I saw some questions on this earlier in the Chatbawks so thought I'd address them here. 15 point pistol which has the same profile as a DL but range 6". Six inches I hear people scream! It's the same as an infernous pistol but replaces melta with lance status and no AP1 (which sucks) and there seems to be an excessive amount of dislike for them. Don't really understand why... In comparison to the Infernous pistol it's pretty good if not as good. Lack of AP1 is a thing DE generally just deal with and get lance spam instead. In terms of points it's the same price (15) but has the added cost of needing to buy the Sarge (for now only Imperial Armies don't buy leader upgrades as they are included into the Squad's price). This is annoying but has the added benefit of increased Ld (generally to 9 or 10), more attacks in combat and access to other gear like Agonisers, PGL, etc. All in all it's pretty decent compared to the Infernous pistol, less useful with lack of AP1 and not as good at popping armor when you hit 3" but still a viable option for some squads. Note, some squads.
However, you cannot just hand these guys out willy nilly. This is the same for most upgrades. What blast pistols do is offer some redundancy to certain squads (i.e. Warriors with a Blaster) and duality to other squads (i.e. Wyches). Yes 15 points is expensive and you have to pay for the squad leader upgrade (which again has other benefits) so it's probably not the best bet to take them on every unit you have but the ability for an anti-infantry unit to whack an anti-tank shot into a tank is very valuable. Also being able to operate two anti-tank guns in a 5 man warrior squad (+ Venom) means you can have a bunch of cheap Troops (150) in effective anti-infantry transports much like Space Wolves and Blood Angels have with razorbacks (notice how they operate with two anti-tank weapons as well).
Yes it's expensive and no it's not an auto-include but they can be very useful. They are most useful when there is only a single anti-tank shot available (such as small Warrior squads) or to provide even the bare minimum of anti-tank to squads which don't have any (such as Wyches) and including a couple pistols in these units can really help out in tight situations.
Logging you in...
Marshal_Wilhelm 61p · 748 weeks ago
I would like to see a DE vs DE tactica. We expect them to bully all those lack-of-finesse armies [like my poor Templars] but how about against their only equals ~ themselves? lol
I think the Leader is needed. Ld 9 is important, imo, when you don't have ATSKNF or a re-roll to bail you out.
Wyches. They aren't exactly hitty, ja? Are they just an envelope for Archons, etc?
Gx1080 · 748 weeks ago
150 pts for a good troop is a steal. Take them.
GDMNW · 748 weeks ago
48" Range S:X Rules: Heavy 1, Victory (Powered by WAAC energy cells the victory gun hits automatically and destroys its target on a 2+)
You know what? I think the same people who don't like blast pistols would be upset that the victory gun isn't twin-linked andheavy 3...
Blast pistols are cool and allow for even more flexible squad design. If you don't like them, leave them at home. Otherwise get ready to take realistic pot-shots are landraiders if the opportunity arises. Brilliant.
SageoftheTimes 77p · 748 weeks ago
In all seriousness, I'd say Haywire grenades are a better investment. Having most of the squad glance a tank is golden, and will cost less then the pistol. I can see some uses for it, it's just I'd rather have it in a dedicated assault unit that will ROCK close-combat.
Sorrowshard · 748 weeks ago
Its more the range that really causes any concern, 150 point troop sounds great , except its not really a solid troops choice, its 5 t3 models and a paper transport , very easy to kill and you need to be within 6" to get the benefit of the pistol (not helping that fragility at all), I cant really see 5 warriors being any good at defeating much in CC so I just dont get it. Why would you ever want to be that close ?
So no , I dont have a problem with the pistol its more I dont get this sudden fad for throwing them on mini warrior squad,s so I suppose over all I'm agreeing with Kirb , they aint shit, they indeed have their limited uses, its not like you were seeing plasma pistols everywhere was it ..... I really don't think the inferno should have been bought into mainstream use as its now the new yardstick by which all pistols will be measured.
Though I can see an argument for pistols on wyches making sense.
abusepuppy 121p · 748 weeks ago
Kirby 118p · 748 weeks ago
Am I speaking French? lol
GWvsJohn 44p · 748 weeks ago
As to the 6" you need to separate your lances in your head. Don't use the Lance warriors on transports. That leaves them open to return fire and a charge from the squad inside. Use long ranged lances to pop transports. Use the lance warriors on battletanks and speeder types. 2 lances has a decent chancre of shaking any vehicle protecting the fragile warriors and venom
neverXmoor · 748 weeks ago
Sorrowshard · 748 weeks ago
This is admittedly all theory and I will be happy to test it.
ERm, who needs to separate what , the 5 man mini squad is blaster and pistol and blaster , they need to be within 6" to be effective thats only ever going to be situationally useful , warriors in a venom should really not be that close to the enemy .
GWvsJohn 44p · 748 weeks ago
Warriors in a venom should absolutely be that close if thu have 2 lances. Zipping p and popping a rhino full of angry tactical marines? Stupid. Picking off land speeders, preds on the flank, getting behind the chimeras to shake hydras and medusa? Smart.
Sorrowshard · 748 weeks ago
Rather than argue about it too much I'm going to try and stay objective , maybe ill even playtest it a bit , but in my head its crap, its melta range but without the almost guarantee of damage a melta offers on a supremely fragile platform.
be interested to hear how it goes for you
abusepuppy 121p · 748 weeks ago
Joe G · 748 weeks ago
Compare this to the blast pistol. Typically, I've seen it on warrior squads and wych squads. The problem for the former is that on turn 1, they are unlikely to see use. Instead, they'll zoom forward, hopefully in a position to reduce enemy fire being pointed their direction. Or, if they do see use, it will most likely be just the blaster in the unit (as you can only move 6" and fire). Turn 2, assuming the venom/raider is still in one piece, they move forward 6" and will hopefully be able to get in range. Or, they move 12", pop out of their transport, hopefully kill something and die horribly in the return fire. So, I guess my point is the weapon is fine, and even functional in the current builds I've seen. But it is far from being reliable AT firepower. And at that point, is there a better, more reliable use of the points to accomplish the same goal?
With the wyches, it's a bit different, as the squad leader adds some hittyness to the unit, and will grant a chance of doing something against various vehicles that can present problems for such a CC oriented unit. Of course, I'm not generally a fan of wyches, as they excel at winning against units DE generally don't have trouble with. They do work well as a tarpit, but the fact that they will rarely win combat against many hard targets (though a hekatrix w/ agonizer will certainly help) means that this can fluctuate greatly. Obviously if there was a way to bump them up to 3 pain tokens quickly (cronos perhaps?), that would help quite a bit. Regardless, the additional points on a blast pistol aren't bad here in my opinion.
VT2 79p · 748 weeks ago
2) all are extremely short-ranged.
3) all are costly.
4) meltapistols come on dudes that don't risk death when vehicles go boom.
If you want to add a blastpistol, that's +25 points. Not cheap, at all.
4 blastpistols and sybarites equal another venom with 5 dudes on it, or a lord with a real blaster. In fact, 4 pistols are so expensive, you can put a ravager on the field instead.
It's priced as if it were a meltapistol, carried by a space marine. That's the problem.
Think of pistol sybarites like the dark eldar equivalent of marine powerfists. In other words, not utterly useless, but clearly a secondary piece of bling to put spare points towards, and act as a form of anti-armor insurance - rather than anti-character.
Kirby 118p · 748 weeks ago
That 25 points gives you an Ld boost to 9 (you complain about GH with 8 so shush) and doubles the effectiveness of Warrior anti-tank (assuming with a blaster) and infinitely improves Wych anti-tank by actually giving them a chance to take out tanks and they should have a Hekatrix anyway for a combat weapon. Wyches are combat units so are close anyway and 5 man warrior squads if anti-tanking are going to be close anyway, too (though it can be done from the safety of their transport).
If you want to run around with 5 man troops with only one anti-tank gun. Go for it. Even if infernous pistols weren't melta weapons or AP1 they'd still be taken in MSU BA armies because they provide two anti-tank shots in a 5 man squad.
Yes they aren't as widely applicable as infernous pistols because they are as good but in the above cases, very much worth it.
VT2 79p · 748 weeks ago
The infernus would not be favored without AP1, because angels get combi-meltas, too. Not all dinky squads BA put on the field even carry one, because 15 points is still expensive for a pistol that short-ranged. On sang guard, yes. Assault squads? Sometimes, but far from something you always include.
When I have 25 points left, I'll throw some on - just like I do with powerfists.
Remember, if you take nightshields on all your dinky units' transports, you can hang outside of rapidfire range all game long, shooting blasters at people, but if you want that extra lance to do something, you have to get within range of all the enemy's small-arms - which your vehicles happen to be allergic to.
Kirby 118p · 748 weeks ago
ASM always have infernous pistols when running MSU Mech unless you're really strapped for points. Again, double the chance is pretty damn good. MSU DE can run a bunch of Venoms with 5 man warrior squads in them for a bunch of anti-infantry and rely on things like Trueborn/Ravagers/Scourges for DL anti-tank but when those Warrior squads need to pop opne tanks that extra 15-25 points is well spent. When a unit breaks through you're a lot more comfortable throwing one unit forward to pop and block if it's got two lance weapons compared to 1.
It's not as applicable as the infernous pistol because yes, it is worse. But in the right setup, it's very useful and just like the infernous pistol if you really need to shave points (like say you need 10 more points for a Ravager), you drop em but they aren't add-ons and certainly aren't as bad as PFists on tac squads.
nfluger 60p · 748 weeks ago
Also, I think infernus pistols aren't as exciting in BA units simply because you have other options within the squad and paying another 15 points is just simply overkill. Whereas adding the only ranged anti-tank option to a squad of wyches might be more useful.
Kirby 118p · 748 weeks ago
Lyracian 59p · 748 weeks ago
Of course I am not sure I would ever actually take a five man warrior squad anyway...
Taters · 728 weeks ago
With that 6" range, I can't really imagine a venom surviving an entire enemy shooting phase only 12" away from a target.
If they have to disembark (venom moves 12", hop off 2", shoot 6") wouldn't a squad of five t3 5+ sv models be terribly vulnerable? Is this squad expected to die after stunning/hampering whatever their target is?
SageoftheTimes 77p · 728 weeks ago
They're good for SOME units, but not many, mainly assault units that could use a bit of tank popping. It's better to consider that, based on the number of times it's likely to be fired, it's more of a combi-lance.