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Tuesday, October 12, 2010

GWvsJohn talks Dark Eldar: Troops




The Dark Eldar are coming/here and GWvsJohn is going all in. I couldn't get excited to collect and play BA or Vanilla Marines and for a long time I couldn't figure out why. Then it hit me. I'm a villain at heart. Darth Vader, the Nazgul, FOX-HOUND, I always find myself more drawn to the bad guys. They're just cooler. In 40k, this should mean Chaos Space Marines, but they suck. Nids, Orks, Crons? Too mindless. I want cunning, evil bad guys. I've always found the Dark Eldar interesting, but they've been a back shelf army for so long. Not anymore. They're back and I'm on the bandwagon. Since this is a new army for me and a new codex in general, I'm going to go through it step by step and post my thoughts, building a cohesive picture of the army, how it plays and prospective lists. When better 40k minds do the same (there are many, but Stelek and Kirby are my personal faves), I reserve the right to change my mind. We'll start with Troops, since they're the basis of any army and needed for victory in 2/3 of missions. This post will analyze the two basic troops choices and the two dedicated transports.


Kabalite Warriors
The "standard" Dark Eldar troop. What do we get? BS4 and 4+ poison rapid fire gun, so good anti-infantry regardless of toughness. I5, a very underrated stat in CC. T3, 5+ so we fear flamers of any sort (except silly hand flamers). One special and one heavy/10, pretty standard. Overall, I think you get a lot for what they cost, just avoid flamers. I see 3 ways to run them:

5 man, special, transport. If it's a Venom you get the cheapest scoring possible with ok anti-troop. If it's a Raider you get the DE version of Razorspam. Open-topped means they can fire the special fairly often.
10 man, special, heavy, Raider. A scoring unit with duality. I think it will see a lot of action in a variety of DE lists.
20 man, 2 Dark lances. Over 200 for 2 Dark Lances? I'm not impressed. 20 guardsmen aren't that hard to kill. Still, I've seen worse objective campers.

Now the question of what weapons. Special is easy I think. I'll take an 18" Lance over a 12" small blast any day. The Blaster gives the unit duality, the Shredder gives it nothing. Heavy is more difficult. For foot, Lance, obvs. For the 10 man, it depends on your expectations I think. If you expect the Raider to stay alive for a while, the Cannon increases the anti-troop output and range, keeping duality with the Raider's Lance. If you expect the Raider to die, the Dark Lance makes the survivors a threat. Personally, I'm going Lance despite the extra cost. Forcing a few extra saves doesn't have anywhere near the potential a s8 Lance does.

Finally, is the Sybarite worth it? I'm torn. 3-4 I5 agonizer attacks is pretty good, and without any special morale rules, Warriors are very vulnerable in CC (ie when they break, they break for good). +1Ld is very, very good as well. I'd really like a haywire grenade option as the squad gets pwned by Walkers. The armor option is worthless, the grenade option is overpriced and the Blast Pistol is interesting but probably not a great buy. Overall, I think he's worth it, but if points are tight, those 30 can be dropped.



Wyches
The CC choice, good to see these girls in Troops, gives the army more flavor. 1 extra point gives you +1A (double ccw), +1I (although the jump from 4 to 5 is much more significant than the jump from 5 to 6), Combat Drugs, 4++ in CC, Haywire grenade option and a bunch of shitty "special" CCW. You lose a point of save (no big deal, flamers kill you both) and all shooting. The agonizer Hekatrix is mandatory, as is the assault/defense grenade option (cheaper for the better CC troop, oddly). Haywires I'm torn on. Without them, the unit is Dread-lock bait, but they're kinda pricey. I'd lean toward yes for an assault unit, but no for a defensive unit. Wyches have a place in most lists I think as an anti-super unit (think Vanguard in more revealing armor). They make a great escort for your HQ (I can easily see an Archon fitting here), so 9-10 in a Raider or 5-15 out of a portal are a nice unit.

Which to choose? For fluff and models, I think it's the Warriors hands down. Rules-wise, I think they both have their place. Warriors put out decent shooting for their cost and will probably be low-priority, making them good to score while Wyches can tie up units like TH/SS Termies, Sang Guard and the like which can tear through the rest of your army. I like a list that has both. Dark Eldar troops are pretty good and fragile, so I think most lists will bring more than 2 and both Warriors and Wyches have a place.

Now transports:

Raider
Took a slight points increase and all it gained was the option to become more expensive. Weapons, keep the Dark Lance. Other upgrades? Flicker is mandatory. I like the Night Shields for your expensive, CC Raiders (Archons, Incubi). They should be hiding behind Warrior/Wrack/Wych Raiders for a 4+ and that extra 6" can make a big difference when you're armor 10 open topped. None of the other upgrades jump out at me. So 55 to 70 and a perma-5++? I kinda like it. I doubt you'll see so many 10+ Raider lists, but 6 might be a common number.






Venom
Only 5 capacity, but comes with a Flickerfield standard. I don't see any CC unit that hits hard enough at 5 men to make this a Harlie/Incubi delivery vehicle. The best (and probably only) use is as a blast-car for a 5 man Trueborn squad. The 2nd splinter cannon is a +/- upgrade in my opinion. Gives the Venom/Blaster-born unit duality, but is an easy drop if the points are tight.

Overall, I'm happy so far. The Dark Eldar take the whole fragile but deadly thing to an extreme. Their Troops have a decent shooty options and a decent CC option, something few lists have. Their transports are a little on the pricey end (or, more accurately, Rhinos/Razorbacks/Chimerae are a little on the cheap end), but they put out a lot of firepower and you control the flow of the game with their speed. I can see a lot of lists using all 6 troop slot, which is refreshing. I would leave to any comments on my opinions and fresh opinions out there. It's going to take a while to fully digest the book, this is just my first try.

Comments (17)

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I'd of put Wracks and Hellionsin here as well as their primary use will be when they are Troops which gives DE a lot of Troop flexibilty. That being said after some discussion with others I think a combination of Wracks/Wyches will be the assault Troop units of choice with Haemonculi handing out FNP (free pain tokens) whilst Warriors are much more of a midfield/backfield unit which lol @ MCs (very important aspect of DE army), stay mobile and pump out some lances. I don't think the Sybarite is worth it though. Ya the extra Ld and combat potential is nice but since I want these guys in backfield/midfield, not so much I believe.

Venoms I agree with completely, so-so but awesome for Trueborns. 4x Blasters? yes pls
1 reply · active 756 weeks ago
I agree. I have a feeling that most initial builds are going to have Hellions (or possibly the Wracks) as the Troops choices. They give you mobility that you cannot take away, while being a potentially deadly unit. That's what this codex seems to be centered around: Killing units as fast as possible before getting dragged down.

Its like getting smashed in the face with a sledgehammer full force, but the handle breaks in the process. Your face is messed up hardcore at the very least, more likely you're dead or dying, but at least you prevented the hammer from doing anymore damage.

I think that these are going to entirely depend on the theme of your army, as from what I've seen, there is going to be a great many. But everything in the codex has the ability to ravage the opponent if equipped properly. Makes me happy sauce. :)
Geez, rush much? The next post with be Haemonculi, Wracks, the Baron and Hellions. Can't do it all in one post :)

Yeah, I'm so-so on the Sybarite. Worse ways to spend points I'd say. Your thoughts on the Lance/Cannon option?
2 replies · active 756 weeks ago
Sure you can :P. I'm actually leaning towards Cannon/Blaster for 10 men in Raiders. On foot I'd go with lance but in a Raider sicne you want to continue moving the Cannon can still fire and the Blaster can drop in shots when you get close and 36" range poison is nice. At the same time, flickerfields get you that 5++ so you don't have to move and can fire 2 DLs (at seperate targets)... depends what your army needs I guess. Backfield anti-tank and static? or Mobile anti-infantry + some anti-tank?
Always go cannon/blaster for 10 man warriors.
Mobility is crucical.

Lances (non-melta ones) are now solely on raiders/ravagers.

I love all the dakka this army can put out.
Am excited about DE too, Speed is the core of my favorite Warhams tactics, so yes I will be starting DE when I can :3

I think both choices will see use in balance, the Wyches have never really been able to drag units down on their own, more acting as a anvil with a steady Agonizer to even up Combat Res until the heavy hitters come in and finish. The special weapons, if they were 1/3 i would like them more but as 1/5? Bleh.

Plus, before you shrug off Wyches, they can get to Str 5 with a lucky Drug roll and 2 Pain tokens, it might be a little too early to say but due to so many possibilities to get Str 4+ on your Troops with the Strength Through Pain System, I am thinking at least 2 Haemonculus will be seen in most lists :)
Haemonculus with shattershard is almost a definate in any list, thing is plain nasty.
Thanks for the article GWvsJohn, it's interesting to read other people's opinions on the new DE. I too consider the transports pricey in comparsion to chimeras/rhinos/razorbacks.

At present I see the DE codex to be very synergistic. Nothing seems to stand out as being truly amazing in it's own right, the question is whether the sum of the parts will be sufficient against the current "top tier" lists. Time will tell! Thanks again! xx
2 replies · active 756 weeks ago
I'll tell you now, it will.
You really don't want to know how much firepower can be packed in at 1500 points.
Dark eldar infantry is all mostly sternguard.
You can sorta fight with warriors, scourges, and trueborn, but it's close-range shooting they're good at.

Wyches only do combat now, and most of their options aren't worth it.

The venom is very good, but costy, and nowhere near as well-armed as either chimera or razorbacks.

Interesting when we start seeing 9+ venoms on the field, with dinky squads of trueborn and warriors in them. So much death if you're not in your transport.
1 reply · active 756 weeks ago
Apathyman's avatar

Apathyman · 756 weeks ago

About wyches: the only upgrade I see being really exciting for the points is the shardnet/impaler. Getting into base contact with the sergent/PW guy/multi-attack guy seems important to minimize losses. I'm reluctant to buy them anything else (I hate you, agonizer, you are sooo expensive and don't glance vehicles anymore). Bloodbrides seem more the way to get ultra-elite CC in.
Wracks are going to be great troops to have, Kirby.

FNP with 2 liquifier guns (and pretty affordable)? Close range is a problem for objective camping, though.

I think the haemonculus army is going to be the TMC army, though. A quality list that isn't popular because of the amount of conversion work required to make it look good.
MagicJuggler's avatar

MagicJuggler · 756 weeks ago

Razorflails and Hydra Gauntlets are derp. The Shardnet is handy though if you are going the melee-anvil route, especially since unlike the Ork Grabba stick, it affects all enemy models the Wych is in b2b with. Handy for absorbing attacks from those pesky melee torrent units.

The reason for a cheaper Phantasm Grenade Launcher on the Wyches is because they already get Plasma Grenades. Sliscus seems a must for Wych-intensive lists (or Deepstrike Lists in general; tha he basically gives all your vehices Retrofire jets for *free* is handy). That drug reroll can mean a lot, either for rerolls-to-wound (yay Agonizers/Sliscus's superpoison weapon), or more FNP tokens.

Nearly all the upgrades got reduced in cost. I tended to take Nightshields by default, yet most the options look appealing (except Splinter Pods. Forcing a Raider to move 12"/turn? And it doesn't work on cannons/carbines? Bleh.)
1 reply · active 756 weeks ago
MagicJuggler's avatar

MagicJuggler · 756 weeks ago

Oh, and I mean 6" a turn. Since DE passengers don't get any way to circumvent the transport rules...
Hm, okay, I wondered if someone here in "the know" could whip up a quick 1500p Dark Eldar list containing units they feel is useful in most cases. I'm converting and scratch-building a counts-as Dark Eldar list, and I don't want make 30 warriors and 8 raiders if 15/4 would suffice, for instance.

I don't expect you to have figured it all out yet, but a ballpark guess would be much appreciated.
1 reply · active 755 weeks ago
It depends on what type of army you want. Look at all my BA lists. DE will be exactly like that. You can make very divergent DE lists based just on what HQ you want, what Troops you want, what HS you take, whether or not you're using a WWP, etc. I would imagine 10+ raider armies are gone though. Most armies I've played around with at the 2k level are limiting at 6 raiders backed up by Bombers and Venoms.

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