Tyranids:
2x Tyranid Prime w/Lash Whip, Bonesword, STalons, Toxin, Regen
3x2x Hive Guard
2x Tervigon w/Catalyst, Toxin, Adrenal
2x10x Termagants
2x10x Genestealers w/Toxin
2x Dakkafex
1740 points
Would like to get some extra points here and there to grab a Broodlord for each of the Genestealers for some more psychic flexibility.
Blood Angels:
Mephiston
2x Priest w/Jump Pack
2x10x Assault Marines w/2x Meltaguns, PFist
2x10x Assault Marines w/2x Plasmaguns, PFist
2x Stormraven
1760 points
Not really sure about this one. 40 Jumpers is nice but not as durable as last edition as they drop from a 3+/4+ or 4+/4+ or a straight 4+ to 3+/5+ or 5+/5+. Mephiston is going to be hard to hide as well and my only ranged shooting is the Stormravens and some plasma weaponry...
Grey Knights:
Inquisitor Coteaz
Inquisitor w/Psychic Power
2x10x Strikes w/2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo, MC Hammer, Rhino
2x5x Strikes w/Psycannon, Psyback
2x8x Psykers, Acolyte, Chimera w/Searchlight
3x Psyfledread
More vehicles here but we've also got 50 infantry, 48 of which scores (and 16 of which tries to fry itself). The vehicles overall aren't expensive outside of the Dreads so not a huge loss there and having the larger Strikes gives me more durability there.
Anyway, discuss. Tyranids are fully painted, BA + GK will require extra painting at this point but isn't that always the way?
Logging you in...
Strategist · 655 weeks ago
shasel mike · 655 weeks ago
James · 655 weeks ago
Atrotos · 655 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 655 weeks ago
Rohnan · 655 weeks ago
giantkillertrl 37p · 655 weeks ago
Good luck at the tournament!
abusepuppy 121p · 655 weeks ago
>get rid of Psybacks
>take Plasma Servitors that can't ID stuff or kill tanks effectively
Are you trying to sabotage him? That's not very nice.
Coyote81 · 655 weeks ago
I'd rather have psybacks filled with special weapon wielding acolyte(perferably plasma) to help with dealing with terminators and similiar units. 114pts for 6x acolytes w/ 3x SB 3x PG psyback with Psyammo + Searchlight. if you drop the psykers your can get to of the stated units with enough leftover for a Coteaz bodyguard type unit(maybe a 3x meltaservitor 2x PG acolyte in a Chimera) or perhaps something crazy with a aegis defenseline to give your psybacks cover saves.
Coyote81 · 655 weeks ago
Coyote81 · 655 weeks ago
Pornotheater · 655 weeks ago
Other than that I like your advice, really I like both lists, but I'm inclined to be prudent.
Coyote81 · 655 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 655 weeks ago
Now, to be honest I don't think that this is how I'd build such an army, but Kirbs is working under both rules restrictions (no allies) and model restrictions.
Depending on how the tournament handles fortifications an Aegis can be a big help, though. Being able to lay 4+ cover wherever you want can really change things.
Coyote81 · 655 weeks ago
I do agree I don't like the way he's building his army, I believe he needs to go heavier on henchmen for troop, and only bring in the specialized PA guys for back/up. Eventually I want a GM/Coteaz army, heavy hencmen with interceptors and dreadnoughts/knights.
abusepuppy 121p · 655 weeks ago
The issue I see with running Plasma or whatever in their place is it leaves him very vulnerable to hammer units, especially multiwound ones. A unit of Nob Bikerz ploughing towards him has to really consider if they want to risk his Psykers annihilating most of the squad is Kirby rolls that 30% chance of putting the blast right on top of them; against Plasma, Storm Bolters, etc, they're unlikely to be particularly scared. Likewise with tank formations, disembarking, etc- the Psykers force opponents to consider the consequences, because one good shot with them can change a whole game.
Coyote81 · 655 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 655 weeks ago
The Snapfire thing isn't a big deal because they virtually never want to get out. I usually run my Psykers in a Rhino (rather than a Chimera) so it's not an issue.
Coyote81 · 655 weeks ago
Coyote81 · 655 weeks ago
giantkillertrl 37p · 655 weeks ago
Yes, I'm recommending he drop the psyker henchmen. Note that dropping psyker henchmen from the list entirely only slightly decreases your chance of their psychic blast going off. Psyker henchmen trying to cast on LD8 are pretty much the definition of unreliable. Then add in scatter and deny the witch and the fact that you lose the whole unit on a perils and you get a unit that's not really worth taking.
Yes, I'm recommending he drop the Psybacks and hoof it or deep strike the strikes. The best things about strike squads are their storm bolters and psycannons, neither of which they can use from inside a psyback.
Yes, I'm recommending he take Plasma Cannon Servitors. Honestly, have you even tried these in 6th? Stick an el-cheapo inquisitor in to stave off mindlock and give them prescience. They're fantastic at killing transports now that any part of the small blast template scores a S7 AP2 hit. They're also fantastic at killing pretty much everything else. And prescience keeps 'em honest. A unit of these guys with coteaz' "I've been expecting you" is absolutely obscene against drop pods, daemons, etc. Try it before you knock it.
abusepuppy 121p · 655 weeks ago
Already replied about with why I think Psykers are useful to the list. Getting rolled by a deathstar is bad times and transport walls are still a thing. Having a relatively cheap solution to both is a good thing, especially when it's also scoring.
>GKSS on foot
Really bad plan when your army is 24" range. Transports provide that critical first turn of movement to help get you where you need to be and add firepower (with better range than most of your stuff, no less) as well as being able to do Flat Out shenanigans and such. Arriving in an unreliable position on T2, 3, or even 4 standing in "template me" formation is really not a great plan.
>Plasma Servitors
I'm not saying Servitors are bad- I love Servitors, and with Plasma being more functional in 6E the PC ones are actually pretty decent. However, they don't do most of the things that the Psykers do for the list, which is why I think they're a poor fit. It gives him a tool against heavy infantry and that's basically it.
With 30 GKSS in the army, the chances of a Deep Striking unit landing within 12" of his army should be slim-to-none, and he already has a pretty excellent buddyup squad for Coteaz in the full-strength GKSS if that's what he's looking for. Three small blasts can do some very real damage to DSers, but so can eight S7 and sixteen S5 shots (likely with rerolls, no less.)
giantkillertrl 37p · 655 weeks ago
Deathstars are bad times, I agree. But as always, deathstars are best handled by just blocking their movement, feeding them sacrificial units, or just making them roll dice until they fall down. That last one got even easier thanks to the new FAQs. Anyhow, Grey Knights can do all of those things quite well. An unreliable S10 AP2 blast is not a solution to deathstars and it's not really something Grey Knights need. How many times do you believe you'll get to fire this thing at nob bikers before they're in your face and locked in combat for the rest of the game? Once? Twice maybe if you catch them between combats? Those averages you posted are all well and good but I'm pretty sure you can't count on "average rolls" when your sample size is two. Is sample size the right word here? I'm no statistician, but hopefully you catch my drift. One of my chief principles of listbuilding is Murphy's Law, and my experience has taught me that the more chances you give something to fail, the more likely it's going to fail at the worst possible time.
I disagree that footslogging grey knights is a "really bad plan". I'd argue that Grey Knights are in fact one of the most capable footslogging MEQ armies out there - thanks to that 24" range you're so worried about. Being able to fire at nearly full effect (minus 2 shots per psycannon) at 24" range means you extend a large threat bubble on the move, and once you're at the middle of the board you're threatening most of it. You're a bit slower off the mark, but you make up for it with the mobility gained from deep strike. Deep striking is risky, but nowhere near as bad as it was before. In fact, 6th is the least risky Deep Striking has been since I started playing. I'm not advocating deep striking the entire army, but keeping a strike squad or two in reserve to deep strike onto an empty objective, into the enemy backfield, or just wherever else you might need it to support of your other forces can be incredibly helpful. If you deep strike conservatively (and run to spread out, if necessary) you shouldn't have any problems with the "template me" formation.
As for deep strikers landing within 12" of kirby's army, you're right that shouldn't happen, unless he goes 2nd, or gets seized on, and doesn't have a chance to get quake up before the first wave comes in. Take a look at Hulksmash's recorded game from this year's NOVA on the 11th company feed for an example of how unpleasant that can be. I agree with you that a full strike squad is great company for coteaz, but 3 plasma cannon blasts on a unit in deep striking "template me" formation is just ridiculous.
I also disagree that plasma cannon servitors are "a tool against heavy infantry and that's basically it." They're great at stripping hull points thanks to the new blast rules vs. vehicles. They're fairly decent at outright exploding transports, too, thanks to the +1 from being AP2. They're great at taking out all kinds of infantry, just because of the sheer number of wounds they spit out. And they do it all more reliably than psykers (assuming you spring for an inquisitor to babysit, which does make them more expensive!). As more and more foot lists start popping up, these guys are definitely going to see more action in my lists.
In short, (though this reply was anything but short) no, I'm not trying to sabotage Kirby. Are you?
abusepuppy 121p · 655 weeks ago
Isn't it? Are there a lot of other S10 AP1 weapons available to Grey Knights? Having a diversity of weapon profiles is a significant benefit and, while it may be unreliable, the Psykers' blast is extremely effective when it works.
Yes, sometimes Psykers will just poop themselves out or do nothing the whole game- taking them is a risk. I generally don't encourage risk-taking in lists except when the upside is high and the cost is low, and I think Psykers fit that criteria.
>How many times do you believe you'll get to fire this thing at nob bikers before they're in your face and locked in combat for the rest of the game?
Generally twice, since it's 36" range. It should be a rare game when you don't get two shooting phases against something before it is locked in combat with you, especially with abundant vehicles that they have to crack first.
>I'd argue that Grey Knights are in fact one of the most capable footslogging MEQ armies out there
GK are very good at building hybrid armies, but I don't think they're very good at building foot armies. (Unless you support them with something else.) Remember, it's entirely possible to start 40" away from the enemy with the new deployments, at which point you are three turns of movement away from even being able to open up with your first shots; DSing won't solve this problem. Moreover, you suffer from a general lack of models even in a foot GK army; hybrid or mech can mitigate this by using the transports as protection.
DSing is certainly better than it's ever been and in many armies bringing in a DS unit late can be useful, I just don't think this is one of them. The fact that GKSS can teleport in is actually quite advantageous in certain situations and even Kirb's army may sometimes make use of it, but that will be an exception, not a rule, and isn't a reason to take a squad sans transport.
>unless he goes 2nd, or gets seized on, and doesn't have a chance to get quake up before the first wave comes in.
This is only relevant against Drop Pods/Daemons; Drop Pods have very few things that can scare him and attaching Coteaz to the GKSS is a much better plan than Servitors against Daemons (since weight of fire and high Str are more important than AP against them.) Also, units disembarking from a Drop Pod won't be particular easy prey for Plasma Cannon shots, so it seems odd to recommend that.
>Plasma Cannons vs transports
Eh. See the thing is, S7 still isn't that amazing- it works on Autocannons/Psycannons 'cause you get a bunch of shots, but throwing three Plasma Cannons at a transport is generally going to get you ~1HP off it if it has cover (and maybe a damage roll if you're lucky.)
giantkillertrl 37p · 655 weeks ago
So's a Shokk Attack Gun. Unreliable but effective on the slim chance it works shouldn't generally qualify something for inclusion in a competitive list.
"Remember, it's entirely possible to start 40" away from the enemy with the new deployments, at which point you are three turns of movement away from even being able to open up with your first shots" -AP
If the enemy sets up 40" away from you and sits there, that means they're conceding *at least* 2/3 of the board to you, and you still have deep strikers and psyflemen to reach out and touch them.
"Drop Pods have very few things that can scare him" -AP
Last time I checked massed plasma and melta fire is not something grey knights enjoy. Drop pod alpha strikes can be nasty. It's not something you're going to see a lot, but it's something to be ready for.
"attaching Coteaz to the GKSS is a much better plan than Servitors against Daemons (since weight of fire and high Str are more important than AP against them.)" -AP
Weight of fire and high STR... hmm... you mean like a ton of of S7 hits from plasma cannons? 'Cause that's what's likely to happen with a plasma cannon servitor squad fires on daemons bunched up in deep strike formation. Again I'm wondering if this is something you've actually tried. Try it before you knock it. Coteaz with a strike squad is fantastic, I agree with you there, just don't rule out the fun to be had with Coteaz attached to a nice squad of henchmen including plasma cannon servitors. If you want more volume of fire for the squad (and some ablative wounds), start adding storm bolter acolytes for a measly 7 points apiece.
"Also, units disembarking from a Drop Pod won't be particular easy prey for Plasma Cannon shots, so it seems odd to recommend that." -AP
What comes out of Drop Pods? MEQs. What do MEQs hate? Plasma. They won't be bunched up like deep strikers but they still die by the handful to plasma cannons.
Ultimately, this discussion of where to put coteaz is mostly irrelevant because it's incredibly unlikely someone will deep strike within 12" of coteaz on purpose when you have anything shooty attached to him. But deep strikers do scatter into unfortunately places, especially if your opponent's being less than conservative with their deep strikes. And that's really the point of coteaz against deep strikers - you put him with something scary and it creates an effective zone of denial even on top of turn one.
I'm just saying don't count out the little servitors that could. I think they're a vastly under-used henchmen configuration and I highly recommend them. Certainly more than I'd recommend psyker henchmen :D
Discospawn · 655 weeks ago
I think you'd be better off bringing some flying Hive Tyrants instead of the carnifexes, and using them as your HQ's instead of your Primes. You'll lose your wound allocation shenanigans, but you'll gain 2 much stronger, tougher units, and using Catalyst on them will be more effective than using it on 10 genestealers or a carnifex.
But obviously this is a tournament so you're limited by your models. If those are the only models you'll have ready, yeah, that's probably the most effective way to outfit them.
abusepuppy 121p · 655 weeks ago
Flyrants are gonna eat all of the anti-flyer weapons people are taking ebcause of Vendettas and Night Scythes, and they aren't nearly as tough as either of those things.
tzeentchling 76p · 655 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 655 weeks ago
The BA list I don't really like at all. Jumpers and Stormravens don't belong together, and it lacks any of the support elements that Blood Hammer, etc, use to tilt games in their favor.
The Tyranid list is okay, but 'Stealers without Broodlords seems kinda weird. Gargoyles, as you saw in our game, are really good at pushing early threats on the enemy and tying them up so your other forces can arrive; 'Stealers can support this, but I don't think they'll do the job on their own. I also don't really like Dakkafexes all that much- I mean, they're far from bad, but I'd just rather put those 200pts into something else.
Kirby 118p · 655 weeks ago
Swapping Genes for Gargs is an option, though I only have models for one squad, but I've found Dakkafexes to be quite useful despite the overall cover reduction. But ya, turning them into more bodies probably isn't a bad thing...
Pornotheater · 655 weeks ago
Princelarming · 655 weeks ago
- Never had any success with Genestealers in 6th - the drop in cover and FNP means a lot to 17 pts models, compared to Gargoyles, for instance...
- Speaking of Gargoyles - they work better now - i'd think about exchanging one (or both) of the Genestealer broods to get points for Gargz and Zoans, as described below. Generally, 'Stealers don't get to score objectives anyway, because they get thrown into assaults and generally get beaten up (over the course of the game...)
- I got Psychic Support from a pair of Zoanthropes, changing their powers for rolls on the Biomancy Table - thhus being able to cast Blessings on both 'Fexes, Tervi's and possibly themselves...
- Tried both solo-fexes a couple of times and a Fexstar last game, and while the threat of a couple of fexes with Prime support, Regeneration and Endurance cast on them is immense, it's better to go with the added flexibility of two units...
TheWolfsLunch 61p · 655 weeks ago
Princelarming · 655 weeks ago
Amazing Horse · 655 weeks ago
Also, maybe I´m a noob, but I like Deathspitters on Primes. It´s not much, but hey, it´s a heavy bolter, and I think we´ve all seen Chimeras get lucky with those.
N.I.B. · 655 weeks ago
chumbalaya 79p · 655 weeks ago
I support BA, keep Mephy hidden and life will be good.
mattshadowlord 55p · 655 weeks ago
I've even see an tournament that banned allies but allowed Forge World, for all the sense that makes :D
Hopefully we'll see more 'rule book' 40k soon.
Pornotheater · 655 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 655 weeks ago
Kirby 118p · 655 weeks ago
;)
Pornotheater · 655 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 655 weeks ago
Plasma can help solve one of BA's big problems (getting rid of nasty stuff like MCs and hammer units), but I'm still not really sold on the list.
Wyrmnax · 655 weeks ago
Blood Angels... well, meh. I am not sure how dual stormravens will survive, but you have to think that some people will come prepare to deal with a necron flyerwing. Dual ravens seems quite mild in comparation. Also, the survivability drop from FNP and cover doesnt look good. And you dont really have melee besides mephiston. Blood Angels got worst on the charge due to the changes to FC, and got worst due to FNP. You are going to need to bring more stuff melee capable than to simply try to attrition down the enemy. For example, your own non-melee Grey knights list would give your blood angels a run for their money.
Grey Knights sound quite reasonable. Although if you are only bringing 2 psyker squads, why not bring them as elites and leave Coteaz out? A simple inquisitor will free quite a bit of points that could go towards another strike squad on troops.
Dakkath · 655 weeks ago
Alastores · 655 weeks ago
Carnifexes I have no idea.
Strategist · 655 weeks ago
Dakkath · 655 weeks ago
WestRider · 655 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 655 weeks ago