"Well Kirby, I'm working on my CSM army, I also like blood angels and vanilla marines, but there's nothing quite like the traitor legions. There is no emperor !!!!
Anyways, i'm halfway through painting a box of csm and plague marines, and have come up with this list, See, I want to play chaos space marines and not chaos daemon princes...
so without further ado (@1500p)
HQ
Chaos Lord-daemon weapon
Troops
8 Khorn Berzerkers-powerfist, rhino
5 Plague marines-2x melta-rhino
5 Plague marines-2x melta-rhino
5 Plague marines-melta, flamer-rhino
Heavy Support
3 Obliterators
3 Obliterators
5 havocs, rhino-4 plasma guns
Good fire support, and then a rhino rush with PMs to open any enemy transports....and 15 FnP marines with T5 is hard to
deal with in anyones book...and we have the zerkers as a counter punch, and the havocs will plasma any nasty super unit or MC to death....
And a cheap HQ. but can kill off a fair few men before dying...
A daemon prince at 130p can't kill as many models...though it still is harder to kill.
What do ya think?"
One of the advantages Chaos has over regular Space Marines is guns on their Rhinos - make sure you always use this option where possible. The base of the army (Plagues + Oblits) is fine but I'd not bother with the Havocs/Zerkers/Lord and rather run three squads of two Oblits for more damage potential, 1-2 Chaos Sorcerers with Lash for some manipulation of your opponent and then Chaos Marines in Rhinos.
This keeps you with some ranged firepower from the Oblits, adds some ability to annoy the hell out of your opponent with Lash without building your list around it and supports the Plagues with CSM. You don't have a real combat threat like the Zerkers but mass CSM can clear out crappy units - the issue with Zerkers is they do the same and still struggle against really hard targets unless they hit them at full force. You also gain some more special weapons + Rhinos through the CSM and saturation is always good.
Logging you in...
Enlargingcloud · 699 weeks ago
I'd grab something like this:
(130) Spartan Prince, wings
(170) 5 Plague Marines, 2 meltaguns, rhino
(261) 7 Plague Marines, 2 meltaguns, champ/w/fist, rhino
(165) 5 Plague Marines, 1 meltagun, 1 flamer, rhino
(170) 5 Plague Marines, 1 plasma gun, flamer, rhino
(225) 3 Oblits
(225) 3 Oblits
(155) 5 Havocs, 4 missile launchers
(1496)
here is what you have:
-hq:
spartan princes are great because they are cheap, can kill things, and can give rhinos cover. Use him to give rhinos cover for one turn before using smoke launchers in the next turn. If you have 2 front rhinos, you pop smoke with one, and shield the other with the prince. Then next turn you pop smoke on the other rhino and move the prince to give the smokeless rhino cover. It really improves survivability.
-troops:
3 units with meltaguns, 1 that can hold its own in assault, one that can flame small enemy units
1 unit with a plasma gun to play midfield flamer/anti-MC/light transport, and they can also start on foot on an objective in Dawn of War (you use their rhino to get havocs into play during dawn of war.
-heavy:
6 oblits, with good positioning and use, can really annihilate lots of enemy units with extreme prejudice. they will either get shot, or live to make your enemy regret not killing them
5 havocs: small unit, I prefer 7, but here they are annoying to take out from range since long-ranged anti-infantry fire isn't that common at 1500pts; units like these sometimes draw missile launchers, which can help the rhinos stay alive. Another mean tactic is to bunch them up for templates. It makes your opponent see them as a better target than your rhinos, causing them to fire frag grenades. This tactic works really well with plague marines in cover (moreso than havocs) but it also works with havocs as a psychological move.
Good luck and if you use my list I would be delighted. The list I made for you is somewhat similar to my most recent 1850pts list.
GWvsJohn 44p · 699 weeks ago
DP - the OP said he didn't want princes. Otherwise a naked wing prince is fine
2 mg PM squad - no weapon on the rhino? Otherwise good
fist PM squad - why? The fist adds nothing. Anything you could beat before you still beat. Anything that beat you before still beats your. The only thing it would help against would be, maybe, tactical squads who also have a fist? And frankly, I'm ok with my cheap PM squad occupying that squad in CC all game long
melta/flamer PM squad - again, why? Mixing special weapon types is almost always a bad option unless a) you have 4 in a squad or b) you have more in a squad than your transport has fire points. This squad doesn't threaten tanks and it needs to.
plasma/flamer PM squad - yet again, why? The only reason to bring the plasma gun is to try and turn your PM into a ranged objective holder. I don't like that strategy at all, but if you're going to try it, at least try it correctly and bring 2 plasma guns. The flamer adds nothing to this squad
GWvsJohn 44p · 699 weeks ago
Oblits - fine, obviously
Havocs - why would you bring missile launchers over autocannons? Please don't say for frag missiles. The only benefit a missile launcher has over an autocannon is the ability to pen av13 (and an almost insignificant 1/6 chance to glance av 14). You have lascannons and melta for preds. The only reason to bring havocs is for the autocannons.
khurdur · 699 weeks ago
How do chaos lords work out ? Are they at all playable? They are Ok, I think, but DPs are just better. Chaos just suuers from not having a force multiplier HQ. Only DPs, cause they get shot and save the rest of your force, so that kinda counts doesn't it!
What about the current state pf the CSM codex? Some things just suck, but others, like plague marines and oblits, and maybe berzerkers are still good (not much else)
Scuzgob 96p · 699 weeks ago
GWvsJohn 44p · 699 weeks ago
giantkillertrl 37p · 699 weeks ago
As for your havocs, I think you'll like them a lot better kitted out for long-range transport popping, since that's going to be your real issue with any CSM force. 5 havocs with 4 autocannons and an Icon of Chaos Glory (to help keep them from running off the board after a casualty or two) will do that job.
GWvsJohn's suggestion about combi-weapons on the rhinos is also a good one. And don't split special weapons on the PM squads.
Hope this helps!
-GK
Enlargingcloud · 699 weeks ago
2 units of 5 plague marines, 2 plasma guns, rhinos
-I also had 6 obliterators and 4 terminators (combi-plasma). I decided to drop one plasma gun to a flamer for 2 personal icons. This let me have much more deep strike coverage, and in a slight majority of my games I have found it quite worthwhile, despite sometimes missing the extra plasma gun.
Enlargingcloud · 699 weeks ago
I think your post was rather rude.
I think you should see this game as something more than a linear equation. It ten times more complex than that, so respect peoples' approaches to solving problems like a mature adult.
Anyways your points were:
-you want weapons on the rhinos (what? they are overcosted, and rhinos already have combi-bolters)
-you are against having cheap flamers when points do not permit more of other guns. I have played games and seen that flamers are quite useful against infantry squads (even marines). Flamers frequently make their points back. The plasma gun is for versatility/range if need be.
I simply gave the OP a reason that princes can help the list. Sorry I forgot the 1st point of not having them, you can just make the prince a lord and put him with the fist PM's
Also the 7+pfist marines are to actually hurt enemies in close combat. I'm not sure if you've played 40k, or with CSM's ever, but powerfists, if taken sparingly, are very useful. I think that your comment refuting the use of power fists sound moronic. You can't win games by tar pitting opponents. You need to kill enemies.
Also, sometimes good players use vindicators to shield rhinos. I immobilized a vindicator the last time I faced on using my havocs' missile launchers. Simply put, autocannons aren't the be-all win-all. That extra punch means something in games. You should experiment a bit. This game isn't a linear equation my friend.
New list:
(130) Chaos Lord, Daemon Weapon -goes with the pfist plague marines to give them high initiative attacks.
(170) 5 Plague Marines, 2 meltaguns, rhino
(261) 7 Plague Marines, 2 meltaguns, champ/w/fist, rhino
(165) 5 Plague Marines, 1 meltagun, 1 flamer, rhino -plague marines are nice places for point-filler-flamers
(170) 5 Plague Marines, 1 plasma gun, flamer, rhino
(225) 3 Oblits
(225) 3 Oblits
(155) 5 Havocs, 4 missile launchers (or autocannons, I use 2 of each to help kill rhinos, but I think in general missiles are most verstile)
(1496)
Lastly, note that small PM squads are unable to tarpit any unit that has a powerfist. It simply doesn't work.
Overall I think that many people need to play more games with CSM, and stop doing lots of theoretical stuff. Especially on forums.
@khurdur: Chaos Lords aren't bad. Personally I only ever use 1 HQ choice, and I used to use lords when I used a land raider a lot, but currently I use my DP as he is big, cool looking, and generally effective. Chaos Lords can definitely help chaos units be very effective, and as you've noticed, chaos has great versatility in their troops (bolters+special weapons+close combat goes further than many think on the internet). The only simple problem is that chaos lords don't confuse/scare enemies as much as DP's do, a simple reality.
The current state of the CSM codex is that it has many tactical options at its disposal, especially in terms of deep strike, yet paying premiums for quite a few units makes most economical list makers shy away from a lot of units. It takes bravery to try out a lot of units, and I've noticed that many things (even bikers) can create wonderful synergies with chaos units.
IMO obliterators are our force multipliers, as they can provide long-ranged firepower, Land Raider threatening stopping power, and deep strike support to home in on icons in our troops choice (this is very useful when taking enemy objectives.) We also have lesser daemons that, while being a strange investment, can be game changers when they lend help to an assault on an enemy objective.
By thinking outside the box, many units can become powerful. I think most CSM players get demoralized because they rush in with too many "don't automatically purchase" units, or they grab the "interwebz says I'm wonderful" units and feel unoriginal and lame. Any good list maker who experienced the 4th edition climate saw how both finesse units and secure units worked in tandem to create unpredictable and effective armies.
Craft your own mix of units with the codex, and if you have a sound reason for certain upgrades, use them.
Try out synergies, and remember that you might actually need to reuse units constantly, but so many other lists do to (Blood Angels librarians, dreadnoughts with psybolts+autocannons, Long Fangs with missile launchers). You aren't less original that the other guy, you just have less clearly studied tools.
Overall army composition is something that online list makers hate analyzing. You yourself should put in the time and effort to take bits of what you read online and mix it with your personal play style to create lists that are unpredictable and powerful. Consider this, I learned how to tarpit+bait enemy deathstars (thunderwolf lords) online. In a tournament then, I successful baited 3 250+pt thunderwolf lords (with fenrisian retinues) into places for my other units to shoot down. Flamers help kill fenrisian wolves. But few use them. I was quite lucky for having them.
DimmyK · 699 weeks ago
GWvsJohn 44p · 699 weeks ago
How can you say combis on rhinos are overcosted? 10 points turns your transport into a threat. Now it draws fire away from preds, oblits, termies. Now it threatens tanks. It also doesn't lose the combi-bolter. Combi-melta on a chaos rhino is an amazing choice. Havocs are awesome too, add range that is sorely lacking.
I'm also not against flamers in a broad sense. I am against flamers in a plague marine squad because CSM lists are starved for anti-tank and meltas are almost always a better buy. I'm also against them paired with a plasma gun because you cant use both to maximum effectiveness. You need a task for your squads and kit them out to do that task. Trying to do a bit of everything doesn't work. (exception is the multi-melta/flamer/rhino bare bones tactical squad in a min troop vanilla list which is, if you think about it, kitted out to hold objectives).
CC is weak in 5th for a variety of reasons and bringing squads that are simply above average at it is mostly a waste. Maybe I (or one of the other authors) will write a post explaining the problem with CC in 5th. Regardless, you didnt address my point. The fist doesnt make them good at CC. They beat tacticals with or without the fist and they lose to terminators with or without the fist. It just adds points.
I don't think autocannons are the best thing ever, but theyre are simply better than missile launchers for anti-tank. If you're shooting missile launchers at a vindicator, then something has gone wrong. It's more just in case thinking which is not the way to build a list.
Regarding your new list. Why doesn't the chaos lord have wings?
Regarding PM tarpits. A fist kils 1 model a turn. That means 2.5 turns of tarpitting to kill a 5 man PM squad. Holding a squad up for half the game is a pretty effective tarpit. Having a fist of your own changes nothing. So now instead of you taking a passing 1 fearless ave each combat round, you draw? Doesn't change anything.
I hate, hate, hate this implied scorn at people who run lists with good units. There is nothing wrong or lazy or uncreative with running the good units from your codex.
Finally, just a general comment. You can't prove things by example or anecdote. Your experience where someone misplayed their wolf lords and you pwned them with flamers only proves that a) your opponent doesn't know how to run units and b) you know how to pounce on mistakes. The second part of that is certainly important, but i wouldn't allow it to guide me into bringing just in case units.
zhandao 26p · 699 weeks ago
Enlargingcloud · 699 weeks ago
Yet I think that it is good to take into consideration certain, random viewpoints that have actual experience behind them. GWvsJohn likely is experienced, and so am I (possibly to a greater or lesser degree). Therefore I think that personal anecdotes from either of us should be respected. If we both explain our decisions, it will result in the OP having somewhat of a greater understanding of the game, as he will have understood how people view 40k. Even if one is incredibly more useful than the other, that alternative experience is still helpful to give him perspective.
Also note that I wasn't saying that my list was the "BEST POSSIBLE SOLUTION". I don't do that, only posters can try and argue that.
I prefer to give suggestions from my experience to help others, without trying to act like I have Empirical Reasoning to help me make decisions revolving around a game with many, many variables.
zhandao 26p · 699 weeks ago
Using personal anecdotes to try to OBJECTIVELY make general, blanketing statements is another.
Enlargingcloud · 699 weeks ago
Regarding your comment on a situational success of mine, ot all successes achieved by people who disagree with you are achieved because an opponent misplayed. You have no way to prove that he misplayed his thunderwolves, seriously. It definitely could have been because of a "mistake" by him, but its not as simple as you are making it.
-Also on your first paragraph, redundancy isn't always good, as it can allow certain opponents to have an easier time with target priority. And no, not all "good" players can easily assess what targets to shoot at.
-Also, yes, transports that bring threat are good. And here you have to pay points to give them a threat. Is it a no-brainer to give chaos rhinos guns? I don't think so, but you might. Please elaborate.
Also about tarpitting marines, enemies can roll better than average and kill 2 plague marines in a turn. Simply put, the investment can be worthwhile when you face tyranid warriors, or an enemy unit that doesn't have a powerfist that you wouldn't kill. Sometimes its useful to get into close combat to avoid shooting (from plasma, or other things) and so, being able to win close combat is nice as you can try and shoot whatever threatened your unit (vindicator, for example) while you are safe in close combat. Of course, having the fist could make you win to early and get blown to bits, but the randomness makes thinking about this not too useful.
Also, I don't have any scorn at people who run good lists with good units. I don't even care that a lot of lists are taken off the internet. Yet it can be uncreative, and so many people try and break the mold. And this can be effective when a. enemies don't have experience vs. certain units and b. when they present multiple possible strategies or mediums for attacking the enemy.
Enlargingcloud · 699 weeks ago
GWvsJohn 44p · 699 weeks ago
The reason I assumed your opponent misplayed his wolves is because you used the word "baited" which implies deception. Falling for a trap, no matter how clever, is misplaying your army.
GWvsJohn 44p · 699 weeks ago
Yes, it is a no-brainer to give Chaos Rhinos a combi-melta or havoc launcher. I wrote an entire post on it. 1+1 is one of the building blocks of a good list (no, not all lists need 1+1 but ones that can, should)
GWvsJohn 44p · 699 weeks ago
blacksly · 699 weeks ago
GWvsJohn 44p · 699 weeks ago
blacksly · 699 weeks ago
Lord Lizard · 699 weeks ago
Enlargingcloud · 699 weeks ago
GWvsJohn 44p · 699 weeks ago
Second, if I know how to maneuver and position my army (and I do) I can usually dictate who your CC unit gets to fight. If I keep feeding your berserkers 35 point rhinos and 50 point attack bikes every turn, that's all they get to kill. The only CC armies that can really dictate where they fight are BA who don't hit THAT hard outside of sang guard and DE who rely on open topped av10 transports to get around.
blacksly · 699 weeks ago
Also, some good CC armies will use smaller MSU CC units (say, 3 squads of 100-pt or so Beastmaster squads), to get around your "I will sacrifice stuff to you that's 1/3 your cost, then shoot" tactic. With multiple CC squads that are cheap, each has to be blocked separately and thus you have to sacrifice more, each is more likely to take 2 assault phases to win, giving it a better chance to remain "hidden", and it's easier to split and hit multiple good targets rather than trying for multiple assaults that a good opponent will try to avoid.
In short, big-CC squad rock armies are vulnerable to some tactics, that are less applicable when you bring a "wolfpack CC" army. If the wolfpack army also has sufficient fire support, which is often easier as generally you're not spending as many points into pure CC units, it's a lot harder to say "I have a good general tactic that will in most cases put your army design into a solid disadvantage". And it still has a solid ability to finish the deal in CC vs armies that don't try to do anything in CC, as for those armies bringing true rocks is just overkill, and multiple smaller wolf units can still pounce on and defeat anything that ends up or starts outside a transport. I just see too many CC lists building a bigger and better rock rather than on giving up on the entire rock concept while still trying to maintain solid dispersed CC ability if you can get it at a good price.
blacksly · 699 weeks ago
CC oriented lists are often rock armies, whether 1 or 2 or 3 rocks. They have squads that are expensive and powerful, and designed to beat face in combat, and you cannot afford to have these units actually LOSE in combat. So most lists make sure they don't lose in combat, by beefing up the units to where only other dedicated rocks can handle them.
The weakness of these armies is that the bigger the unit, the more effective it HAS to be each turn, in order to be worth the price you pay for it, both in points and in forcing your tactics (basically, point rock at enemy, hurl rock at enemy). When the enemy limits the rock's effectiveness by putting only something cheap and relatively ineffective in front of it, but by doing so he blocks the rock's forward movement, then the rock has to spend a turn advancing 1" plus a consolidation move, to remove the obstacle. Then, the opponent does it again. How many times can the opponent do it? A MSU army can throw away quite a lot of units, especially if you spent a lot on rocks, as they aren't losing much to the rest of your rock's support. And even if after 2-3 turns your rock finally breaks through the cheap guerrilla sacrifices and sees juicy meaty prey ahead... perhaps the game ends. It took it some turns to do that, it had to move forward to get into threat range anyhow, maybe it doesn't get to kill anything worthwhile before the game ends.
And the problem is that the opponent tactic is not even predicated on statistics. His units can be totally crappy, in fact, if that makes them cheap, so much the better. All he needs to do is to use basic game rules:
1) a unit cannot move through an enemy, and cannot destroy an enemy unit until AFTER the movement phase. Thus unless you can fly/jump, you often cannot avoid having your movement limited for 1 turn by 1 enemy unit regardless of how much weaker it is.
2) if the opponent puts a sacrifice in front of you that's too far away from his other units to multi-charge, you can only kill that 1 unit with your unit, no matter what the strength difference is.
These rules are pretty invariant, and they form the basis of the anti-rock tactic: unavoidable delay, and unavoidable limitation on how much the rock can "eat" in one turn. Meanwhile, the rest of his (shooty) army has no such limitation since he's not trying to do his damage in CC, and shooting is not so limited.
There are other points such as winning CC then getting shot up at short range, counter-charged, etc, that are often good arguments against depending on CC. But those can be argued against, depending on your unit: a Hammernator unit with FNP doesn't really worry that much about being shot up after winning CC. But the basic "limited move plus limited target to kill" rules really can't be avoided for many units.
That's why I generally design CC armies around multiple weaker CC threats. I depend on shooting opponent rocks a bit so that hitting them with multiple "stone" units will then net me a win in CC, but meanwhile, it's harder to block 3 stones than 1 rock.
zhandao 26p · 699 weeks ago
blacksly · 698 weeks ago
CSM army with 2 naked DPs, 2 Dreads, 2-4 squads of advance PMs (again, they'll beat normal troops, while the DPs/Dreads fight the real CC threats). The CSM army doesn't have anything too good on paper, but the ability to pick 3 different types of units that can each hold up defensively against different types of attacks gives it the opportunity to match up and tie up CC units while having 6+ units that can all beat non-CC units. And all can break vehicles, especially finish off Immobile or Stunned ones, so they're dual threats.
Space Wolf army with 3 2-man squads (or 3-man squads in larger games) of Thunderwolves. While these aren't beater units, they are perfect examples of stone units.... fast, so they can threaten multiple soft units a turn. Their speed again allows them to gangbang rock units... a TH/SS squad will smash a single Thunderwolf squad, but with their large charge range, you may be able to toss in all 3 into one fight and crush the Hammernators.
I like BA armies with 3 squads of Heavy Bolter Attack Bikes. The rest of the BA army generally has enough melta to finish tanks, Devs for long range fire support, and the Attack Bikes can beat up on non-CC infantry, provide a lot of fire support, and gangbang a CC squad by firing into it (15 shots per unit) and charging it with all of the Bikes.
Nids have the CC ability, but often lack the mobility to run these armies. Stone units with 12" threat range don't achieve the purpose of "threaten multiple areas while able to re-focus and overwhelm a single tough CC threat".
Chaos Daemons with 3 Fiend squads, especially if they also have Soulgrinders, or Winged DPs, or Hounds of Khorne, to add more units with a long assault range and that can beat soft units in CC. It's hard to use effectively, though, since Daemons can't expect to have their stones approach the enemy lines with multiple vulnerable targets, since they won't have enough vehicles Stunned/Immobilized, and enough infantry knocked out of their transports. Basically, they have the stone units but not the fire support to set them up for practical use.