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Wednesday, September 5, 2012

Discussion: Army Constructs for 6th

Posted by Unknown
So with NOVA out of the way I want to see what are the major thoughts on army constructs. For example, last edition was primarily MSU mech with the 1+1 (unit and fighting transport) taking precedence over most other lists. There were other strong lists often involving Hybrid elements, some foot armies (Loganwing), etc. but the primary aspect was generally MSU.

Has this changed? I have a few thoughts on this which I've been going through with my posts and seeing more and more in playtesting but would like to see other opinions and what people have found before I do a few exploratory articles. We're still not likely to nail down the exact construct for a while as things continually evolve and new books are released - MSU mech didn't take off right away for 5th remember, but this discussion and following articles should lead us somewhere closer.

So, begin! And remember to be nice to people with contrary opinions to yours.
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Prometheus 101p · 655 weeks ago

I was shocked, I mean shocked at the relative lack of Flyers, particularly in the invitational. Top table end round there were no flyers at all! (I was also very surprised Alex brought GK allies.....I've played him 4 or 5 times,,,never thought he had the inclination.) Of the top 16 the only real "flyer spam" list was Neil Gilstrap.

I was also interested to see quite a few Dreadkngihts kicking around....I love moine, personally, but had discounted it as uncompetitive. Obviously 6th helped it out in several ways, but I hadn't thought it was enough.

Really, I was wrong in my assumptions in several things.

I was planning a post about it on my own blog tomorrow morning.
7 replies · active 655 weeks ago
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DarkLink · 655 weeks ago

I wouldn't quite say Dreadknights were uncompetitive, just difficult to use and certainly not a top tier unit.

They've gotten enough buffs now that they function quite well against most armies. The one thing you have to do is keep them alive until it's time to strike. Keep them away from units with lots of plasmaguns, give enemy lascannons more important targets, etc, and then pounce at the opportune moment. Used well, you can wreak havoc on units like Long Fangs or Eldar Rangers, and tear apart Land Raiders. A good player can make good use of a Dreadknight, and they're a lot of fun.

That said, against most opponents a squad of Interceptors will do better. They're just more points efficient in general.
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abusepuppy 121p · 655 weeks ago

I think the fact that only non-vehicle units counted for table quarters was a huge influence- it really skews the kind of list you want to bring. You only need one scoring unit to hold an objective, but every single unit matters when claiming quarters.
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MVB · 655 weeks ago

It's important to note that vehicle-heavy armies did well in every single bracket at NOVA. Assessing everything off the list of the winner is a little bit unwise. The top 16 had only 2 lists without vehicles. The other 14 all had substantial points invested in vehicles and flyers, and all did quite well for themselves.

There's definitely a balance to be found, but the new edition royally screws over MSU troops to begin with. What's been clear even in book missions is that your vehicle expenditures better be able to shoot, and be cost efficient, and your troops better be more than 5-man MSU squads.
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Prometheus 101p · 655 weeks ago

Hrmmm....there's a lot of things coming and going for MSUs. For instance, the best way to void overwatch is to launch something small and disposable first.
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chumbalaya 79p · 655 weeks ago

I think that just reinforces the idea that balance is key. Full on MSU will be punished like a handful of big units, or any lopsided build.
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Shadar_Logoth 92p · 655 weeks ago

Agree with Chumby completely here. Balance, balance, balance.
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Algesan · 655 weeks ago

Yep, it was fun to have someone go: "Well, I got this quarter, it has three squads in it" and I get to say "Sure, but they are like 95 points each, to 285 total, right? Well that squad there is worth 298 points, so I win the quarter."
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Gorsameth · 655 weeks ago

The army's at Nova were influenced a lot by the missions and are imo little use to study for Rulebook Missions. Table Quarters being decided by non vehicle unit cost killed every flyer and mech army that tried to perform. Having over half your army in models that cannot do anything with quarters is just to much. Regular Rulebook missions suffer a lot less from this. A single troop choice regardless of points will contest/capture objectives. It allows Mech/Flier to focus on killing key units instead of being able to only really win by tableling.

Plus Nightscythe spam will always be bad. Your paying 100 points for a single Tesla Destructor that cannot fire half the game (turn 1 off table, turn 4 your likely to have to fly off the table or spend 2 turns turning back into the battle)
1 reply · active 655 weeks ago
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Matt-Shadowlord · 655 weeks ago

Table quarters being decided by the points value of non-vehicles is a huge change to the balance of the game, and the armies at that event have to be viewed with that in mind.
There's othing wrong with that, but it gives a skewed view of army constructs in a similar way to an event that used only Big Guns and The Scouring might.
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Desc440 68p · 655 weeks ago

I've found that getting a fair bit of infantry is much more important now. Doesn't necessarily need to be Troops, but needs to at least be able to contest. Mech is still important, but cramming as many tanks as possible into a list is probably not going to work out as well as having a better balance between foot and mech units.
2 replies · active 655 weeks ago
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James · 655 weeks ago

I agree with this, obviously assuming those non scoring infantry are dangerous (long fangs etc). Taking all infantry generally prevents people optimising their firepower (they want to kill the scoring, but if they don't deal with the fangs they are likely to take damage!).
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Desc440 · 655 weeks ago

Yes, precisely.
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yazchar 62p · 655 weeks ago

I've been having a good amount of success since 6th edition has started using squads of my fire warriors that are 9 strong (not MSU or Max Size)....but 4-6 units of them (at less than 2000 points) and I've tended to keep them near each other so if one unit flees or is wiped out the other is there to hold the objective. I've seen others around where I play taking plentiful amounts of mid (or larger) size scoring infantry (and just infantry in general as Desc440 has said). But I have to say I continue to see vehicles and even though Abuse Puppy flipped out on me last time for saying it I'm seeing vehicles stick around late into the game.

I think in 6th edition the old adage "play to the mission" is really apt.

Potential construct: a good amount of scoring units, usually infantry (out of a transport!) that can hold objectives any way they can!
3 replies · active 655 weeks ago
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SageoftheTimes 77p · 655 weeks ago

Another thing to consider here is how playing to the mission interacts w/ scoring choices. Tau can take Kroot to camp objective more effectively (more models per point, certain kinds of cover will make them more resilient), allies are better then either choice usually, and weither you can use smaller MSU that's out of LoS to protect things.
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yazchar 62p · 655 weeks ago

True Kroot are less expensive but I would recommend against them for two reasons. 1.) Cover got worse, by one point I know but it makes a difference, on top of this some circles are little iffy about woods/jungles now because of "mysterious terrain", where I've been playing they haven't been using them too much, this is silly meta I know but the weakening of cover is big. 2.) getting a 8 ld on Kroot requires a costly Shaper and I really want an 8 leadership to hold objectives.

I feel like overall I'd rather take my chances with Fire Warrior's 4 armor, 5 cover save than Kroot's no armor and 4 cover save (if I'm lucky).

You're right though Sage, something like Eldar Rangers or even just Tac Marines would be great too...but strength 5 guns are nice for chipping away hull points from something 30 inches a way! (Opponents frequently don't seem consider worrying too much about exposing rear/side armors to Fire Warriors...big mistake.) I guess Fire Warriors are useful because they are a pretty good mix of survivability, damage output and not to high of a cost...compared to what else I can take anyway. Actually Orc Boyz Might be the strongest choice.

For the purposes of this thread though: still, lots of scoring infantry that can survive, somehow.
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ace · 655 weeks ago

I tried using rangers. while that ap1 thing is nice, generally it never works (still need 4s to wound) and they're SOO expensive. because of that, I tended to min size them, and then be horribly worried aout flamers, since one shot would wipe them basically 100% of the time. YMMV, but i'd rather go w/ 15-20 boys or IG over 5 rangers.

and gtg behind an aegis line for 2+ cover if that's important, or take SM scouts with flame proof armor ;) .
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Brymm · 655 weeks ago

Locally, lots of troops have been doing extremely well. Footdar has been doing good, esepically the Harlistar concept. Another guy has been using lots of ratlings to good effect. I am seeing lots of quad guns/ aegis defense lines being used to good effect. Another guy is using Tervigon spam with a whole lot of fearless gaunts to good effect also. The armies are still evolving.
A local tourney was recently won by Scythe spam though, it was demoralizing watching the players he was playing slowly lose their spirit when they saw how worthless most of their army was against him.
I really like the "play to the mission" adage also. I would think Troops supported by all sorts of things would have a chance. Go figure.
7 replies · active 655 weeks ago
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SageoftheTimes 77p · 655 weeks ago

This is where people need to take a balanced list. Those players who feel demoralized need to reexamine their list and include more twin-linked firepower, possibly swap in some mech, or think about how to deal with fliers (they're not impossible to deal with).
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Alastores · 655 weeks ago

I think the issue is that if you've made an army that's got the type of firepower to be able to meaningfully combat scythespam, it's not gonna do much to everything else.

It's not that people can't cope with one or two fliers. It's that people can't cope with nine.
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James · 655 weeks ago

I think it's probably a little early to be saying that, while yes most armies can put out AA either themselves or through allies (lol tyranids), they might not always be the best choice! Marines could put out two stormtalons or 3 rifledreads, but they would gimp other parts of their lists. In my mind, only guard, necrons and grey knights can take AA without sacrifice atm.
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clever handle · 655 weeks ago

dark eldar voidraven is a nice AA platform with the ability to punish ground armor. Pay a couple extra points to give it some missiles for the one or two game turns it may be able to line up a nice cluster of infantry. AV11, if you show up before your enemies flyer, move 36" drop your void-bomb on some heavy armor & then move flat-out off the board to automatically come back in on turn 3 & Hopefully ninja the opposing flyer with 2x S9 lances.
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James · 655 weeks ago

Oh my god, that is amazing. Outflanking vendettas could pull this off!
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James's avatar

James · 655 weeks ago

Oh wow! I am very impressed with that tactic! Works with all fliers though, but with bombers its even more hilarious! Also a way for a list with a couple of fliers to overcome something like flyerwing!
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chumbalaya 79p · 655 weeks ago

Flyers get beaten by missions. They really have to do a lot of damage to make up for not scoring or denying and only being on the board 1/2 the game at most. You don't need to invest heavily in AA like you don't need to invest heavily in anti-AV14 or anti-horde. Balance is key.
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Discospawn · 655 weeks ago

Were the new universal psychic powers a factor in any meaningful way? People made a big deal about it at release, but I don't think it's something you'll ever see in the competetive scene.
8 replies · active 655 weeks ago
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MeatPossum · 655 weeks ago

At the Nova Open, Tony Kopach (Undefeated, 1st Place) used Rulebook powers with Njal and a Primaris Psyker.
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Gorsameth · 655 weeks ago

Actualy Njal kept his original powers every game on stream
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Marko · 655 weeks ago

I believe Njal kept his power, but he had an IG Primaris Psyker also with biomancy maybe?
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Behemothh · 655 weeks ago

njal did sometimes swap out for divination. the blob having a 4++ from it was the reason it was able to tank a BRUTAL fusillade from tzeench flamers and screamers in the final.
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DarkLink · 655 weeks ago

I would expect to see a lot of GK players with Divination. For other armies like Chaos, the chance of getting Invisibility or Hallucination is worth the chance, because those power can be incredibly powerful. Not everyone will use the book powers, but some people absolutely will. I know I'll be taking Coteaz as a mini-farseer in most of my lists now, with rerolls to hit and a host of other cool powers.
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Gramps · 655 weeks ago

They were certainly popular. Almost half of my opponents in the 14 games I played had Coteaz with rulebook powers. Lots of Coteaz/GK allies and GKs with necron allies.
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Discospawn · 655 weeks ago

Interesting, I wouldn't have expected people to take the risk. I think Divination has already been decided as the best/favorite for most armies, especially when using allies that they can cast the powers on.
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Azrell's avatar

Azrell · 655 weeks ago

I dont think most people knew to watch for Desperate allies that were too close.
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CAG's avatar

CAG · 655 weeks ago

Mech MSU didn't take off in 5th edition at first because Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Grey Knights hadn't gotten their current codices until later into the edition. The drop of points-cost for Razors drove the build, IMO
2 replies · active 655 weeks ago
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Azrell · 655 weeks ago

BA razorbacks are actually more expensive and SW and nilla are not that less expensive than say DAs or templars.
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WestRider · 655 weeks ago

Wolves were the first to get them both cheap and with a good, cheap Scoring Unit to carry in them. BTs could kind of do 3rd/4th Ed Las/Plas+Razor Spam, but have trouble taking Objectives with a build like that, and didn't have much in the way of good Fire Support to back it up.
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Sethis_II 87p · 655 weeks ago

Ironically Footdar has gotten better, while Mechdar has gotten worse. Several reasons from what I can see:

1. Purchasable terrain. There's a huge difference between "you'll probably get cover" and "you WILL get cover". And lots of it. Also, Farseers on Quad guns is hilarious.
2. Fearless. The Avatar is now pretty damn special provided you can keep him alive. All the MC buffs combined with the 12" Fearless bubble is very useful. Last game there was a Command Squad on Bikes with Hammers heading over to tear him a new one, so I dropped 20 Fearless Guardians in the way. Problem solved.
3. S6 torrent is alive and well, and War Walkers do it best. Get some Prescience/Guide going on them and watch them torrent down Psyflemen and Flyers. The problem is getting the Alpha Strike every time, but Scout helps that.
4. Grav Tanks got hit hard with the Nerfbat. Suddenly paying 180+ points for a scoring unit that has to disembark to do so, and only contributes 6-7 S6 shots on a perfect day doesn't look so hot compared to 2 medium sized jetbike units that can hide all game long, but the opponent still has to deal with, lest they turbo 36" and land on an unguarded objective. Or even some allied Space Marines of any colour.

This isn't to say that Footdar have become OMGWTF overpowered, just that I think the power gap between them and Mechdar has narrowed considerably. Therefore we might mock Kirby a bit less the next time he loses to them...

... just kidding. Mock away! ;)
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Azrell's avatar

Azrell · 655 weeks ago

Im starting to think we see the rise of the tactical squad. With the change to nads and snap fire they can easily get in close and wreck vehicles plus hold there own vs MCs. With the changes to combat squads you can actually put one half on the board and the other in reserve, ie the 5 with the heavy weapon can start on the board and the others in a razorback in reserve. Still not the uber unit but mush more viable now.
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Wyrmnax · 655 weeks ago

I believe MSU has become even more prevalent.

While on the old edition you could make do with something like 30 marines for troops because of the 2/3rds of the missions being objective based, nowadays we have 5/6s of the missions requiring scoring bodies on the table. Troops become even more prevalent, and they are usually best brough in a 1+1 way. Especially because you still require multiple independent troops.

The trend i see is that anyone that cant combat squad is bringing ~5 troop squad into 2k points. Thats far more than i used to see in 5th. It also royally screws armies that dont have reasonable troops, although this is mitigated by allies.

Vehicles, especially high AV sit back ones, are seeing more play. They are now much less vulnerable to being perma stunned, so you can actually get some use out of them.
1 reply · active 655 weeks ago
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Algesan · 655 weeks ago

I'm not fond of mass MSU lists so much. Why? Because sufficient firepower can blow them off the map. Instead more resilient units work just as well. Of course, mass amounts of cheap scoring units are resilient in their own way, but even in 5th, probably the largest number of objective games I won were won 1-0 or 2-1 because I simply blew away my opponents' MSU scoring units. True, part of the reason I got away with it was that all of my 5 scoring units were off board in drop pods (BT, old codex, no half on the board on turn 1 rule), so I didn't have to have them all under fire for 5+ turns. Despite having the wrong kind of list at NOVA, the reason why I came so close to winning four games was being able to default to "kill them all" and clear objectives.
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chumbalaya 79p · 655 weeks ago

Scoring bodies are very important. Vehicles are still needed as support units, but can't be the main component of your army.

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