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Tuesday, March 23, 2010

Reply out: Ninja Tau & Anon

I should of done this as a reply out before but oh well. Link can be found here with comments at the bottom. Anon was replying to my posts on why Ninja Tau is good rather than just really bad. I’ll point out a few things here and then give some examples in a more comprehensive reply rather than a point by point reply.

Firstly, if you’re taking a hybrid Tau and making it a potentially Ninja Tau, why? Hybrid don’t need any of the ‘benefits’ of Ninja Tau and you’re just making it a less reliable list. As I said before if you want to reserve, just reserve rather than trickle on units. Other armies can do far better alpha strikes and earlier in the game. If you don’t want to reserve simply use delaying tactics through kroot and piranhas to avoid opponent alpha strikes and go from there. Saying Tau aren’t one of the best shooting armies in the game is...well backwards. We will now look at some examples with a good hybrid list which has had a positional relay added (since Anon said hybrid tau can do this).

So let’s look at 2 Tau lists that are the exact same except one has positional relay and decides to go Ninja. We’ll assume the non-ninja goes first as the Ninja Tau generally wants to go second to maximise their reserve alpha strike and objective abilities. So with 2 turns of movement the Piranhas will have capped the Commander w/positional relay. Which means the Ninja Tau has given the normal Tau two turns to get into better firing positions, outflank their Kroot if they wish and now only 50% of their army comes on T2. Fail for Ninja Tau.

Let’s look at Marines/IG. Speeders/Vens have the same option as the Piranhas from the normal Tau with the added benefit that all their guns are in range such as MMs and meltas. This is going to negate most of your Dpods for the majority of the army and once again you come in piece meal.

Eldar or DE? They don’t care. They are more mobile than you and have the firepower to take out units as they trickle on as well and are certainly capable of moving around to pop the commander. Whilst you may limit their overall shooting a lot of firepower is going into those few units on the board and let’s not deny either of the Eldars’ abilities to damage stuff, it’s just insulting.

Orks? Well you’ve just taken the advantage from Tau and given it to the Orks. They’ll be in assault range when your army comes on and can use their weight of fire against whatever is trickling on. So they aren’t good at destroying tanks? Those lootas are at least going to shake your Railheads and Broadsides aren’t really going to scare Orks since they don’t have rate of fire. Rather than blasting Orks from T1 and denying them access to your whole army through screens and blocks you’ve let them advance up the field willy nilly. Same goes for Tyranids but they have much more reliable anti-tank and speed so will be a lot scarier. Immo spam WH? Well the same deal really, you don’t want them close so shoot them far away. Whilst they don’t have the speeders of the other Imperial armies they can easily live with you “Ninjaing” with your positional relay. They are so happy you aren’t there on T1 shooting at them, blocking them and screening them.

Do you see the pattern here? People are joyous when Tau don’t shoot at them and as I said in point one, by playing Ninja Tau you are doing half your opponent’s job for him. It’s never a good thing, if you want to reserve, reserve don’t sac units for no gain and try and alpha strike later in the game where other armies are often better due to range limitations.

Edit: replying out again from Anon's reply to my reply. Will quote specific bits:

1. Tau can pump out a lot of fire early in the game yes, but so can alot of other armies nowdays. The main difference is that Tau are alot worse at withstanding that incoming fire than other armies, and if your enemy is smart and targets the right units that erosion becomes faster. We rely on our suits for decent midrange weaponry, but they are highly expensive and far less survivable in 5th due to the changes in LOS rules. Tau are good at shooting yes, but i suspect not as good as they were - and each new Codex seems to enforce this further.

Tau are able to take their cover with them, suits can hide behind tanks walls and easily gain cover and block a little bit of LoS with one tank, etc. Tau aren't a glass cannon by any means. Yes they are inefficiently pointed in comparison to the new codecies but Tau are still up there in terms of firepower.

2. Screens are an option, certainly they work for the type of list you play (and its a good tactic I have used in similar lists myself - including my ninja Tau list when I have decided to deploy normally and not use my 15pt peice of wargear). But against some opponents the world of hurt is coming that screening is not so effective, especially with the variety of DS and OF, not to mention infiltration options on the table right now.

Name a situation when blocking or screens aren't viable? Those screens are better against deployment types because it negates their advantage. I'd like to pod into your forces! Well you can't because I've got this nice little screen here which forces you away from me. DS Defense 101.

Not sure what you're trying to get at with point 3, explain further? But why also would we forego the option of wiping out when we can? To 4 I see lots of FW based Ninja Tau, whilst this might not be how you run it, it does take advantage of what Ninja Tau gives you, the ability to move on with full firepower at shorter range. This is a liability against most armies so as you said why bother with FW. So since we aren't using FW you still haven't pointed out why Ninja Tau is more effective than running normal Hybrid Tau and from your lack of appreciation in relation to screens as deployment defense I'm going to stab at you're using them incorrectly.

5. As you yourself point out Tau have decent range, alot of other lists now rely on Melta's, assualt etc as there main anti tank - You choose where your heavy support comes on, and bring it on in the most advantageous location to you - not right in front of a melta. - However, the first unit I normally bring on is Broadsides will ASS and a TL with HWTL and SHield Drones - Very hard to take out with longe range AT and very survivable - in turn 3 I could bring on a hammerhead or maybe stop using the relay altogether. Heavy Support does not always mean tank :)

6. Not if you position yourself well, make good use of the terrain and use distraction tactics and survivable units. Sometimes you sacrifice a unit to draw your enemy to a new location or just hold them up/draw fire. And you can stop using the relay at anypoint, on turn 3 your troops come in on a 3+ (so statistically 2/3rd of your reserves should arrive) - Just because you play NT does not mean you hold everything off for 4 turns.

My apologies on the HHead part as I did think you said that but it was on an unrelated part of the post. However, Broadsides or HHead are easy to neutralise for a whole army. Remember the vast majority of competitive lists today are very quick and will play right up the middle so if you deploy in either corner can still easily get to you. Tell IG/Eldar/DE/SM they can't deal with 5 T4/2+/4++ or an AV13 4+ cover save tank in one turn. You also seem tobe contradicting yourself. You say Tau firepower isn't that great because they are fragile yet you quite often refer to survivable units or claiming a few units can hold out versus a whole army.

7. And Broadsides are anti mech first ;) - Shutting down mobility in key areas in easily achievable, targeting the transports - even if it just holds up one unit is disrupting mobility - and drop pod lists etc are disrupted just by you not being on the table, that alpha strike just went bye bye :)

Again my apologies on the HHead aspect but this is still a max of 2 tanks damaged with a broadside unit compared to what a whole Tau army can do. Drop Pod lists get lol'd at with a simple kroot screen. Here's some kroot witha 2+ or 3+ save, melta/bolter them or try to go for my tanks which are outside of 2D6 range (quite potentially a full 12"), will have cover and leave you very open to a reprisal from my whole army. But yes, reserving is a good tactic against Pods and if you really wanted to use a positional relay for that purpose, eh okay, I'd rather spend the 15pts elsewhere but you're still bleeding two units, this is unavoidable and it is not then Ninja Tau as Ninja Tau is based around playing for a late game objective grab/neutralisation of the opponent's army which I can do from T1 with normal Tau because my firepower is generally > yours.

8. Well skyrays are a bad choice in any list imo, but i have seen plenty of people who rely on your sort of tactics take them too. - Markers on stealths is generally a bad idea, its better (in a good ninja list) to just bite the bullet and forgo the markerlights. Fireknives are a good configuration granted, but not the only configuration for a crisis suit. They work well with your tactics but another sort of list could well favour a different load out.

I see far too many people take Skyrays or Stealths, they are inefficient in comparison to suits, hammerheads and broadsides. And sure other suits (like TL-MP) can be better than MP/PR when you cover for more anti-infantry elsewhere but your list is far worse off as a whole. MP/PR make a list far more balanced. This has been covered many, many times.

honestly I enjoy the challenge of a good Ninja list more

It's a challenge because it's harder to win with, yes? Challenge doesn't mean you have to think outside the box. Against good opponent's you should always be doing this anyways. This point boils down to semantics though (oh how I love them).

It basically boils down to this, Ninja Tau is less efficient in relation to a normal Tau list as whilst it may in theory open more tactical options, these options can be quite limiting as you lose board control, initiative, firewpoer and overall effectiveness. What a Ninja Tau list can do, a normal Tau list can do better.

18 pinkments:

The_King_Elessar said...

A solid rebuttal. :)

Sholto said...

Indeed. Ninja Tau - making it harder for yourself since 2008.

Chumbalaya said...

N1NJ4 T4U is L33t, you are all noobs.

Oh wait, no, that's dumb.

Anonymous said...

On your Tau V Tau comment that very much depends on the terrain on the table - if you can hide your commander out of LOS then the long range Tau fire power wont be touching you, if you cant hide out of LOS then you simply deploy your commander with a small unit in cover - such as a small unit of Kroot, suddenly your Commander has 10 ablative wounds and 2 shield drones and is unlikely to die. As for Piranha's - it is extremely unlikely that they would cap a Commander in 2 turns. Turn 1 they boost, turn 2 they move into firing range - Assuming they both have Fusion Blasters, both fire, hit, and wound, thats 2 Shield Drones with a 4+ Inv and a very alive commander - The earliest two Piranha's would be able to take down a commander is turn 3 (if everything went there way) and that presupposes that the Tau Commander is not firing back, in fact, armed with a simple missile pod he is more likely to kill the Piranha's than the other way round.

That is kind of irrelevant however, given the fact that you dont have to play Ninja. Tau are actually terribly vulnerable to there own fire. The best anti Tau force is - Tau. In a situation where a Tau on Tau fight was in the offing, I personaly would choose to go first and deploy normally. If however my opponent won the roll and choose to go first, then I would play Ninja - One way I go first and get the chance to inflict crippling damage, the other I am not on the table to be damaged.

On your point about Drop Pods etc, well there your opponents have a choice - Generally in an Objectives game you position the relay well away from any game objectives - Your opponent can drop his pods down right beside the commander and try to blow him away - and if he does so he has an army of footsloggers who are miles away from the objective and have half a table to trudge across to get back in the action, or he can ignore the commander in which case he is giving up the promary reason for taking pods, and is now on the wrong foot as his battle plan has changed.

Orks - the chances are they will not be in assualt range when you army comes on, as you choose where you enter the table - ie, out of assualt range. If the Orks all plough forwards to try and cover the whole long table edge then only a fraction of there army will be able to engage you, and your Outflankers and Deepstrikes come on behind them. - The same goes for Tyranids.

I would certainly never deny the power of DE or Eldar shooting - the sheer amount of Dark Lances that Dark Eldar can pack into a list can be more than frightening. Again, like the Tau, my choice of Ninjaing depends on the turn roll - if I win I will go first against Eldar and Dark Eldar and deploy normally - why? Because I can blow them away early, in Dark Eldars case I can take down the raiders before they get off there basline and get the skimmer saves, in Eldars case I can blow away vehicles and seer councils before the Skimmer saves and Fortunes make touching them virtually imposible. If they win the first turn roll however, and make me go second - Ill play Ninja - and avoid the seer councils and Dark Lance spam that could cripple me before I fire a shot - Its that simple.

With the sort of tactics you play (and dont get me wrong, im not knocking them, they do work and I have used them many times myself) - You are taking minimal troops, using screens and relying alot of the time on utterly destroying your opponent, Ninja Tau is not trying to destroy the opponent, its trying to disrupt and confuse him and win the game through the objectives of the mission. And a good ninja list can viably do this, a bad one can't. Just as in a good list will utilise your tactics to a full effect and a bad one cant.

Anonymous said...

I agree with you completely on the Stealths and Skyrays - I dislike both units intently, as they are not points effcient and both take a valuable HS/E slot that is much better filled with Suits or Hammerheads (another one I will never understand is people that use Sniper Drones). On the Fire Knives I dont really agree, dont get me wrong, its a great build which brings alot to your type of list, but other types of list utilise different profiles.

On the Killpoints issue, I say the Hammerheads and Broadsides are more survivable because you control where (and to an extent when) they enter the table. Alot of the time you can bring them on in positions where they are only facing a fraction of your opponents army, and are out of effective range for the rest of it. - If you are in a situation where you think they wont be able to bring them on - then dont. Bring on another unit that can gain a Killpoint. Enemy tank on the flank that has not moved? - Bring on Kroot, 60 attacks autohitting is 10 glancing hits minimum - dead tank. Trade Kill Points for Kill Points until your main force arrives - the key is flexibility and bringing on the units that suit the situation best.

What can a Ninja Hybrid list do that another Hybrid cant? Lots - for the pure and simple reason that it van e played and varied depending on the opponent, tactics and mission - its all about the flexibility a 15 point piece of wargear gives you. - Pure and simple its a reserve based army.

As for my more of a challenge comment, yes it is - but not because its harder to win with, but because it requires me to think and play each and every battle in a different way - which I find fun :) - The Tau list you present is equally good, but I found myself using the same tactics and approach virtually every battle, and found myself growing bored - so yes, NT is a challenge, but its a good one (as far as I am concerned).

What a NT list does, a normal list cant do - yes it does sacrifice early fire power and initative, but not at the cost of effectiveness and board control - it just reacts and fights in a very different way. - I am not for one second trying to state that it is better than any other Tau build, but I do beleive that played by someone that understands the tactics and builds a list correctly (and pays attention to the pregame) that it is just as viable.

I wont convince you of that I am sure, as you have already made up your mind - but I did want to point out that your opinions on the issue are fairly subjective, as they rely on the person playing NT to have no idea what he is doing, or to stick rigidly to one aspect of the tactic. - However a good NT commander does not, and will not do his, but instead takes advantage of the tactical versatility the list offers and plays the game that best suits his advantage.

Kirby said...

There are some points you are missing. I don't care what the unit is, if it's alone it can be reduced to a pile of useless rubble. You point out that you can give a Kroot bodyguard and Drones to your commander (first off drones means you're diverting from the Hybrid style as it's taking points away from guns) which makes the unit far, far harder to hide. Whilst against Tau it does benefit in the ability to GtG against the Piranhas you're still going tobe hit by the rest of the army. Against other Fast Moving tanks? They generally take anti-infantry like flamers or blasts. Bye bye Kroot. Bringing on single units of Kroot/Broadsides/Hammerheads or whatever is going to leave them open to getting their butts kicked. By T2 (again since you quite often play the Ninja Tau style as going 2nd) 90% of armies should be able to cover the whole board. Deployments like DoW can limit this but armmies like Orks and Tyranids which you said can't reach you or will be strung out? No. See this picture:

That's without turbo-boosting and assuming 3" run for the Kanz every turn. They are roughly 18-20" away from the corners, the army can support itself and you've only got your HQ on the table + if you give it a bodyguard. It can be handled and you have given board control completely to your opponent. How about a faster army like Eldar/DE or IG/SM? A footslogging SW or Tyranid list may be sitting around where the Kanz are but because of their charge ranges they will still be able to get to you. Yes this is obviously ignoring terrain but the fundamental principle is the same, if you give your opponent 2 turns to move unmolested, he will control the board, he will neutralise your commander if he wishes (assuming average dice) and he won't let you refuse flank.

Again I'll give Ninja Tau the improved ability to reserves denial even though you're saccing 2 units for it, that's fine. But once you start changing wargear and equipment (like Drones and Suits) the Hybrid Tau list as it plays when it doesn't reserve becomes less effective and is not made up for in the scheme of things by the minor bit of flexibility.

I agree Hybrid Tau can get very boring unles you play completely different list styles as opponents and since most armies best style is some form of mech or hybrid, you generally play the same a lot. If I get bored I use another army rather than make a less effective army. If I'm playing for fun, ya why not. But in a tournament setting or training for a tournament, nope.

Kirby said...

Picture didn't show in reply so it's at the bottom of the post above.

Anonymous said...

Not really no - like I say, the NT is essentially a Hybrid list, but it is a list that's been constructed with Ninja in mind - therefore the suit configurations and units do vary from a straight out and out hybrid list. In the point of the Commander you are paying for 2 Shield Drones, but the cost of the Drones is ofset by the minimal weapons load out - You are not making this guy a killing machine, thats not his role in the list - he is purely the relay carrier and his job is to survive, not carry the fight. - The Drones help him do this, so in those terms they are extremly points efficient - if you deploy normally for a straight out fight I normally attach him to the Broadsides giving them an extra 2 shield Drones and a 3 wound model to take there hits. A relay Commander normally runs in at just over 100 points - For your list it may well be an ineffcient use of points, for a NT list it isnt.

In the case of the Orks you picture above, correct me if I am wrong but we are talking about 6 Kanz, 2 Battle Wagons, 3 Deth Koptaz, 2 units of bikes and 4 Warbuggies?

Well first off - if given the chance of a first turn against that list I would take it, and deploy normally (although Nob Bikers would make me think twice) - It does not have much in the way of "Dakka" and going first would give you two guarunteed turns of fire before the Orks hit your screens and as most of that list is AV10, thats an attractive prospect. The only unit that could possibly reach you in the first turn is the Kopta's - and with careful placement and screening they would not get a chance to do much.

But thats not want you want to hear, you want to hear how that list would Rape Ninja Tau - So what would I do if I had 2nd turn or opted to play Ninja from the outset?

First off, as you yourself point out, you have not figured terrain into the equation. And Terrain is an important one here. For example, is there a ruin in my deployment zone? - If so, I could deploy My commander on the upper level (possibly with a Kroot Guard) and that rules out the Bikes/buggies. - So the most worrying initial unit to the Commander is again the Kopta's. Those Koptas May well have to face one turn of fire before the can assualt the Commander (and maybe a unit if you have place him with one) - If not they will face 2 Dangerous Terrain tests (The move into the ruins and the assualt move) - And according to RAW can only actually assualt if they can be placed on the ruins. Even if they do assualt unless equipped with Buzz Saws they might well not get through the commanders armour, in which case he is locked in combat.

Or maybe I could place (again dependent on terrain) the Commander in one diagonal corner of the board and the broadides on the other (Both units hopefully inside or near terrain) - The Kopta's have a choice - the Commander or the Broadsides, and face the same challenges as above. - The rest of the Army then has to choose which side to go for in support, split into two, or send out several key units in support while calling a general advance with the others.

Anonymous said...

In the mean time as turns roll on he is going to be forced to spread his forces more and more, as Tau Units appaer behind his lines, Kroot assualt into vulnerable units on the flanks etc etc - He can either move his whole force cohesively or send units off on damage limitation missions - either way you can cause him to split his control of the board, or limit his ability to deal with your incoming forces - he cant be everywhere at once and he more importantly - he is playing reactively.

But lets assume the Commander does bite the dust in the 1st/2nd turn of the game, and that you have been unable to keep him alive.

Have you lost automatically? No, you have just lost your control over your reserves and are rolling normally for there entrance - If you roll really badly (Most rolls 1-3) then thats fine, your troops have stayed off the table - as you have nothing on the table anyway thats no loss. If you roll really well - Lots of rolls 4-6, than thats fine too - your army has come on as one focused wave, everything can move and fire and you are bringing them on in the best location for you. - Bizzarely the killer is avearge rolls, as on a 4 plus it equates to 50% of your force hitting the table. But again, thats not insta lose - you still control where they come on and how, and it may well draw him down on you, but in the following turns the reserve rolls move more and more into your favour. Losing the Commander is unfortunate (and it does happen), but its not an instant lose - its just a change of plan. - You have a list that is built and designed to be tacticaly flexible.

Like I say, if you are playing someone that does not understand the true potential of the list, who always plays the same way (hold off for 5 turns then move in) no matter what opponent he is playing or opportunities present themselves then yes, some of your points do hold water. But then the same applies to any list - not matter what tactics you use there are people who will play the list badly and not realise the full potential of there army, for example, as soon as I disagreed with you, you were quick to state/imply that it was because I was playing your tatics badly. From the way you talk about Ninja Tau, and from the way you have described the unit load outs and from the way you have described the play style, I would suggest that you have seen it played - but badly, and that has coloured your opinions.

I find a good Ninja list to be supremely versatile, I dont use it as a Ninja List every game, I use it as a Ninja List when its to my advantage to do so, and when going Ninja gives me the better chance of victory. In tournaments I find it a great advantage because you never know what opponent you will be facing next - and I like the ability o take the same list to a tourney and play it as several different armies. You see it as a less effective army, I see it as an army thats just as effective as yours, but played in a different way.

Kirby said...

*sighs* we can give black & white examples back and forth all day but you're still missing a point here.

There are contradictions in your argument. You say you can play as normal hybrid tau if you wish but then you start changing layouts which means your army is becoming weaker. Whether it's shield drones on Commander, TL-MP or Suits or whatever, the army becomes less efficient with changes like that (which is what you are alluding to).

And by splitting your army against fast/mech'd armies you're not forcing them to split your army. You put a commander and broadsides in opposite corners against that Ork list? Okay, Warboss or Wazdakka zooms to one of them and beats them in combat. You're again missing the point that Ninja Tau does not give you board control, it gives board control to the enemy. Ninja Tau is not like Eldar/DE reserving or 2nd turn Pods/Spores who either have the ability to move to a large portion of the board or be placed pretty much anywhere. You move on at a max of 12" barring Piranhas.

I don't care what's in your army, or how you play it, if you play against a fast army (which are most of them these days) and go second to Ninja Tau you are giving up the initiative and board control and they can get to you where you come on.

If you want to play Ninja tau for a change of pace or a less competitive Tau army, go for it. But don't claim it's up there in efficiency terms with Hybrid Tau or as competitive in a tournament setting.

Anonymous said...

Well having played it in tournament settings I can confirm it is indeed competitive :) - The build is different to a straight hybrid army yes, because its not a straight Hybrid army - Its a hybrid ninja army if you like. The build is different and the unit composition is slightly different, but tactically it can be played the same way if you require because all the key units are present. Is it as effcient in this role as a straight hybrid army? No - but it also offers opportunities and efficiencies that are not available to a straight hybrid force - and is just as balanced if in a different way. - For you tactics shield drones on the commander is less efficient, for mine it is extremly efficient - because my army is constructed to work on dual levels - The Commander and his Drones have a role in the Ninja deployment, part deployment, and in normal deployment.

You have set layouts that you consider the most efficient from a hybrid Tau point of view, but it does not mean you are not playing a Hybrid list if you dont follow those layouts completly, it just means you are playing with different units and ideas - its still essentially a hybrid list even if in your opinion its a less effcient one.

Im not trying to play your list, im playing my own list and im using differnt tactics in some battles, and similar tactics in others - but for the purpose behind my list it is every bit as effcient in its own way :)

And yes - in the case you describe above your opponent is splitting his army - Wazdakka whizzes towards one (and im presuming he will go with a unit, because he wont reach them in one turn and is not looking to be ID by rail heads) and your opponent has split his army. - Because he is on the other side of the table, if you then start bringing your army on the otherside of the table Waz has 72" to travel to get back into the action - At least 2 turns of travel at maximum boost. Got another unit to bring on? Bring it on behind him where he just boosted from. - now he has 2 turns to boost back. - And none of that takes into account terrain he has to move around, he can drive through it if he wants, and assualt through it - but then we are making dangerous terrain tests and loosing wounds.

Fast Armies are mobile, and dangerous, but they cant be every where at once. And when your army starts appearing they will be loosing units and taking casulties. Vehicles will be stunned or imobilised, Kroot will tie up key units in combat. While your not on the table he controls it, the moment you start arriving all bets are off.

Anonymous said...

However, we are veering way off track, my intention has never been to question or criticise the tactics you use, or to piss you off. Simply put, you made a list of comments that you claimed debunked the NT build, I was forwaded the link by a friend and decided to put forward the alternative case. The comments you made were not particualy representative of the build, or the true nature of the tactic, but focused on just one part of it without giving any acknowledgemt to the fact that it is a dual role tactic, that against certain opponents and lists can be very effective - and can be played in far more than one way.

We could argue about efficiency allday, but I think we can both acknowledge that there is far more to the tactic than you initially acknowleged. It is not the one trick pony that many people try to represent, that is only once facet of its use.

There is more than one way to skin a cat, and personally I find the versatility of NT best suits my playstyle - in whatever form I decide to play my list, in efficency terms I find it highly efficient when used by someone who understands the tactic and the construction of a list.

I am not saying my list is better than yours, or that NT is more competitive and efficient, all I am saying is that its a different list, and when played by someone who understands it, and indeed when and how to use it, it is a valid and competitive tactic.

On the plus side, however much we disagree we do agree on some things! For example the usefulness of Sky Rays, Fire Warriors, and (although neither of us have mentioned them so far) - Ethereals!

Kirby said...

Come to Australia and we shall settle this real manly like! The missus can make us cupcakes with little hearts on them :).

And Ethereal armies are...awesome!

Anonymous said...

Likewise if you are ever in old blighty! - However I shall serve scones, with jam :)

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