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Friday, September 7, 2012

Thoughts on 6th edition List Constructs


So with NOVA over and some feedback from others going on, let's look at what's been kicking around my head lately in terms of list constructs for 6th edition. This is by no means the be all and end all, it's just things I've noticed throughout practice games.

1) Mech/Foot relationship

NOVA put a pretty hefty emphasis on what 6th edition has done to vehicles in terms of not scoring and not denying with table quarters. Despite this, a lot of the top armies had vehicles in them, just the top 2 didn't. So everyone unwind your knickers here - yes I think table quarters need to be re-visited but no vehicles aren't dead. What is dead is the vehicle spam where it takes up over half your army or even a significant chunk in terms of points. Even in normal objective missions, that's too many points which are essentially useless when it comes to achieving/denying end-game mission parameters.

This isn't to say vehicles are bad. Far from it, but you can't spend as many of your points on them as you used to which means foot units are going to see more use. The good mech is going to be stuff which is efficient and causes lots of damage. I.e. Manticores, Psyfledreads, flyers, etc. or vehicles which are cheap and bring all the tools of their trade to the midfield such as Rhinos, Chimeras, Psybacks, etc. Spamming 6+ LasPlas or Passbacks, etc. is probably a thing of the past though they aren't completely dead. Vehicles with higher AVs and ranged weapons are likewise still a solid concept - Glancing hits are no longer suppression tools and higher AVs limit the ability of weapons to do Hull Point damage.

Regardless, vehicle saturation is less likely in terms of overall points used though you still might see quite a lot of vehicle hulls running around. These extra points are going to go into larger or more infantry units and thus a trend of more infantry is likely to be seen.

What's really important here as well, is both unit types help each other. Any infantry model with a grenade is a scary prospect to a vehicle. Even mass S4 attacks will reliably strip a Vehicle of Hull Points in short order unless it has AV11 or better on the rear. Combat is a place vehicles don't want to be and infantry can help protect them from opposing combats whilst also giving vehicles cover thanks to the 25% rule. This means vehicles can provide the mobility and cheap/efficient firepower you want whilst also bringing in the LoS blocking and Flat-out options infantry really want later in the game when you need to keep them alive. It's a mutually beneficial relationship where both unit types can help each other out throughout the course of a game.

2. Flyers

Spamming them sucks. This seemed to be pretty widely accepted before hand but taking any more than three, MAYBE four, is just a bad idea. Not only do they suffer like vehicles above but they don't bring the utility that a bawks on the ground does and if you don't have hover, you're losing firepower for most of the game in some capacity. Yes they are a fine option but they aren't something you need or you need a lot of. There are a lots of ways to counter them without actually shooting at them. Flyers without hover are also far less scary due to their limited mobility and flyers with Hover become a lot easier to shoot down if they start hovering.

3. MSU (multiple small units)

Part and parcel of the vehicle aspect, mass MSU appears to be, for all intents and purposes, dead. That's not to say MSU aspects within an army don't work but if your scoring is centered around only MSU units, well expect to lose. Firstly, you'll likely be spending more points on vehicles. Again, not an issue if done right and the balance is found (i.e. 8 Rhinos is a paltry 280 points, I can live with that. 8 Psybacks is 400 - still workable. But 8 Passbacks or Wave Serpents? That's 700+ points...) but if that's the entirety of your army, the improvement in shooting, particularly anti-infantry fire, is going to see them drop pretty quickly. Changes to Rapid-fire weapons and cover (and thus an increase in plasma weaponry) means 5-man Marines die pretty quickly now BUT anytime you get left with just a couple of models, they are very easy to hide with the amount of Wrecks strewn across the table.

That's relying a bit on luck though and thus having a couple larger units out there to suffer the improved shooting is going to be important to ensuring units make it to the end of the game to score. MSU is a great addition to an army to give one more options, firepower and flexibility but by itself is going to struggle to maintain momentum in 6th edition.

4. The Relationships between all of these

What's really important is balancing all these factors together. MSU maximised might not be as good but the core concepts of what MSU does (flexibility + more firepower) are still key. If you can get six large units in, that's better than four large units, etc. Vehicles and mech transports are still solid options just not as spammable. Taking something like backfield support vehicles such as Predators, Dreadnoughts, etc. along with CHEAP and EFFICIENT midfield vehicles/transports gives you the ranged firepower and durability you need along with all the utility options a moving metal bawks gives you in midfield WHILST adding to your firepower and army.

In the end it goes like this. You need scoring infantry to win games. You need infantry to stop your opponent from winning games if your firepower fails. Everything else needs to support this so if you're finding games where you cannot deny your opponents their objectives whilst maintaining yours, you're probably looking at too little infantry and/or firepower and need to tweak that balance in the other direction. If you find you're being out-manuvered and having difficulty keeping your infantry alive, you're probably looking at too much infantry and not enough support, etc. (though pure foot lists are more likely to see use in 6th).

Conclusion

I think the major conclusion I've drawn so far, and it appears many others have as well, is Hybrid and balance is where it's at. There will always be extreme builds which find themselves doing well, but I imagine armies which are mixing large and small units and foot and vehicle units are going to be doing the best overall. You're getting the best of each world whilst minimising the inherent weaknesses of each.

In the end, Hybrid is really the name of the game so far. And yes, this is still mostly speculation and thinking - but it's been/being honed by playing experience. We could see this evolve a lot or a little over the coming months.

Comments (24)

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Vehicles and flyers exist almost purely to support your scoring units, not act as scoring themselves. Good vehicles will protect scoring units, ferry scoring units, kill enemy scoring units/vehicles (more efficiently than scoring units) and the like. Bad vehicles will cost too much for too little effect.
2 replies · active 655 weeks ago
An accurate TL;DR of what was said, yes =D.
I said it better.
Interesting to read. But it all sounds like Dark Eldar are simply unplayable now. We rely on our transports to act effectively and without them, we're dead meat unless we stay in cover for the whole game. But we can not do this, since we would lose if we did. So what are your thoughts on that?
7 replies · active 655 weeks ago
To be blunt, Dark Eldar are just...not so flash in 6th. They're like Tyranids of 5th. They don't suck crap like a lot of people think they do but they're very, very hard to consistently beat opposing good forces consistently.
So what do you think is an effective concept? Keep on fielding Wyches w/ Haywires in Raiders, Warriors in Venoms and Ravagers as support? Maybe include a Razorwing or Voidraven? Some Lanceborns?
Well, with the cover rules, I think that Wych squads may be dead. They're solid as an offensive unit, but they're a scoring unit that disintegrates when it's not in cover, and still dies to Flamers. Instead, I'd run 6 squads of Warriors, and ALWAYS in cover. Is there some objective that's not in cover or within 3" of cover? Leave it alone, send Beasts out to contest it, and get an Aegis Defense Line for your side of the field so that you can always put cover near objectives, but don't bother sticking out the fragile scoring units into the open.

Going to Ground in area cover is still 3+, and behind an ADL is 2+. I know the argument is that Troops die more easily, but when they're not very threatening, and they will GTG every time you put more than a wound into a squad, it's hard to remove 6 Troop units. 8, if you ally with Eldar and add in a pair of Jetbike or Ranger squads.

So that gives you the surviving Troops who can live to take objectives at the end of the game. Raiders/Venoms are still fine for them, just don't expect to stay in them. One turn to move towards objectives is the most I'd stay in the flying deathtraps, otherwise they're just mobile firepower. Beasts and Reavers are great both for damage and to give you some more survivable units that can advance, do damage, and contest.

I think that I'd want to go with Void Ravens and Razorwings over Ravagers now. Getting the extra Dark Lance shots to kill vehicles is less important, while the ability to handle opposing Flyers is more important. Void Ravens have the dogfighting ability where, if they come in first, you just move them across the field and off the board while dropping the bomb, so that you can usually get the alpha strike onto opposing Flyers with them. Razorwings bring nice anti-ground firepower (and for only 10 points, I like upgrading two missiles to the S7 blast... if you don't have Flyers to worry about, two S7 blasts instead of S6 will add a lot of anti-vehicle damage to your alpha strike).

I'm looking at the Baron, a Beast squad with him to provide CC ability and push into objectives, 6 Warriors behind separate ADL walls, 2 VRs and one Razorwing, an Allied Eldar squad with a Farseer and 2 Jetbike squads, then any leftover points into gunboats and maybe Trueborn.
Wow, That is really an interesting approach. What squad size did you plan for the Warriors? 5? 10 w/ DL or SC? Or even blobbs of 20?
5. 45 points, do nothing but shoot at infantry, and take cover when you're shot at.

What happens is the following: 25 pts for a Dark Lance is too much for a Heavy Weapon added to a Troop Squad. Having to buy their Squad Leader is weak. The Blaster is too expensive for a weapon that puts you into charge range. Basically, all of the upgrades aren't worth the points, but a BS4 poisoned shot is not bad for a scoring model. So, just use what they're okay at (anti-infantry, cheap, and scoring), and save points for stuff that actually works: Beasts, Flyers, maybe Ravagers and Trueborn. A smart opponent is hardly likely to dump fire into even scoring units when they're going to GTG for a 2+ behind the Aegis, and he has a 5-Beastmaster squad advancing on him with the Baron giving it Stealth.
That sounds pretty interesting. I think the new FAQs have blocked deploying your ADL walls as multiple seperate walls though, so you'll have to work with natural cover to spread your warriors out.
I'm a little surprised they didn't errata flickerfields to be stealth or shrouded, all things considered. Kind of off topic, but your MSU comments made me think a bit about it.. That would put moving OT skimmers about where they were in 5th.
"Part and parcel of the vehicle aspect, mass MSU appears to be, for all intents and purposes, dead."

I don't like this analysis. If I take a 5-man MSU squad, then look to beef it up for survival, I think that I get more survival ability by putting them in a Metal Bawks than by adding more bodies (for MEQ, at least). It still takes more firepower to remove the transport before you can begin killing the Troops, and you can't depend on wiping out more than 1 MSU squad at the end of the game with just shooting, as much of the starting firepower will be gone by the end of the game. And even if you kill the Transport, if it's only Wrecked, the Troops get out in its shade, just like they were planning to do automatically on Turn 5, to take the objective. The ability to soak up the firepower that would have killed more than its points in foot models, and even afterwards to provide cover, means that it's more survivable to add additional units in transports, than to add more bodies to existing units. At least until you max out on Troop slots, at which point the only place to go is with more bodies.

I think we will see more of a shift in philosophy with how MSU squads are used (not as aggressive as in 5th), rather than a shift away from MSU. I don't see a reason to run more than 6x5 Plague Marines, or 30 other MEQ in 6 squads, etc. Now, maybe for Eldar/DE/Tau, we have a problem with running 6 MSU Troops, but what we may end up is just that these armies will have to plan on running 8 MSU Troops by always allying someone in, rather than beefing up their squads.
5 replies · active 655 weeks ago
Agreed, I think it's far too early to count "pure" MSU out of the game. They've received a huge benefit from the odds of playing Kill Points dropping from 1/3 to 1/6 and if the opponent is running fewer, larger, squads then a basic principle of MSU is reinforced - overkill. He has to point his 10 Tac Marines and Rhino at my 5 Grey Hunters while I can point my two units of 5 and two razorbacks anywhere I want (just as an example). I have more control over the direction and amount of firepower I put out, and my opponent has less. Regardless of having to hop out turn 5 (and if my opponent can deal with 4 seperate troop choices hiding behind 4 vehicles on 4 seperate objectives by turn 5 - I've fucked up) that advantage is worth keeping.
I agree here, not so much dead as "badly burned and in need of reconstructive surgery". The actual premise of MSU is still fine, but you have to adjust your way of looking at vehicles as invulnerable scoring bawkses of doom. The core adjustment, IMO, is to adjust the squad size up slightly and the vehicle saturation down to compensate. A huge part of this is that transports can reliably transport models now, no getting stunlocked backfield.

I do disagree with the KP being a net gain: reduced cover and squishier vehicles make old MSU less viable in every game, you give up secondary's much quicker. The old "hidden fist" sarge also took it in the nads with challenges too.
I think the discussion is probably split up by different posters having different ideas of what "MSU is dead" means. Some will say that dead means that it's not a viable (threatening) build any more, and if you see an opponent running MSU, you should have an easy time if you have a good list on your own. By that definition, I can't see MSU as dead.

But others may say that it's no longer the undisputed heavyweight champion of the world, and that may well be true. Horde lists, hybrid lists, and some MSU with some big squads (IG Blobs, 2x30 Boyz, etc) all are much more viable in 6th than in 5th, so MSU is no longer the best option in almost every case. So by the token of "is it still the clear champion", then MSU probably IS dead. It's dead as king, but it lives on as a competitive option.
clever handle's avatar

clever handle · 655 weeks ago

I think MSU really is quite dead just because of what Kirby has stated. Survivability has really dropped just due to the increased volume of small arms fire as a result of the changes to rapidfire. However, armies like blood angels and grey knights who can bring aggressive and relatively powerful combat threats to bear & who also have access to combat squads will likely still see a lot of useage. I think that combat units (especially if you find yourself needing to push for longer charges...) benefit from MSU as the defender can only target a single unit with overwatch. By sending in multiple smaller waves you are partially able to mitigate your losses due to overwatch and by initiating more charges you can minimize the likelihood of failing completely. what I suggest isn't splitting into 2x 5 independant squads, but instead running 2x5 squads together. I think this works best for BA assault squads with priests.

This ability is further magnified now that only 1/6 missions will have you playing kill points.
What I'm saying is that if you play defensively and hide your MSU units behind metal boxes, then the Rapid Fire changes are only a benefit, not a hindrance. They're not getting Bolter shots into you until they remove the vehicle, and if it goes to a Wreck instead, it's permanent cover from part of the field. Meanwhile, the MSU 5-man MEQ squad can actually put out a bit of firepower and help without having to advance within 12"/

Yes, if you put them in the same situations as in 5th, thinking that you don't need them as much, they will go down. But if you say that they can now be effective at 24" while getting cover, rather than having to advance to 12" to rapid fire, and play defensively, then the increased care with which you use them makes up for their greater fragility. In 5th, we didn't really have the option to use them more carefully... we needed melta units to advance within 12", and bolter units pretty much also always advanced.

As an example... I'd never have run 5-man Warrior squads for DE in 5th, because they didn't do anything other than score, and Wracks did it better. Moving within 12" to rapid fire was almost suicidal. But now, I'm happy with a 45-pt barebones MSU squad that hides behind an ADL, shoots a bit at 24", and hits the dirt whenever someone thinks about them. That doesn't make the unit better, or more survivable, but it allows me to use it in a careful manner that makes it more survivable. An alternate version would be one pushing up through cover... not only do I get to fire on the move, but also to fire Snap Shots if I GTG... and with 3+ cover if GTG in Area Terrain, their defense wasn't greatly affected. It's not like they were getting a Pain Token in any case. So... statistically and rules-wise, MSU units are more fragile. But tactically, they are more useful when played defensively, which allows me to play them more defensively... and I think that the difference in tactics will at least make up for the difference in fragility.
i was running 9 lasplas razorbacks w/ 3 psyflemen, and i promise you it's now a total junk list ;) vehicles lots their blast protection and their melee protection in 6e, so it's now dead on arrival vs a manticore or 3x vendettas etc, and as far as quarters... nope. so the super spammy 14+ vehicle lists (or the ork 26 vehicle list) are done.

as far as running 6x5 guys w/ 6 rhinos/backs... yeah, that can still work (using them to flat out in front of infantry after they (the infantry) have shot as a running shield is a new concept that should be explored. a 35 point rhino that can save enough damage that would have killed 1 terminator or 2 marines is a good investment, especially if you're moving towards a DE posion block (and you can probably position block the charge to avoid most of the overwatch).

anyways, MSU as I was running it is truly dead, but msu w/ cheap boxes in the troop section can still work well.
I say this in all seriousness. Since 6th has hit I have had to rethink how to run my Nids, when it comes to Tyranids and troops I am now of
the opinion that Termagants are now point for point one of the better troop options in the game (when in Synapse range).

For 150 pts you get 30 Gants with a 12 inch strength 4 weapon who are fearless (again when in Synapse range).

Put that against a lot of other troop options from the other codex’s and again point for point I think the Gants will win (obviously not all the time!! Haha).

When backed up with a Tervigon they become pretty insane.
Did you have an article on handling fliers? If you did, I missed it. In either case, without seeing the article I feel that fliers are terribel (for the game) because they are immune to assault (one third of the game), and most units are at most 1/2 as effective against them, which is inversely proportionate to their ballistic skill. If you want any chance against them, you are nailed to the same one or two units in your army book that can deal with them, if your book has any at all (Orks are free to ignore this). If I am incorrect here, please, PLEASE prove me wrong. I just feel, right now, that they are ruining my fun with this game.
1 reply · active 655 weeks ago
Heh, don't panic. Flyers aren't all that. Three ways to deal with them: 1) Ignore them, 2) Get your own spam or 3) Just get a couple for yourself.

People seemed to do #1 fairly well and unless the tournament scene changes, it will stay a viable option. Slower games demand faster developing armies, which means more minis on the table, which means even more to slow down games.

#2 An option I don't care for unless you want to seriously practice maneuvering them around. Let alone the cost and potential for disaster.

#3 Which is the source of the potential for disaster. A couple of flyers keeps the other player honest. If they don't bring any, then you have dakka from above. If they have a couple too, try to splash theirs on top of their troops and stay on top of their troops in case you get splashed....
What's all this 3+ GTG in area terrain?? The BYB states area terrain as 5+! p18
1 reply · active 653 weeks ago
Models that Go to Ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save instead of +1. (p.91, bottom of first column.)

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