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Friday, October 21, 2011

Dark Eldar - Defensive to Aggressive

Following on from the article last night regarding Dark Eldar, we're going to look at two examples of a mixed strategy for Dark Eldar. We'll be using my Dark Eldar list from 2000 points and playing against a list which it can outrange (Purifier spam) and a list which it has no hope of outranging (Thunderbubble). We're going to assume Dark Eldar won the first turn for both games and the same board will be used with the same deployment. Normally one wouldn't use the same deployment obviously but it works okay in both cases and minimises the variables we need to discuss. Both games are going to be Seize Ground with five objectives spread evenly (so a mix of NOVA and normal missions).

Game 1 is against a Purifier list which the Internet thinks is all the rage and simply trashes Dark Eldar. It's Crowe, Vindicare Assassin, 4x6x Purifiers w/2x Psycannons, Hammer, 3x Halberds, Psyback, 2x5x Purifiers w/2x Psycannons, Hammer, 2x Halberds, Psyback, 3x Psyfledread. Personally this is a pretty blah list as you're making the little units of Purifiers attempt to do everything but it does bring a lot of firepower to bear which threatens everything Dark Eldar have. See here for a Grey Knight and Dark Eldar comparison.

Deployment





Here's the deployment. Remember this deployment is a 'pre-determined' deployment to use as an example so isn't perfect for Dark Eldar. Since we are playing a list which we outrange however there are a few things we can do. The aim with our Turn 1 movement is to force the Purifiers out of their transports to shoot their Psycannons (which have a 38.9" threat range in a moving transport) which exposes them to mass splinter fire and counter-assaults from Hellions and Beastmasters OR keep the Psybacks moving 6" to keep the Psycannon threat range down and thus suffer less hits across multiple targets. This in essence is the exact same choice we discussed for Dark Eldar in the previously linked post but for Grey Knights - are they going to alpha strike and bring all of their units to bear at once or play more cagily and go for a midfield/midgame dominace? Some of the Dark Eldar firepower will be lost as we re-mobilise to one side and unless they're lucky they're not going to be able to shoot down the Dreadnoughts until later when our Reavers come into play.

The Grey Knight deploys defensively with majority cover on their vehicles and the ability to go to either side of the board. This means their Dreadnoughts will be in range 99% of the time and their Psybacks should be in range with their 6" movement. Normally when one needs to get across the board to get into range you deploy in a line and trust in cover and vehicle durability to see you through. This stops your tanks getting each other stuck. With Fortitude however we can ignore this pretty reliably and thus only Immobilised results screw up our parking lot.

Dark Eldar Turn 1

We see the right flank moves quickly (24-36") except for the Ravager which uses the LoS blocking terrain to hide from the right flank. This loses some firepower but also forces the Grey Knights to come towards the army on the left flank or go around the BLoS terrain. This means the far right Psybacks will need to move 12" to get their Psycannons in range and thus expose them to fire. As you can see from the Purple arc - they are out of optimal threat range of all the vehicles - they can jump out and shoot the Hellions if they like but with 3+cover/FNP they are pretty durable against small arms fire.

The rest of the Dark Eldar army also moves laterally to keep out of range of Psycannons as much as possible. The Psybacks, Vindicare and Psyfledreads will always be in range so you suck their hits up and try and get cover as much as possible. The Hellions and Beastmasters move into positions where if the Purifiers jump out, they will get swamped.


Let's play some "what happens next" and use Vassal dice to determine this. Shooting unloads and Dark Eldar get reasonably statistical results in terms of kills but don't do much suppression - this isn't really an issue with Grey Knights since they are very likely to ignore these results anyway. Mass poison fire only drops one Purifier (though explosions killed three more) and the Dark Eldar brace for impact. By opening the tin cans on the left, those Grey Knights have to move to get within 24" range (therefore no 8 S7 rending shots from standing still) and the other Psybacks have to move 12", forego their own shooting and expose the Purifiers to firepower. Or they move 6" and shoot the Psybacks and keep the Purifiers protected for another turn as they move into position. If the Dark Eldar army had rushed forward, they may have gotten some more Blaster shots off but would also be suffering from all the static Psycannon firepower and Psybacks. By staying away they are more likely to suffer either Psybacks or moving Psycannons and thus force the Grey Knight player to react. Much better!

Grey Knight Turn 1


The Grey Knights move up and for the most part use their Psybacks to shoot with one Purifier squad being dropped out. The Grey Knights could have done this with all of their army and gone for a counter-alpha strike but since the Dark Eldar army is far away, the would have only gotten then Psycannons instead of the Psycannons + Psybacks. It still has its merits as the Dark Eldar then has to deal with 30+ Purifiers at once but also commits the Grey Knight army.

With the Psybacks + Psyfles shooting a lot of the Dark Eldar army gets poked pretty hard. A couple of Psycannons manage to inch themselves into range as well and we see two Venoms die as well as two Ravagers. The 3rd Ravager is stunned as is a Venom and another loses one of its cannons. A pretty good turn of shooting from the Grey Knights with above average vehicle kills but not  unexpected with lots of S6-8 shooting and AV10-11 open-topped vehicles. However, there are now some Purifiers exposed to the Dark Eldar's excellent anti-infantry and the remaining part of the army is still a decent distance away from the rest of the Dark Eldar army.

Dark Eldar Turn 2


Now is the time for Dark Eldar to be potentially aggressive and in this case they do. If they had a fully mech'd army it may have been wiser to kite some more and move away from the Grey Knights to keep more of their Purifiers out of play. Since we have a mixed army list with some aggressive infantry units (Hellions + Beastmasters) pushing now is an option. We do this by sending our Reavers and the aforementioned units towards the three de-meched Purifier squads (combat drugs was +1A btw). The rest of the army mobilises as much as possible to get some good shots off - this causes one more Razorback to wreck and another to be shaken - again probably statistically average in terms of kills but a little low on damage results though this is less important against Grey Knights with Fortitude.

A combined mass of posion shots and combat however sees a lot of Purifiers get munched. But now of course the Hellions and Beastmasters are open to reprisal and whilst both of those units are pretty damn decent in combat, the combination of I6, force weapons and Cleansing Flame can do a number on them. However, Dark Eldar now have units in the Grey Knight's battleline which they have to deal with. The Reavers are still there to support both of these units and bring S6 melta to bear on those Dreadnoughts who can also be tied up by continuously hitting and running Hellions and there are still six mobile vehicles for the Grey Knights to deal with which aren't all within easy reach of the unengaged Purifiers. This is the 'transition' phase against an army which cannot always reach you as you try to minimise their firepower but maximise your offensive capabilities.

Grey Knights Turn 2


The Grey Knight counter-attack has to play a bit defensively to sweep their battline clear and ensure their units aren't exposed. If they push their remaining Purifiers against the backfield of the Dark Eldar they may do more damage but expose the Purifiers (and there are still enough squads out there which can damage them) and leave their backline free to be molested by the Hellions and Beastmasters. By playing defensively they can still utilise their Psybacks for firepower, use Purifiers to clear their backline and protect any Purifiers sent forward to shoot. This again means they aren't maximising their firepower so the defensive and then partially aggressive play of the Dark Eldar is still working in their favor - they aren't being hit by everything.

Unfortunately for Dark Eldar, the Grey Knight shooting is particularly effective this turn and drops three tanks whilst the charging Purifiers reap a heavy toll on the Beastmaster squad. Things are still in the balance as the Reavers and Hellions are still in play and there's enough ranged Darklight firepower (Blaster Warriors, Lanceborn) to crack open those remaining Psybacks.

And with that we shall finish this pictorial exercise - it's purpose was to show how to open a game defensively with a Dark Eldar army. I will post the end results of the game though in another post for all those who are curious (which I was one of!) so never fear, you'll know the answer of to who wins yet...

Analysis & Conclusion -

This is a match-up the Internet likes to think heavily favors the Grey Knights (but they also think this list is the most broken thing ever - go figure). If the Dark Eldar army plays into the hands of the Grey Knight army - then yes, Grey Knights should indeed walk all over this list. What does this mean? Don't play aggressively early. A lot of Grey Knight firepower comes in at 24" - mainly psycannons and stormbolters. The threat range of these weapons is generally 30" (24" + 6" movement) though the Psycannons are doubly threatening when the don't have to move. When they are in a transport though this jacks up to 38.9" thanks to a 12" move and 2.9" disembark. This means hiding from them is hard but if your opponent does this, their units are exposed and they aren't getting the firepower of both the Psyback AND the Psycannons.

By playing defensively early on, you can avoid being hit by every weapon the Grey Knight army has to offer at once. Our goal here in our first turn/deployment is to therefore force the Grey Knight player to either move 12", jump out and shoot or move 6", stay inside and just shoot with the Psybacks. We're always going to be in range of the Psyfledreads and it's very unlikely we'll ever outrange all of the Psybacks but you do not want to be in that 30-33" zone where the Psybacks can move 6" and disembark the Psycannons into range. That's a sure way to lose. By staying out of this zone you can therefore bring your firepower to bear to damage your opponent's army and again reduce the incoming firepower your way.

Dark Eldar are fragile so you need to minimise the firepower that comes in. As we discussed in the previous article there are two ways to do this - stay out of range or smash the opponent. The problem is, neither option is always the right answer and always sticking to that strategy rather than adopting can see you lose games which you could have won. In this example we saw a defensive strategy used with aggressive elements as the Grey Knight player moved into the threat range of aggressive units. Hopefully this furthers your understanding in this regard and next post on this topic will look at it from the other angle (aggressive to defensive).

Comments (21)

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No offense, but who deployed that GK army?
8 replies · active 699 weeks ago
Let's hear what you think is wrong with it before I reveal the culprit ;) .
Killswitch's avatar

Killswitch · 699 weeks ago

Theres a building to the left, I assume its blocking LOS, his army should be behind that, or at least the psyfleman should be to prevent the obvious flank attack. Its hard to tell due to vassals shitty TLOS, but i agree, not only is that GK list shoddy, but the deployment is aswell.
There isn't even close to enough room for the whole army, or even a significant fraction of it, to deploy behind that building. You could stick the Psyflemen back there, sure, but that gets them... cover there instead of behind the transports? You're not really stopping anything doing that, since the DE player is happy to have you tied up in assault with Reavers for the rest of the game (or at least the first 1-3 turns.)
It's a clusterfuck resulting in limited lines of fire from the GK player itself and which makes it easy for the Dark Eldar player to control lines of fire which he gets back. It's simply a horrible deployement, if you can't see why then... Well...

How I would do it without even thinking about it? Psyflemen should be near the back in the corners in cover behind the buildings. (I would put 2 behind the ruin on the right and 1 on the left) Psyflemen are 48", Lances are 36". If Lances want to hit the Psyflemen, they come within range of the Psybacks/Psycannons who should deploy in the center and as forward as possible (3 psybacks sidesways pointed, other 3 psybacks behind these)

This is just a very simple deployement and maybe not even the best thing to do either, but surely its much better than that deployement. I'm not surprised though, 90% of the players in this game can't even deploy decently...

So yeah, because of the badly played (and bad list) GK army the article loses a lot of it's value, which is a shame as it's a nice effort and there is some good stuff in it :)
DE kinda love it when you deploy units distant from the rest of their army on their own. Placing units forward would put them in Heat Lance range earlier. I'm not sure the GK player can afford to play aggressively here, as the DE army can easily put a couple threats (like Beastmasters) into him and force him to disembark and eat casualties from Venoms.

I'm not saying his deployment was perfect, but there are going to be issues you'll have to face with any deployment. The GK player can't afford to spread out because then one side of his line will get pounced, but he also can't afford to cluster up for the reasons you mentioned.
You don't spread out. You merely put your long-range support units (which outrange every unit DE have by 12") in way better positions. Not only that, but you'll force the DE player to put his units in range of the psycannons + psybacks if he wants to hurt the Psyflemen (as the psyflemen are futher away than the psybacks/gk;s) The psybacks + GK's don't have to be played agressively, you merely put them far forward during deployement so you'll be in range first turn :)

Heat lances still wont be in melta range first turn: 12 + 9 = 21, which is less than 24". You should be glad if the De player decides that 2x S6 shots against 1 psyback is worth a try, next turn they'll be dead in that case. So basicly the DE player will still turboboost his Reavers and he'll be in range of something 2nd turn then anyhow, no matter how the GK player deploys.
If the dreads are in the corners (such as behind the buildings like you said) - the DE list can swing to one side and force one corner not to shoot. By deploying them in the middle you cannot hide from them with their 6" movement (not enough space behind the centre terrain piece) and 48" hits the corners from the centre 12" deployment line. The DE player is always going to need to get in range of the Psybacks - it's about minimising the impact of the Psycannons in the first couple of turns.

By castling in the centre the GK player is going to get to the Dark Eldar army no matter what around T2-3 with the Psycannon + Psyback combo - during those early turns thought it's about ensuring all the Psybacks and Dreads can cause maximum damage - they do this from the centre.

How is it limiting firelanes as well btw? There's no disadvantage to castling here as Dark Eldar don't have any large ordnance blasts/things which hit multiple tanks, etc. and Razorbacks + Dreads see over each other very well (obviously not around the turret of the RBacks). Certainly the Dark Eldar are more capable of using the centre piece of terrain to hide behind but there isn't a lot of room there regardless.

The deployment isn't 100% perfect but then neither is the Dark Eldar's since I used the same deployment in both scenarios but it's not terrible.
You seem to completely not understand what I mean, no idea what causes this. And I simply disagree with your theoratic explaination you make here. I can't be bothered to make pictures to show what I mean though, so I'll let it go.
Melkor2002's avatar

Melkor2002 · 699 weeks ago

Any tactic suggestions, for DE on a similarly setup board/objectives with the following army compositions?

DE
Lady Malys
2x 3x Trueborns w/3x Blasters
9x Wyches w/hexatrix, agoniser, wc, and haywire grenades
4x 5x Warriors w/ Blaster
Raider for wyches w/ flickerfield, aethersails
6x Venoms for warriors/trueborns w/ 2nd splinter cannon and NS
2x 5x Scourges w/ 2x Heatlance
Beast w/ 3x Beastmaster, 7x khymera, 2x razorwing flock
3x Ravager w/ flickerfield and NS

GK
Inquisitor w/ flamer
6x 5x Strike w/ psy cannon
6x Psyback
6x Psyfileman

Don't know if I am waisting points on the NS in a hopeful all comers list with DE. In this match up I have difficulty with knocking out enough of the GK armor to kill the units inside with six psyfilemen pouring fire down table. I try shielding the venoms with the ravagers to give them a 4+ cover and they can still shoot around the ravager which may lose a lance shot depending on LoS to angle of the target and ravager. While moving to limit the amount of shots from the psyback and psycannons either through range or BLoS.
2 replies · active 699 weeks ago
Your beastmaster squad needs more Razorwings. I'd suggest turning 2-3 of those Khymeras into Flocks. If you're screening the Ravagers a lot, FFs might not be necessary. The Wyches' Raider NEEDS a shockprow, no exceptions. Scourges w/ HLs seems a bit meh, but I guess it's decent alpha strike (they'll die horribly, but will do damage). Might consider removing the scourges for something else (reavers, more beastmasters, more wyches, more trueborn w/ 4x blasters for consistency).

Edit: Your opponent's basically trying for as much mech as possible, while abusing Psydreads, so strategy is a part of this, but not a huge part. Concentrate on getting the Strikes out of their bawkses while dealing with the easier Psydreads first (getting more Wyches w/ Haywires will basically rip this list apart).
Your list is more aggressive so doing a defensive stance isn't going to net you much. 5 less Dark lances may not seem like much but it can mean a whole lot here. In that regard though and against a Non-purifier list - just push aggressively. Your Wychs + Beasts will do well in combat (though as Sage suggested, more Razorwings would be good) and Night Shields can really annoy Psycannons.

The major issue for Dark Eldar against Grey Knights is always Psyflemen. There are two concepts you can take here - ignore them and suffer highly reliable damage to three tanks a turn or try and kill them ASAP. I generally use my Reavers for this but Wyches are a great tarpit (especially if you can multi-assault them) with Grenades or you can try and use your Ravagers on them early (though they are less likely to do damage).
Sorrowshard's avatar

Sorrowshard · 699 weeks ago

psyflemen pretty much auto delete a DE vehicle every single turn regardless of cover or range , you dont' have much time to hang back to be honest, those dreads need to go, due to the range on Dl's a canny GK can just force you onto his psycannon spam, even reavers are likely to get one shot before they are erased.

Im not sure if there is a reliable way to silence the dreads early, its a conundrum for sure.

I still think psy spam is a horrible match up, one game I played my opponent ripped through over half my vehicles in one turn, they all had saves of some kind, if I could reliably suppress them I think it might be ok.
2 replies · active 699 weeks ago
Psyfles are a PITA for Dark Eldar there's no doubt and this list is probably one of the hardest balanced match-ups for Dark Eldar simply because Purifiers can match the Dark Eldar combat units pretty well. It gets smacked around by a lot of other lists though so late in tournaments you shouldn't really see a lot of them...hopefully.

But to Psyfles - as I said above you can either ignore them or try and snap them up ASAP. Wyches with Haywires are a great tarpit which can damage them or you can gamble and throw your Ravagers + Dark Lances at them early. Unlikely to work with AV12 + Fortitude and weapon destroyed + immob results are far less useful on them unlike the Psybacks. I generally ignore them early on - suffer their damage (which is generally the Ravagers :( ) and trust to Reavers later on - which of course isn't a guarantee and count on my better melee prowess (since I run hellions and beasts) in midfield + mass poison against the majority of the GK line (though again, in this case the Purifiers have an annoying habit of handling the Hellions + beasts).
Sorrowshard's avatar

Sorrowshard · 699 weeks ago

Purifiers with halberds pwn DE combat units, if he's feeling evil he can try to get multiple cleanisng flames on one of your units and just burn you down before you ever get to strike, fnp is the bread and butter of my wyches, thats what keeps them up long enough to finally wear something down, without it your in some trouble. Even harlequins have to take a round of wounds before they get to go. Ultimately any time your cc units can buy you where they are not pouring psycannon fire into your face is prob worth the sacrifice, and hell if you win it’s a bonus

Really I would argue that they are far far too dangerous to simply ignore, going second creates whole new worlds of headaches for De's in this match up, if they are in fortitude cover unless you are gifted with freak luck your lances may as well not exist (goes for reavers too), this leaves wyches and they have no real way of getting there, especially if you go second, It really is rock and the hard place time, Currently I feel your only option is to gamble, its such a woeful match up you'll be relying on good luck to survive anyway, why drag it out ?

I'm at work atm, just looking at the map above looks like his turns are far more effective than yours really, as soon as gk realize they can just come straight at us , blow up all our tanks then shrug off whatever comes back/destroy what cc we send in, there is no balance on the psycannon , it does a number on high value high armoured targets (better than las) completely mutilates DE paper planes and can turn it's hand to obliterating hordes too. It’s a simple issue of us not being able to hit them remotely as hard as they hit us, to put it into context for you we would have to have 4/8 shot str8 ap one weapons firing back just to be close to equal to normal psycannons, in the case of psyflemen it’s 4 tl str 10 ap 1 shots (on rhinos) to hurt psyflemen with the efficiency they hurt us would require a weapon with a stat line that ‘cannot exist), yeh I would love a 4 shot TL str 11 ap 1 gun too …..

There is no way for DE to reliably cope with that cr4p, we just have to suck it up and play as best we can and pray for good dice.

having said that you have to accept there are some armies and builds that have similar problems with DE ,admittedly they are for the most part older books and/or xenos
Melkor2002's avatar

Melkor2002 · 699 weeks ago

Thanks for the suggestions, I wish I could get the wyches into mutli-assault with the dreads but as they hide behind a shield wall of boxes, its difficult to get to them. Plus the psyfielmens are almost always getting a cover, and as kirby said shooting at them is pretty much a lost cause. Though I am going to work around with the points to get some more flocks into the pack.
Smurfykins's avatar

Smurfykins · 699 weeks ago

Melkor, def consider more rams/raiders, even on your warrior units. I have a list similiar to yours and by getting Shock Raiders you get the needed dual lance shots while keeping the capability for a str 10 move block/rammer. Even just 2 of these help a balanced defensive/aggressive style quite well and I'll keep Kirby updated because his list is close to mine, though like you I use Scourges > Jetbikes due to having more firepower over their 18" range (better than the Reavers pitiful 12" (Yes its taht much of a difference) lol
Nice post Kirbs, very helpful.

I'm sure people would like to see more articles like this, but focusing on deployments other than pitched battle, or when DE are not going first. Reserve strategy for DE would also be very welcome.
Clever Handle's avatar

Clever Handle · 699 weeks ago

Reserve strategy is difficult to write because it can completely change based on what comes in when.

How differently would you play this list if you got 3 ravagers and two venoms turn two compared to getting your hellions, beasts & reavers?
Does anyone else look at that deployment and think "Manticore, definitely Manticore"?
Well, I presume reserve strategy would countain actual advice on conditions for reserving, when it would be tatically preferable and what units should be in reserve, rather than turn-by-turn tactics explanation.

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