(pic from Games Workshop; new plastic Daemon Prince kit!)
"Tyler here, alright Kirby it's hammer time. With the decision to use the Chaos codex I know I'm starting a step behind your typical 5th ed. codex. I'm fine with that since the BA cannot take a Daemon Prince and it's pretty large draw to play the army for me. So this list I built with the idea of just making it a solid contender without relying on a gimp power like lash to save me. I know you suggested Oblits in the last list, but I can change that if we end up agreeing they are superior to havocs.
It actually took me a great deal of time to come to this build. It feels pretty solid with ranged threats, strong core and definite CC element. But, then again I could be completely wrong since I haven't built the list yet. Your thoughts?
2000 Chaos
HQ:
Daemon Princex2
Mark of N.
Warptime
Wings
Elites:
Chaos Dreadx3
Multimelta
Heavy Flamer
Extra Armor
Troops:
CSM#8x3
Melta
Champ w/PF and Combi-Melta
Rhino
CSM#5x2
Melta
Rhino
Fast Attack:
None
Heavy Support:
Havocs#5x3
4x Missiles"
Solid as far as Chaos goes but we can streamline it a bit. CSM Squads aren't really optimal. Whilst you're adding in 5 Rhino chassis, you've only adding 5 meltaguns. The problem with Havocs comes down to them not being able to split up like Marine/BA Dev squads or split fire like Long Fangs so you either want them with only a couple of Missiles and shooting out of Rhino hatches or you want to go with Oblits/Preds. Personally, I think going a squad of Oblits + 2 AC/LC Preds will help with the lack of general ranged firepower you suffer from and squash the CSM squads into 3 full squads in Rhinos w/Havoc Launchers. You can either go double melta or add in a Heavy Weapon (I'd go with Double melta since CSM are actually some-what decent at combat). Also drop the EA on the Dreads, you've got 3 and it's not needed. Let's see what we get with these changes then points wise. 2x DP, 3x Dread, 3x CSM w/2x melta, PFist, rhino, Havoc, 2x Oblit, 2x AC/LC Pred - 1855 points so room to play with. And here lies the problem with the Chaos book, the Fast Attack section can't really pick up the slack and you're only going to be able to fit in one or two min-sized squads. You can of course drop the PFists from the CSM squad and grab more FA or change your CSM to Plagues, etc. You also have the points to run 7 Oblits (and no Preds) so there can be points minimised or maxed there, etc.
So here's the 1855 point list:
2x DP w/Wings, Warptime, Mark of Nurgle
3x Dread w/MM, Heavy Flamer
3x 10x CSM w/2x meltagun, Champ w/PFist, Rhino w/Havoc Launcher
2x Oblits
2x Pred w/Lascannon sponsons
Totals: 1855 points
2 MCs
8 vehicles
32 infantry
Again some options available Tyler so let's hear what others have to say or what you feel inclined to go with and we'll go from there.
9 pinkments:
You need obliterators. No obliterators, no reliable anti-tank. Autolas, lasboats, and havocs are cute, but don't do the same job, aren't as flexible, and cost much, much more.
Havocs are spiky vanilla devastators, and we all know how good those are.
You always want ten regular marines.
Taking ten gives twice the melta/flamer, and that's what you bring them for.
The emailed list is NOT solid, at all.
It has zero reliable, hard to remove scoring units, very little realistic anti-tank, and three chaos dreads.
Yes, the chaos book is a gimped codex, but there's no reason why you should gimp yourself further while playing it.
Out of curiosity why not just go 3x Auto-Las? I think I'll add in two 5 man rhino squads with a melta to act as fire ships/ Same points as a bike squad and resilient to anti-infantry fire.
So a quick rundown
2xDP-MON, Wings, Warptime
3xDreads- Multimelta, heavy flamer,
3xCSM#9-1x Melta, Champ w/PW, Combi Melta, Rhino w/Havoc
2xCSM#5-1x Melta, Rhino
3x Auto-las Predators
Looks Pretty flexible to me and I like it a great deal more in this variation. The auto-las are a good call.
What do others think?
@VT2- I understand the oblits are very good for fixing a great deal of the Chaos codex problems. But, they are expensive and can still only fire at three targets and turn. Plus due to their cost my army which is already a very elite style army becomes smaller as well. This makes my opponents' target priority very easy in my opinion.
I'd still want Oblits. Oblits aren't the be all and end all but they keep firing until they are dead whilst a shaken result on the Preds stops them. I'm not a huge fan of 3x3 Oblits because of the expense you pay for them but they are excellent choices and rather go for 1-2 squads backed up by Preds.
WIth your 2nd list I'd still go for the 10 CSM, drop one of the extra Rhino squads to grab 2x Oblits and upgrade the champs to PFists (maybe drop the combis as well or replace them with flamers). The Oblits do give you some flexibility and the single melta 5 man CSM squads don't really provide much outside of a distraction.
Hmm, yeah after going through game scenarios and rolling some dice I'll drop the two 5 man squads and take up the 7 oblits option (Great conversion opportunities here.)
So that puts the list at:
2xDP-MoN, Wings, Warptime
3x Dreads-Extra armor, HF, MM
3x CSM#10-2x Melta,PF, IoC, Rhino
1x Oblits#3
2x Oblits#2
Looks like a pretty solid final version to me. But, then again I thought that the other two times. I think extra armor may actually have a place on a chaos dread since they have the MM and need to keep moving forward. It's either those or havoc launchers on the rhinos.
Competitive chaos combines some of the following elements.
Berserkers.
Plague marines in rhinos.
Twin lash sorcerers/twin warptime winged princes.
Suicidal terminators.
Obliterators/ land raiders for the berserkers.
If choices are tight, you add tiny squads of raptors or bikes for more melta/flamer.
If points are really, really tight, you downgrade some plague marines into dual-special chaos marines.
Truly horrible units, that should not be taken: dreads, possessed, spawn, noise marines, havocs.
Dreads & Havocs are fine. Dreads are the exact same as SM Dreads just mildly cheaper and better in combat and 1/3 of the time they either shoot more or run forward more. All good if you play them right. Havocs have access to multiple special weapons so when you play 3xChosen, 6xCSM you have another 3 sets of Rhinos which can take special weapons. That's 12 Rhinos with more than 18+ specials and Havoc Launchers.
I'd drop the EA on Dreads and plop on the Havoc Launchers Tyler, otherwise solid.
Thanks for the help guys. I'll play test the version you helped me with Kirby and I'll try the more stereotypical list that VT2 suggests and see which performs better for me.
Let us know how it goes.
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