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Friday, July 30, 2010

Email in: List for a doubles tourney, Chaos/Blood Angels


"Hi Kirby,

I've only recently started following your blog, but it's been an awesome resource for me when it comes to strategy and list construction. Thanks for this!

So anyways, a friend of mine and I are gearing up for a mini doubles tournament at our local gaming store this weekend, at which we'll be playing Chaos (him) and Blood Angels (myself). Tournament rules are 'Ard Boyz style (no comp, no painting). Our biggest competitors (or so we believe) are expected to be a team of Imperial Guard (Conscripts around Leman Russes + Plas/Melta Vets in Chimeras) and Space Wolves (mechanized, Rune priests for anti-psyker). Other opponents may include more Tyranids, SW (at least two or three others), a couple Vanilla marine players, and a team of Black Templars and Eldar. I

My friend is planning to run a mostly, if not entirely, Slaaneshi list of lash spam with Blastmaster squads and a Vindicator or two. This is what he has so far:

2x Daemon Prince with Wings, Mark of Slaanesh and Lash of Torment
2x 5 Noise Marines with Blastmaster
Vindicator with Daemonic Possession

Total: 775

He was first considering adding a second possessed Vindicator and a possessed Predator (AutoLas), but is considering other options, including a CSM Squad, Plague Marines, Oblits, or a mix of any of the three. I suggested the extra troops for holding objectives just in case, but they may or may not be needed. The opinions/suggestions of you and/or anyone else with the blog on his list would also be greatly appreciated.

As he is planning to provide shooting support, I'm probably going to be the assault support and objective taker (unless I go with the mechanized option listed below). Several options I am considering, with lists included, are:

Mechanized:

HQ
Librarian with Shield of Sanguinius and Might of Heroes
T
2x Assault Squad
5 Marines: Flamer
Razorback with Lascannon and TL Plasma Gun

Assault Squad
5 Marines: Meltagun
Razorback with Lascannon and TL Plasma Gun

FA
2x Baal Predator with Heavy Bolter sponsons

HS
Dreadnought with 2 TL Autocannons

Total: 995

Thoughts: Might on the Libby is questionable, but provides a little more kick in assault that could be needed. Other options worth considering instead are Blood Lance and Sanguine Sword, and both are still on the table. If my friend runs the second Vindi and the Predator, that gives us 5 AV13 tanks on the table. This could be an awesome force to reckon with, but the size of our scoring units still really concerns me. Despite the weakness in the melee and taking/holding objectives, we probably stand a pretty good chance of tabling our opponents with consistency. My friend actually likes this list the most, rightfully so, it also gives his tanks a much better chance to survive. I'm not sold, but it's definitely not bad.

Descent of Angels:

HQ
Librarian with Shield of Sanguinius and Blood Lance, Jump Pack
T
2x Assault Squad
10 Marines: 2 Meltaguns, PFist
E
2x Sanguinary Priest with Jump Pack
FA
Vanguard Veterans with Jump Packs, Power Fist

Total: 920

Thoughts: Unfinished, I could use some suggestions on how to fill up my points. My original plan was to give each priest a Power Weapon and further kit out the Vanguard Vets (Power Weapons, Storm Shields, or some smaller combination of the two, but I'd like to find a way to squeeze more Assault Marines in instead. This list has more bodies, but I'm not entirely sure it's more effective than the mech list as far as working with my allies list goes. Deepstriking everything leaves my friend's army to mercy of our opponents. If we get first turn (and they don't steal the initiative), it shouldn't be a huge problem. If we don't get first turn or steal, then he has to deal with two of them. That's more problematic, and would probably force me to have to forgo deepstriking for standard deployment. This isn't the worst thing that could happen, but it does leave my jumpers much more vulnerable to ranged threats.

Other Possibilities

Though expensive, one of the other lists I was playing around with was mechanized with some variation in the armor. Points permitting, I was going to go with an Assault Squad mounted in a Land Raider Crusader, another Assault Squad mounted in a Razorback, and hopefully a Predator (Baal or Autolas) and a Dreadnought (2x TLAC). Not sure if it will work well, let alone is feasible points-wise, but given that LRs are always difficult to deal with in small games I figured it was potentially worth it.

Anyways, your thoughts and suggestions would be greatly appreciated on all of this. If you know a better list concept to work with my friend's list (or even a better concept for the two of us working in tangent), definitely roll with it. I think my friend is pretty much as flexible with the army concept as mine, however he does usually run Slaanesh/Nurgle.

Thanks in advance for any help!

Regards,
Dave"

Hey Dave. Glad you've enjoyed the blog for your short time so far! Double tournaments are their own hairy pit of interesting because rather than go for balanced you try to go for the most ridiculus combo you can get which is going to allow you to deal with the most possible army lists out there. For Blood Angels and anyone, that's FNP/FC bubbles and CSM will find this very enjoyable on their normal Marines/Zerkers but are still pretty inefficient. Making one army shooting and one army assault isn't a good idea either, keep the themes in line otherwise it's like splitting your army in half in a normal enviornment. You generally also want to max out certain choices you normally couldn't. With that in mind let's see what we can do with BA/CSM. I'll try to keep to the CSM theme of Slannesh but think CSM w/Mark of Khorne would rock when they've got FNP/FC bubbles.

First off let's go with shooting backed up by MEQs with 3+/FNP. Why? Because we can basically get 9+ fire support options with Dreads/Preds/Oblits. Sounds good. Chaos doesn't have so good Elites/FA but they do get Dreads so we'll support the army with them in there as well with some RBacks perhaps from the BA and otherwise pewpew foot Troops which can hop into Rhinos. Let's see what we can get for 1000 each.

BA: Let's start with 3 Rifledreads and 2 Baal Preds. Dreads over ACLC Preds because there's going to be a lot of things blocking sponsons and 4 TL'd S7 shots is just awesome. Baals provide us with some mobile AV13 and extra dakka. Without sponsons we've been set back 590 points. We want a Lib as well for psychic defense and Shield of Sanguine is a great first pick. Let's go with Blood Lance or Sword for our secondary with Sword being more likely since we aren't dropping. 310 pts left. We need 2 priests which will set us back 100 leaving us with only 210 for our troops, hmm. Well that's not good so let's drop a Dread giving us 330 pts. This is just enough points for 2x 5x ASM w/meltagun & RBack w/lasplas. Lovely. Now let's see what to do with with the CSM.

Again we want some long-ranged firepower backed up by CSM bodies with 2 Sorcs w/lash for giggles. 2x sets us back 250. We've gone for non-DP here because all we want to do with lash is throw people backwards and off objectives rather than the silly stuff people do to bring units forward, clump, etc. 110 pts for a Dread w/TL-AC is pretty good so we'll prob grab 2 Dreads as well but need to be careful about points. Let's skip to HSupport. 2x ACLC Preds drops us back a fruther 130 pts each and 2x Oblits is 150 leaving us with 120 points. Nope, we'll get rid of the Oblits so we've got 270 for our Troops. This is going to be tight for points so let's get rid of a Sorc. A small 5 man squad w/PG in a Rhino w/Havoc Laucnher and a large squad to benefit from the FNP/FC funsies seems like the best here. With the small squad out of the way we've got 255 left. That's 17 naked CSM but I'm going to break the theme here and add in a mark of khorne (that's T4/3+/FNP/FC/3A+ charging). We'll also drop in another Autocannon and add an Aspiring Champ w/PWeapon leaving us enough points for 12 CSM + the Champ.

So let's look at what we have:

BA:
Libby w/Shield & Sword
2x Priest
2x5xASM w/meltagun w/LasPlas
2x Baal
2x RifleDread

CSM:
Sorc w/Lash
2x Dread w/TLAC
5xCSM w/PGun w/Rhino w/Havoc Launcher
13x CSM w/AC, MoK, Champ w/PWeapon
2x ACLC Pred

Bit meh alone but put them together and that's a decent amount of S7+ and FNP bodies. CSM squad is used as a bubble wrap whilst lash/baals push back as much as possible whilst plugging away with your ranged firepower. Once the enemy gets close you can assault with the CSM blob supported by Libby, Sorc & Priest for a pretty decent combat punch. Not the best by all means and shows the issue with doubles tournaments in having to put so many points into HQ and Troops but rather than have two seperate lists is trying to build one cohesive whole.

So that felt unusual, thoughts Dave and hisbuddy? Anyone else? Don't do doubles play much ^^.

2 pinkments:

Borkai said...

Team events open up the possibility of abusing the FOC as Kirdy has mentioned. Particularly 6 slots of heavy, 6 slots of elite but others too such as fast may be cool. CSM fast slot is pretty weak, so I agree that the shooty side should be focused on. I suggest the use of 5 man CSM termi squads with reaper autocannons, they are twin linked and would combine beatuifully with the sang priest (if they are allowing that for the event). The CSM termis are slow, but cheap comparitively and will give you a solid core to counter charge or just charge something that gets too close to your lines and hasn't been kept at bay by firepower or lash. Also the CSM termis have plenty of combi options and cost a base of 30pts each. I would only consider the mark options for them for bigger squads if the sang bubbles are workng for the tournie format ( a drawback of larger squads is the limit of only one heavy weapon). But at 115 points you can have a reaper autocannon on 2+/5+infantry with power weapons, which gives you similar firepower but a different dynamic compared to a dreadnought (which may be useful as described above with FNP).

Chumbalaya said...

Riflemen and Oblits together would be a fun combo. PM in Rhinos and RAS in Razors would be fine for Troops.

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