Kirb your enthusiasm!

WEBSITE HOSTED AT: www.3plusplus.net

"Pink isn't a color. It's a lifestyle." - Chumbalaya
"...generalship should be informing list building." - Sir Biscuit
"I buy models with my excess money" - Valkyrie whilst a waitress leans over him


Monday, November 15, 2010

Armies in 5th: Dark Eldar Part 2: Poison & Darklight Weaponry



An integral part of the new Dark Eldar is how their weaponry operates. Well over 90% of DE weapons fielded in most army lists are either poison based or ‘darklight’ (S8 lance) based. This is very different from the more common Imperium line of weaponry and is different still from Tyranids, Tau, Necrons and Eldar which provides DE with some unique advantages they can exploit with their lists.

Poison is amazingly potent against high toughness armies (i.e. Tyranids, Bikers, TWC, etc.) as it basically negates one of the army’s defenses. Combined with the high strength firepower of Darklight weaponry and you are looking at a lot of wounds generated on high toughness targets compared to other armies. Even against ‘normal’ T4 armies, poison is a sight better than the old S3 splinter rifle and with upgrades like Duke’s poison, splinter racks, increased rate of fire, etc., Dark Eldar poison weaponry has become a very potent anti-infantry force. Like most 5th edition books it seems a significant portion of anti-infantry firepower is almost in-built within any DE army.

Furthermore, the mass of poison can actually be of significant help against true hordes (i.e. Orks) but is relatively useless against mech. Some quick math to show the effectiveness of poison; a Warrior squad with splinter racks will put out ~9 wounds on all units (assuming Blaster/Cannon combo). Marine squads, elite armies and high-toughness, etc. as well as large, horde based units and armies are spitting bricks that the basic DE unit can do so much torrenting (compare a Marine squad firing at a DE Warrior squad will generate ~8 wounds assuming no flamer hits). MCs which cost 150+ pts and suffer 9 wounds from a basic squad? Ouch. And even 30 man Guardsmen squads in cover don’t want to take 13 saves at range. However, whilst weapons like the Splinter Cannons can put out 6 shots each and the overall effectiveness of poison, against multiple large units it isn’t going to cut it and a DE army which relies on 2xSC Venoms and splinter rack Warriors is going to find itself in trouble against true hordes. Whilst DE may be semi-survivable in CC thanks to FNP from Pain, extensive anti-infantry will often need to come from elsewhere (i.e. Liquifiers, Bombers, etc.).

Poison is also pretty useless against Mech. Luckily Darklight weaponry comes in extreme use here. Although Darklight weaponry helps very little against hordes, it is very effective against MC style lists and mech due to its good strength, abundance and lance status. When taken in droves (20+), the rate of fire across multiple units and good strength allows it to render heavy tanks (Av13+) and cheaper but lighter tanks (i.e. Av11) pretty useless. Although Dark Lances in particular are nowhere near as effectively spammable before, the combination of multiple and useful darklight weapons provides the DE with effective anti-mech/MC firepower across their whole army and at multiple ranges. However, due to most squads carrying around poisoned weapons, a DE player may find their darklight weaponry overwhelmed against Mech spam (i.e. 12+ tanks) as their basic guns can’t even glance AV10/11 and the DE therefore rely pretty much solely on their darklight weaponry.

What does all this jibber jabber mean? Basically it is very hard to go extremely wrong when building a DE list. Yes there will be a huge gulf between the good lists and bad lists in terms of firepower and balance but inherently, DE lists will generally have good anti-infantry and anti-tank thanks to their main weapon types; poison and darklight. Although extra effort needs to be expended to ensure both of these areas are covered appropriately (i.e. liquefiers, heat lances, etc.), DE lists already have good foundation blocks in place and the combination of the two weapon types provides most DE lists with a good, balanced array of firepower. This firepower also has the unique advantage of being some of the most effective army wide firepower against high toughness units/armies and has a very reliable core (i.e. Warriors) in terms of damage output since poison ignores toughness. This makes DE the perfect counter to most Hybrid lists in terms of theory match-ups as their mix of darklight and poisoned weaponry gives their weapons perfect targets to shoot at most turns. On the flip side, DE may find success is harder against pure lists (i.e. foot horde or Mech spam) because their army is so inherently based upon duality (which is a good thing, don’t get me wrong). Whilst this won’t translate into a disadvantage for DE when using a good list, poor list building may find DE lists suffering significantly against one army type or another.

Comments (21)

Loading... Logging you in...
  • Logged in as
Alas poor Tyranids, which sit at the 'sweet spot' where ALL of the DE weapons are effective. Fortunately Tyranid weapons essentially return the favor... Tyranid-DE battles are going to be bloody, bloody affairs.
2 replies · active 756 weeks ago
If I remember right DE were always pretty tough on nids for much the same reasons. Looking forward to facing them with marines in bigger battles. So far we have only done small test battles as people get their armies ready.
Ya Tyranids are unhappy with the mass of poison against their MCs but at the same time FNP is that much better for them. What really irks Tyranids is AP2 on the darklight stuff. Poor T-Fex can't cover everyone now ^^. As you said though, Tyranid firepower is pretty deadly against DE as well and Gants really couldn't care less about poison if they get into combat with FNP + auras.

I wouldn't be surprised if more people jump off the "omg Elites are crap for Nids because we always need HG" wagon and we might see some more Venomthropes and individuals actually taking good suppresion fire elsewhere.
Poor lists max out on actual dark lances, or just run wracks in portals, and even that's not entirely poor by old GW standards.
For best effect, you need to balance your splinter/darklight ratios.
So what are the thoughts on an appropriate blend? From my test games, I've come up with the following rules of thumb:

-In an environment where mech armies are both good and popular, at least one dark lance every 100 or so points is almost mandatory.

-Dual-splinter cannon venoms are also a great buy, each one capable of putting 4 wounds on anything with a toughness, prior to saves. Even against Termis, that adds up. My current 1500 pt list brings 4 such venoms, and being able to fairly reliably kill 4 termies in 2 rounds is pretty good. Against hordes, all my other shooting + venoms can typically remove a 30 man squad, for the most part. That usually removes the closest threat. The next couple of rounds involve weakening units, and using assault elements to tie them up and eventually kill them.
2 replies · active less than 1 minute ago
Eh I never like rules of thumb because they can change so drastically between lists. I'd imagine though that a minimum of 10 darklight weapons will be seen at 1500 and I wouldn't be surprised if it was more like 15-20. I've made a pure DL list at 2000 points which has 30ish DL IIRC whilst still having some decent poison ability. With tweaking I'm sure I can take that down to 25 and have a more balanced list.
Have you transports carry your anti-infantry, and use the carried squad to mass blasters/lances, or do the reverse.
So you have a venom with matched cannons, carrying 3-4 trueborn with blasters, or a bunch of wracks and their sarge with a flamer, aboard a lance raider.
I think Lances make Dreads better than Preds. As Dreads and Preds were always comparable, does this mean tourney goers 'should' take Dreads instead?

The Pred gets dropped to AV 12-11, and Deldar can outmanoeuvre well enough to get side shots, whilst Dreads don't lose any AV [that they've paid for!!] and even with the speedy Deldar, side shots make no difference.

Plus the Dread can plod around 6" per turn. Nothing stellar, but quite handy usually and perhaps essential against this high move army....?

+++

Can Deldar bring more Lances than Fangs can ML? I would be surprised if they could....
Though MLs are not a fave, because they are cheap for Wolves, they work well. Plus they can always frag, something the Lances fail on.

Poison makes it a good day to be a Marine. They'll not get the re-roll against you for having s≥t, unless I've missed some -_-
Meanwhile t3 gets flogged and t5+ gets jipped
12 replies · active 755 weeks ago
I think the difference between MLs to Darklight weaponry is the availability in just about every slot. At 1500 pts, the list that is my "standard" at the moment brings 15 Dark Lances which can engage 7 different targets. Some of it is static, but a good chunk (12 I think?) is mobile up to 12". Long Fangs still hold the title of most effective heavy weapons with a T value though (don't believe there are any better or more utilitarian, with the possible exception of Tau suits).

As for poison, the shooting has no S value, so no one has to worry about that. In combat, if the unit has FC (2 pain tokens), then it will have S = T on marines most likely, and will therefore get the reroll.
Drunk_Elephant's avatar

Drunk_Elephant · 756 weeks ago

except that running a unit of wracks with a haemonculus for FNP and FC with 2x liquifiers, should be popular. In that case, the poison attacks are 4+ S4, with re-rolls against marines. Unless I missed something.
Drunk_Elephant's avatar

Drunk_Elephant · 756 weeks ago

sigh... I suck at reading comprehension, and such.
I didn't get it til I saw that wracks are s3.

They are actually a good unit, even without Drunk Phantitos special rules ;)

t4 FNP makes them as tough as Marines, point for point.

18 bs4 bolter shots. 12 hit. 6 wound.
2 dead marines - 30 points.
3 dead wracks - 30 pts

When you add in they wound 75% against t3 and 50% against t4+, you have a good unit.
Plus the Liquidifier.
half the time ignoring Power armour? Ouch. Owwee!
They'll likely have furious charge very early in the game, too, so get re-rolls versus T4 opponents - aka, marines.
You can easily take more than twice as much darklight as wolves pack missiles, but you really shouldn't do that.
Oh, I did not realise they could bring so much. I haven't started making lists.

Good thing to know.
My 2k list to be has 22 darklight weapons. That's with 5-man units of warriors, who then only gets a 'mere' blaster.
So yes, lots and lots =P
I dislike equating blasters and dark lances. After 15 or so test games, the reliability of blasters to be able to deliver the firepower where I want, when I want, has proven to be lower than dark lances (some of which are completely static).
If I could have things my way, all darklight weapons would be assault, but that's not the case.
The strength of the blaster, and what makes it such a good gun, is the ability to mass them in units, and driving those units into range in no more than two turns.

Kinda exactly like sternguard with combi-meltas.
DL as assault would be evil. Pure evil.
It's one of those things that would probably break the game in half.
Unit of Trueborn x10 with 4 Blasters, 2 Splinter Cannons, 3 Shardcarbines, a Dracon w/Venom Blade & pistol, All with Haywire Grenades & Plasma Grenades plus a Haemonculus w/ Hexrifle & Venom Blade & pistol attached.
Two units of those.

Post a new comment

Comments by

Follow us on Facebook!

Related Posts Plugin for WordPress, Blogger...