500.
Calling a 2 shot terminator a wound catcher for anything else in a squad is retarded; realize this. The same can be said for giving him a weapon he's not going to shoot over his 2 shot weapon. Foot double meltagun units is stupid, if you want scoring cyclones leave the grey hunters with a flamer and the guard with CML and no other useless upgrades. That should be the name of this list not "W" as in win but double U as in "Useless Upgrades."
It's really nice to see the chooser as most idiots don't take it, but 2 psychic shooting powers in what seems to be trying to be a mech heavy list is sad. As is the wolf Tooth talisman, are you that scared of psychic shooting attacks against your guys in bunkers, or at all come one now.
MM typhoons is counter-intuitive and not worthwhile. And if you think 2 lascannon shots per unit at av 14 is enough to scare someone you're sorely mistaken. Because it's either a russ or a raider or a lololith. The first two should have cover for the first couple important turns, and the last shouldn't matter because you should win no matter what. If you're worried about av14 the answer is melta; cover, cost, and dice are against you with LC plain and simple.
Oh and a general rule of thumb for fighting deathstars or MC, "Let them eat rhinos."
Singular dreads and singular razorbacks is silly. Saturation keeps you alive, solitude gets you stunned or ignored. Only 8 vehicles 2 of which are drop pods is asking to be smacked about. And if I'm not mistaken you don't have 48 wounds of infantry.
For all your worries about MC spam and paladin deathstars your list doesn't bring much capability to combat said "Threats." If you see either at 1500 you should be thanking your lucky stars to be perfectly honest.
I'm going to be frank here, at 1500 points I don't think that double melta, wolf guard, or even long fangs are necessary (I understand long fangs are nice, but there are other good options at this limit). I don't run any of those at that points level and I think 1500 is SW's best point limit by far. I bring 5 troops in las plas and if you kill/ scare a few I don't really care as you should be more than handled by that point.
I know you're trying to be unique and spin lists your own way, but there are some major flaws above that need to be addressed. It's nice to see you mention YTTH without whinging about stelek being a meanie, so internet cookie for that.
AuretiousTaak 39p · 709 weeks ago
I like your bluntness Random, I can respect that as I too am very blunt and can come off as an arsehole like you so I can relate. :)
To each point:
MM Typhoons are quite useful - you obviously haven't played with them, whereas a great many people across all the space marine codicies that can use them have, it's, as I said, one or the other HB or MM, some people prefer the HB others prefer the MM, I like the 3 str 8 shots at 24" for support, it's nifty and does quite a bit of damage.
I did not say the 2 lascannons were there to scare people, it increases your options against AV 14 because sometimes you don't have anything EXCEPT the LF's to deal with it and those lascannons increase the chances dramatically. More importantly, I don't know about you but I got sick of rolling a 1 for ap against av 10 and doing nothing whereas a lascannon gets me a glancing hit, moreover as explained abvove the lascannons, like your krak missiles aren't just shooting heavy armour, there's much more juicier targets out there with wounds and high end armour saves that don't get those saves against your lascannons compared to your Krak missiles (what do your krak missiles do vs a Tyrannofex? Bounce 5 in 6 wounds, bravo great powers of deduction there - play against more armies not just MECH! - at 15pts each more then a Missile Launcher, or, as a point of reference, 1 Grey Hunter more each, I find they are quite a useful add on. Feel free to disagree but your point on them being useless because of cover cost and dice can be said of anything including your vaunted meltaguns which so happen to need 5 ablative bodies minimum before you get 1. 2 lascannons on a minimum sized longfang unit is a cool 95pts a meltagun on a GH unit is 80pts, 15pts difference but you have 1/4 the range of me and oh look can shoot at one target not two...similar concept with Wolf Guard, gotta have at least 3, and 1 shot meltaguns vs unlimited shot mg's or lascannons is also another nice comparison. Think about what the lascannons will be shooting as it's not just armour as you seem to think. That said, what about people who run Auto-Las Predators as their long range support? Is the lascannon then as useless in your eyes?
You can let MC's and deathstars eat rhino's but that won't work vs good players with clever lists.
I made a typo with the 48 wounds and didn't pick it up I meant 38 though there is 36 there, this is because I revised the list as I typed the article and trimmed to models to make room for an extra vehicle and not revising the number. Thankyou for picking up on it. :)
Singular Dreads and razorbacks aren't silly, that's like saying singular Rune priests are silly - there's no saturation of anti-psyker funsies in the list so that's got to be bad. The point you miss about saturation is to do with Redundancy Across the Force Organisation Chart. Riflemen are redundant with Long fangs and that las/Plas razor is redundant with the Long fangs as well. To a point the TWC are also redudnant to the LF's and th las/plas razorback. It's not obvious, but we are talking Space Wolves, they thrive on flexibility within the same list from game to game and as yous ay, 1,500 points is not a huge points value. You don't want to be predictable, being predictable hard counters you, having redundant saturation across the FOC is a way to mitigate this. It just involves you using your brain a bit more.
Do you play against Tyranids by chance? Stock Standard Tyranid army is a pair of tervigons 6-9 hive guard 2 tyrannofex and hive tyrant or a third Tervigon, a bunch of gaunts and points pending a Harpy or two. The Nid dex doesn't allow for much else ina vehicle dominant edition such as 5th edition 40k. There is enough high strength low ap weapons to split between the key targets in such tyranid builds, it just involves you playing smartly to apply it, but that's being a good general in general. paladins are instant deathed by meltaguns by the way, just saying.
Random · 709 weeks ago
Yes I know of Tfexes, I love them for nids, and think you should bring 1-2 in most nids lists (2k more appropriate). No against nids there is almost no situation where I would fire missiles at a TFEX. Meltaguns cost 5 points in the SW codex, lascannons cost 25 apiece. Yes you "have" to bring 5 ablative wounds, but those worthless guys are troops, so you're bringing them anyways, so maybe they're not as worthless as you want to make out. Despite bringing them in your own list, cutting down your own arguments for some reason? Paying 60 points just to upgrade some long fangs into lascannons is not worthwhile, las/plas backs are about the best troops option in the space wolf codex at 1500 points. If you're so concerned about 2+ saves bring the lascannons on other options and keep the long fangs cheap (that's their only way to stay viable at 1500). Predators are good choices in a lot of lists, I don't bring AC/LC at 1500 points, but they're not terrible choices, you just have to realize you're not going to stop av14 with LC. Why are you putting words in my mouth I never said LC were worthless, I bring 5 to 1500 points, I just bring them in better slots than you do, a general weakness of your list.
There is no clever list that will get around rhinos moving fast to block movement of MC's. Just because you think you're playing a different game, doesn't make clever lists good; it probably means you wasted points for something not worthwhile.
Singular of anything is silly. That's why paladins suck so much, you can only afford 1 maybe 2 units of them. Comparing a Rune Priest to a dreadnought is such a worthless comparison I question your sanity. A rune priest is a necessary HQ, 100 points of utility, psychic defense, and LD. Good players don't bring 400 points of Rune Priests because 4 living lightnings aren't efficient anti-tank for that cost, and are not worthwhile. Bringing 3 Riflemen dreads for 375ish is a good choice because they are, not only for firepower, but for tying squads up, and the survivability of the chasis/loadout. Riflemen may bring similar armaments as las/plas backs or long fangs but the mixture of the three don't have the same survivability. A weakness of your list is that it concentrates your ranged anti-tank into 2 av11/12 vehicles, and 2 foot squads giving all of your opponents guns wonderful targets to silence.
Yes I play against nids, I helped develop my friends ard boyz nid list. And I actually bring more anti-Tfex options than you do with 5 lascannons.
spaguatyine 20p · 709 weeks ago
Paying 60 points just to upgrade some long fangs into lascannons is not worthwhile, las/plas backs are about the best troops option in the space wolf codex at 1500 points" I am guessing you also bought this off the internet. 75 points for 1 lascannon shot or 2 plasma shots for a razorback is the best option for space wolf troops. NO! I mean why not pay as you say 60 points for 4 lascannons that can split fire and hit double the amount of targets with quadruple the amount of shots? Oh yeah..Longfangs are not cost effective. They are the most cost effective Heavy in the codex.
spaguatyine 20p · 709 weeks ago
Roland Durendal · 709 weeks ago
AuretiousTaak 39p · 709 weeks ago
Roland Durendal · 709 weeks ago
AuretiousTaak 39p · 709 weeks ago
[quote]Random:
I'm going to be frank here, at 1500 points I don't think that double melta, wolf guard, or even long fangs are necessary (I understand long fangs are nice, but there are other good options at this limit). I don't run any of those at that points level and I think 1500 is SW's best point limit by far.[/quote]
Hang on you don't run long fangs at 1500pts, ever, nor do you run wolf guard at such points, ever, nor do you believe that double melta is necessary at such a points value.
Hmmmm.
*Nods sagely*
You've not played againsta blood nagels player who runs 3 librarian furioso's and 2 librarians all with Fear of the darkness have you? A bunch of devastators in support and your vaunted 5 las/plas are dead or suppressed and then you are running off of leadership 6 morale checks on those units...done enough, you are kept at arms length or forced off the board more then an average number of times. If you had a Wolf Guard in the units you'd be leadership 6 and pss on average dice so still stand a chance at countering that cheese though with single melta shots vs av 13 Dreads and no long fang support and your las/plas also dead, th rest of your list better be able to handle it. If you're playing against a prick who is running the list for shiggles he'll also have 3 naked predators and 3 flamestorm predators to laugh at you and at 1500pts you are facing 9 AV 13 vehicles and don't have the reliable tools that the vast majority of non-comp space wolves lists run as standard to counter such random stupidity. My list can deal with that stupidity, from what you've described, you can't.
Chooser is bog standard, as you say most idiots don't take it because they are idiots, i like how you have implied I am an idiot but that's okay we've established we are both arseholes so I'm happy being called an idiot by a 'Random' net person who runs space wolves at 1500pts only and doesn't run them at higher points because he doesn't have the skills to modify the army to the higher levels of points play nor at the preferred level of play you mention do you run Long Fangs, Wolf Guard or double melta (and as you don't have wolf guard you can't even cheaply afford 3-10 melta shots in a unit, so sad) and so the least of your problems is cheap leadership 9 and melta armour busting ability redundant and indeed saturated (you used the word agsainst me but don't put it into play from your own comments, this is odd) across the whole army and well, all I can think to call you is an Idiot.
Okay, i probably shouldn't have insulted you, but you did it first and I'm a child at heart. Seriously, how many seals do you play that you don't run any of the things that help make a space wolf army halfway decent?
As to flaws in the list, it's 1,500pts, at such a level you can't cover everything adequately, it doesn't have quite the number of vehicles I'd like but 6 mobile and 2 huge ass immobile ones are still decent for numbers; asides from that it lcks flamers which puts me on edge, i like flamers they are useful and underrated on GH units, i tend to always run GH units at 5 strong with a single flamer, but the list plays differently to most of my other lists which only tend to have 15 GH's at 1,750pts or so and you aren't looking to close the distance with those GH units as you need to in this level of play to bring all abilities to play.
Finally, Wolf tail talisman is how many points? 5 points. Where would you spend 5 points in this list? Where? I did it on the Rune priest because I could and look redundant anti-psyker kit woot! The combi-meltas on the TDA+CML WG are 5 points each that's 10points and the MG's on the LF's are 10 points each so you have 35 points to spend. Guess what that was - a las/plas razorback upgrade to a rhino, but the melta's across so many units are far more stronger and add more options of play to the army as a whole. Go back and read the article again - what happens when you have a pack leader left and nothing else except the WG attached, no heavy weapon LF's? It happens mate, you have 2 bolter guys. Wow. Instead we now have double melta as an option. It's a 15 point option to improve the effectiveness of units within your army, that's 1 whole Grey Hunter. take that Grey Hunter, I'll take 1 one off shot and 1 unlimited shot meltagun any day.
have a great day,
Luke.
Random · 709 weeks ago
No, at 1500 points, I don't run wolf guard, double melta, or long fangs. With most vehicles being av10-13 at lower points levels, and sometimes 99% rock av 14 lists I don't find them as necessary as at higher points where people bring 15 av12 targets. This is my personal list preference and what I've found to be effective at this crippling points range.
Spending 725 points so your gimmick army can scare units is funny. Especially when you're going to be shooting at razorbacks in cover before having a chance against my units disembarking, so no your strawman army of doom doesn't scare me, because leaving alone the fact it's a terrible army in general, it won't be scaring off my army as carelessly as you make out. If you have wolf guard in the units you'd be ld 7 for fear tests, and that would actually pass tests on average dice (do you self edit).
Here's another strawman army thrown out just to berate me, 9 av 13 vehicles, which while annoying, is not frightening. Unlike you I don't field unmounted power armor units on foot, I don't have the majority of my army in av11 with little/ no saturation, and very few armies are going to outrange/ outgun me. 3 Naked preds, and 3 flamestorm baals suck, and is a terrible basis for an army. Durability sure, threat nonexistant. That leaves your Furioso (however they are equipped) as my real threats, and whatever your troops are as well.
The chooser comment is necessary as 90% of the sw lists I read have two shooting powers and no chooser. For the utility and bs 5 for your shooting attacks the 10 points is mandatory. Once again you put words in my mouth saying I don't run wolves above 1500 points; which is untrue. I think wolves are best at 1500 points, but I do have a very different 2k army with them. At 2k I do bring long fangs and double melta btw, if that makes you feel more credible in some way. After all is said and done wolf guard with combi-meltas spattered about get expensive, and I haven't found them to be worthwhile. They are not "cheap" ld 9 and I don't enjoy bringing 6 men troops units, no matter what others I truly respect say. It's part of the design philosophy of my 2k list; no easy killpoints, berate me for this if you wish.
The game changes so much at 1500 points, that I don't find wolf guard, double melta, or long fangs as worthwhile as my other choices. I find that armor saturation works better at this lower points bracket, but the armies equipped to do it well, 90% of the time give up too much threat for their saturation, I do not give up too much, just some ;)
It's not the problem that it's 1500 points that makes your list bad. It's the design philosophies of singular units that enemies will take advantage of. If you fight DE, they will melt your army, venoms kill long fangs first turn, blasters shake and destroy the rest of your army, simple targets for simple players easy to beat. Flamers on GH units are all well and good, I don't give them a second glance past this points limit, but that's just me. Counting drop pods as part of your "vehicle" saturation is silly. An av12 open-topped, immobilized, 1 weapon vehicles doesn't really count it's 2 glances from death or 1 pen, and by it's very nature likely doesn't have cover.
The problem is not the 5 points by itself, by itself it's no big deal. It's when added with the other points waste. With 10 in hq, 5 in elite, and 60 in hs I can upgrade 2 rhinos to lasplas or just buy another, if you drop both drop pods you could buy another. As useful as your tricksy ideas are, I don't put enough faith in them as opposed to sheer firepower. If your pack leader is the last person to die in a squad, you're not allocating properly, or your dice suck ass. You want the spare wound leader to die first, especially at 1500 points where there are less threats on the field shooting at two different units is overrated. If you have the pack leader and a CML attached you don't have a useless unit, you have a double missile unit with 1 spare wound, giving them both combi meltas is just not efficient and misusing their threat ranges (thus retarded).
AuretiousTaak 39p · 709 weeks ago
P.S. YTTH is another major 40k blog out there. It's on the links off of this sight. Stelek is blunt and arrogant and to the point and he makes strong lists. His delivery can be a bit in your face and he doesn't understand the Australian tournament scene at all (at least he didn't when I wrote on YTTH, indeed i didn't fully appreciate the scene and its' intricacies either but that's okay different scene and different approaches to being competitive), but he gives decent advice a lot of the time (not always mind). Why should we whinge about that? That said, you should pay attention to what Stelek is a proponent of, you'll find a lot of the things I've said above (double melta, wolf guard, long fangs, redundancy across FOC) Stelek also talks about as do many 40k bloggers/authors. We can't all be so wrong can we?
Random · 709 weeks ago
When you try to validate your opinions by grabbing Stelek's coattails and completely ignore a lot of what he's about it makes you look like a buffoon.
Just because I think some things are less necessary at lower points levels doesn't make anyone absolutely right or wrong. I think double melta is less successful at lower points limits, just like I think long fangs are too expensive and your only unmounted unit, and wolf guard are not only expensive, but the ld bump is not worthwhile when my 5 troops are more often than not expendable, because I brought 5 I can afford to lose some.
AuretiousTaak 39p · 709 weeks ago
What I find offensive is this statement by you:
"I think event horizon was NOVAesque so that deserves respect, but why should Stelek devote time to a backwards (when it comes to 40k) and uncompetitive country (he does the same thing for Austin leet 40k). "
So Australia is a backward and uncompetitive country?
You realise this is an AUSTRALIAN Blog yeah?
that a good deal of the authors including Kirby are in fact Australian?
That many, many people walk away from this blog having learnt a great deal more about competitive play because a bunch of Aussies helped significantly there.
Oh wait, apparently you don't and we're all backward and uncompetitive, maybe we should hop off the Vassal ladder league as well because we're just seals with no idea how to game at all.
Bravo.
Random · 709 weeks ago
I remember you from ytth, most of your articles were blah fantasy or ignore comp.
Settle down dude, what I said is true and non-sensational. Most of Australia is comp infested, therefore backwards when viewed from a competitive standpoint.
I didn't knock this site, I didn't knock competitive tournaments, and I didn't knock kirby or you for playing in comp or non comp. I said that australia is backwards for being such a major comp scene, until that changes why should we learn to play within your boring play structure?
This site does a decent job of competitive discussion, and I'm sure helps quite a few people around, but too often articles boil down to weak willed all of the above options are fine.
AuretiousTaak 39p · 709 weeks ago
This isn't a case of misplaced nationalism, this is a case of you don't understand our system here, you are under the impression that players who play in a comp environment also must suck in a non-comp environment in terms of competitiveness as players. But really this shows how backwards your own understanding of the world from a gaming point of view in 40k is.
there is also a difference between Mordheim and Fantasy. But oh no, again, not paying attention to details.
Random · 709 weeks ago
As far as comp goes Australia is like everywhere else in the world except 5 years behind... got it.
I'm not saying anything about your players or your skill levels, my claim is any win under comp conditions is rendered invalid from a competitive standpoint. To me that also includes people who win on paint, sportsmanship, etc, as they have no relation to competition. Once again you're putting words in my mouth, twisting what I say; not that it truly matters as it won't ever matter until Australia is for the majority comp free, like it is in the competitive world.
So I'm expected to give a fuck about the difference between a poorly designed game article and a no player base article, yawn. You could call me out on details all you want, but I could easily reciprocate that argument, this was more enjoyable when you tried to refute my actual game references, now you're just boring.
VIC5 · 709 weeks ago
But flexibility does, and this list happens to have it in spades.
- I like rifle dreads, but when they are firing at front armor it can be frustrating. Being able to drop pod 1 first turn into side armor arcs is awesome. Or it can be deployed in the back if you do not need those side-shots.
- Being able to drop pod the wolf guard for a melta-strike or flex them into squads are quite nice options to have. I wouldn't drop them all. In fact, I'd be more likely to flex them all into appropriate squads and drop the pod as an extra piece of terrain. But that does not nullify the usefulness of having a mini melta-strike option.
- The grey hunters are a bit bare, but hey there are lots of them and they come with tanks too; don't forget that flexing the power armor wolf guard into them also adds weaponry and leadership to the squads, so they are not as bare-bones as they first look. In fact, the packs I used to run just had 2 more guys and some melee weapon upgrades; but I had less packs and no razor-back. They can anti-tank and they can anti-infantry, they can shoot and they can fight, if you have the packs work together.
- A single razor-back wouldn't be armor saturation, but this one has vehicle buddies full of dangerous things, so it doesn't stand out as much as one would think. My codex marine army also had 1 razor and the army did just fine because there were other vehicles with it.
- Thunder-wolf cav are a go, they are like missiles of death and very solid vehicle hunters.
- The long fang packs have got to be the most interesting. Yes, everyone knows that all missiles is very effective and efficient. My experience has been this as well. But I can tell you there are times I didn't have a lascannon or 2 and wished that I had. Devastators don't find mixed weaponry quite as effective or efficient because they can't split fire. Long fangs can split fire and mixing is not bad for them in my opinion. Also, seeing a special weapon on a long fang leader is odd, I will admit, especially a short-range melta. But what they hey you never know when you might need one. I myself have sometimes found myself with extra points and nothing to logically spend 'em on, besides giving a long fang pack leader a plasma gun (taken for it's longer range, meshes well with lascannnons for ap2 goodness, as well).
All in all, I think the list is quite good for 1500 points. Sure there are weaknesses (for me it's kind of light on melee options for a Space Wolves list, and I see points being spent on stuff that might not be used (drop pods, melta on long range units)). But on the whole, the list is (very) adaptable and flexible to different battles and situations. At 1500, where you can't cover all the bases you'd like, I think this list does a good job of being prepared.
Bartali · 709 weeks ago
It's also partly because Stelek took Heavy Bolter Razors to Nova, I seem to remember Kirby writing an article about it at the time.
Of course, Stelek's list may or may not have been a joke list to prove a point
Spaguatyrine · 709 weeks ago
@Squirl and everyone else. "this list is a soup sandwhich". I believe I helped to prove the idea that you don't have to have redundancy in units to be successful. Units that have a reduncdancy in purpose or similar purposes that work well together are effective. Your comment of a soup sandwhich is what I was told at Nova when they looked at my army on the table before the game.
@Hevay bolter razorbacks-They are ok in 40k. It is true the Grey Knights do them better. I don't like them to be spammed though and only use 1. Av11 is easy to pop and too many killpoints in any size army for me. Space Wolves do have better options when it comes to longrange firepower without needing to have tons of twin linked heavy bolters around.
@Las/Plas Razors-They are ok also. They are not the end all be all in my opinion either. A few hear and there yes, but blood angels do these better. We don't have to use everything that everyone else has to be good. I only use 1or 2.
Spaguatyrine · 709 weeks ago
Runepriest vs. MC, Jaws is the 2nd best ability in the book. Jaws will make Tyranids cry. Take it and living lightning together with the chooser. Against tyranids you can reliably take out large creatures from the safety of your rhino's. Against things like Wraith lords, the living lightning works well from across the table. Either way, tempests wrath is kind of useless in my opinion as it only helps so much. I know some people swear by the ability but I would rather have something that is going to kill you. And the jaws does take care of a large piece of this articles original idea vs monstrous creatures.
Spaguatyrine · 709 weeks ago
Dreads are a mystery to me and I am going to start playing just 1. I have never seen so many dreadnoughts than I did at Nova this year, Plus with the rise of the dark eldar codex, the need to fight off the beast packs will increase. A dread can hold a pack for the whole game. But spamming them is not effective and just make you a gun line that guard can do much better. Plus you can't take scouts or wolfguard which are better anyways.
At 1500 points you should have a runepriest, 4 troop choices, 2 longfangs, 1 unit of scouts, 1 unit of wolfguard. The rest you can fill in with what you want. I believe this is neccessary to having a solid base for space wolves.
Remember, you DONT HAVE TO SPAM TO BE COMPETITIVE IF YOU BUILD YOUR LIST TO WORK WELL TOGETHER!
Squ1rReL · 709 weeks ago
Squ1rReL · 709 weeks ago
Dreadnaught; 150 (Assault Cannon; TL-Autocannon)
Drop Pod
5x Wolf Guard; 210
4x Combi-melta
1x Powerfist
1x TDA + CML
Drop Pod
5x Wolf Scout; 85 (1x Melta)
5x Grey Hunter; 115 (1x Melta)
Rhino
5x Grey Hunter; 115 (1x Melta)
Rhino
5x Grey Hunter; 115 (1x Melta)
Rhino
5x Grey Hunter; 75 (1x Flamer)
2x Thunderwolf Cav; 125 (1x Powerfist)
6x Long Fang; 210 (3x Missile; 2x Lascannon)
Razorback (TL-Heavy Bolter)
5x Long Fang; 190 (4x Missile)
Razorback (TL-Lascannon)
1500
44 Infantry
8 Vehicles (2 Pods)
antique_nova · 703 weeks ago
basically, if you can get a melta gun in range with your long fangs, your probably fucked.