G’day Kirby,
Just wondering if you can help me finish a 1750pt Imperial Fists list I’m trying to build. Truth is, I’ve been out of the hobby for about a year due to studying abroad, and before then I had only played Orks, but I’m about to head back into the hobby with a vengeance, and I want to play as the Emperor’s finest (I’m also trying to figure out a Wolves list I like that doesn’t involve Razorback spam as well).
I had a read of the various articles on your blog (having discovered it about 2 months ago), especially the codex review done up by VT2, and I must say they’re damn good stuff, and will certainly up my game. However, me and my group don’t strictly play competitively, but I’d still like to be able to do well with a relatively themed list on one of my favourite Chapters. I’m trying to build an IF list that’s centered around the Fists’ reputation for excelling in urban warfare (my group and I like playing with a lot of terrain), so that at least justifies the prodigious amounts of flamers and meltas (burn baby, burn). Terminators cause they rock (and are rocks), but I wanted something a little different than always seeing Assault Termies running around, and your idea of using them as a Bubblewrap is an idea that intrigued me, and I wish to try it. So without further ado, my list;
Librarian in Terminator Armour, Null Zone, Gate of Infinity 125
Tactical Squad, MM + Flamer, Sgt. with combi-melta and PF, Rhino 240
Tactical Squad, MM + Flamer, Sgt. with combi-melta and PF, Rhino 240
Full 10 man Sternguard Squad, Heavy flamer x2, Combi-melta x2, Rhino 315
Full 10 man Terminators Squad, CML x2, Chainfist 465
Predator, AC + HB x2 85
Predator, AC + HB x2 85
Landspeeder, HF, MM 70
Landspeeder, HF, MM 70
1695
As you can see the list is incomplete still, but the general idea is that the melta bunkers hit up midfield, the sternguard plug up any holes and roast stuff, while the termies may combat squad as needed, and provide ranged firepower. The dakkapreds will do what they were made for, and the landspeeders will zip around blowing stuff up, and hopefully survive to roast something. I have four concerns with my list; the lack of bodies on the field, (though that can’t be helped if I’m playing marines, and especially if I’m taking Terminators), lack of long-ranged firepower (I’m not sure if two preds is enough), lack of anything killy in close combat (probably the biggest problem), and I’m at a lost with what to do with my librarian. I just put him in termie armour, and my intention is to make him use Gate with the Termies and zip them around the battlefield wherever they’re needed, but I’m not sure if that’s the best idea. In all honesty, I just stuck him there to handle the terminators’ mobility issues, and to fulfill the HQ requirement.
I still have 55pts left to flush out to a full 1750pt list, however I’m just know you’re gonna tell me to get rid of the pfists in the list, giving me another 50pt for a full 105pt to play with (a whole Dreadnought), and it’s something I’m prepared to do, however I might add that amongst my group, powerfists are awfully feared, and essentially treat them as the ‘nukes’ they are. In any case, I’d like some advice regarding what to do with my left-over points . The easiest thing to do would be to remove the two pfists, and add in an extra Dakkapred, but I’d like to avoid running a third identical tank (or triples of anything really, it'd be so boring to paint and assemble otherwise). Another option, if I take the powerfists out, is to take out a sternguard and put in another librarian, this time with Null Zone and Force Dome, or Avenger for extra template goodness. In any case I’m scratching my head over this, and the simple arithmetic’s is just doing my head in.
Any advice from you (or any other author on 3++) would be greatly appreciated, especially on what to put the extra points into, and sorry for the long email. Cheers.
Ron.
Kirby asked me to have a look at this email from Ron. I hope you had a good year away Ron, we're all very jealous of you going away to 'study' for a year I'm sure. You've certainly selected a fine founding legion to start on your return.
I'm not certain I get how the list embodies the imperial fists' fluff, but we shalln't get into that argument now. If you hadn't mentioned you local groups style of play I'd have recommended a Vulkan list for SM at this level and with lots of terrain, but I'm sure your group wouldn't be impressed with a yellow Vulkan He'stan running round leading the VIIth Legion.
I'll look at the list coming from the perspective of you and your friends using a city/terrain-heavy board. This to me starts to nerf long-ranged units as LoS tends to be more difficult to achieve and preds need to be concerned as the manouvering that will be essential may start to expose side armour. Equally, this style of play makes several unit choices more dependable for the very same reason. Foot dreads (and I don't mean Riflemen) will be more functional and speeders are superb for this type of terrain - hopping over buildings to draw to disrupt and the terrain density makes them more survivable.
You say you like the thought of terminator bubble-wrap, but sadly with this list, it's just not possible. The rhinos want to move into mid-field turn 1, whilst the termies have to sacrifice shooting (and they're shooty termies) on the first turn if they have any hope at all of staying ahead of this advance. Gate is one way to get around this, but is a risky tactic on a terrain-heavy board, especially if you play impassable terrain. The predators won't have the impact they have in games with more standard terrain as I've mentioned before and I personally am not a massive fan of Sternguard (please don't shoot me VT2).
The 20 tacticals are sufficient in terms of numbers of troops, but I just don't see the 500 point investment gives much back. I now this tends to be the problem with tacticals, but I think you may benefit from razors in this environment as you have some scope to move AND shoot rather than one or the other.
If you're keen on going with something more along the lines of your list, I'd certainly find the points for a 3rd speeder and 2 smaller sternguard squads over one 10 man squad. A scoud squad would be nice, but probably unachievable. I think that would come out with a more balanced list that would be reasonable within a normal terrain environment.
However, this is something I'd consider for this type of play style.
Master of the Forge - Combi-melta - 110
Terminators (10) - 2 x CML, 2 x Chainfist - 470
Dreadnought - MM/DCCW/HF - 115
Dreadnought - MM/DCCW/HF - 115
Tactical Squad (5) - Razorback - Las/Plas - 165
Tactical Squad (5) - Razorback - Las/Plas - 165
Scout Squad - ML, camo-cloaks - 100
Scout Squad - ML, camo-cloaks - 100
Speeder - MM/HF - 70
Speeder - MM/HF - 70
Speeder - MM/HF - 70
Dreadnought - MM/DCCW/HF - 115
Dreadnought - MM/DCCW/HF - 115
That comes in at 1780, so needs some trimming but I think it's more suited to this play style. The 10 terminators will now be able to bubble wrap as the razors are likely going to be moving only 6" a turn. The dreads offer counter assault units and will make your opponent think twice about his assaults.
The 3 speeders and the 4 dreads offer true mobility with you melta weapons and each one packs a heavy flamer too. Two of your scoring units are hugely survivable with camo-cloaks and bolster defences. The main element I'm concerned about are the tactiacls themselves. I think you'd be at a miss without them in an IF list, but sadly, as per normal, tacticals offer very little except the opportunity to buy a tank.
*Please note the lack of power fists... I'll say no more ;P
