It’s a slow day so I’m going to put up some comments from the thread Puppy and I keep talking about over on BoLS by BBF. Again, he’s done a decent job of analysing the Jumper army but is fixated on a couple of things. Puppy’s already written his reply and I’m going to write mine. Maybe we can make FNIF Round 44!... So BBF really likes Stormravens in his Jumper lists and throws out the usual ‘you’re not using it right’, ‘it takes time to get used to’, ‘it works for met’, etc. arguments without actually refuting anything we’ve said. Let’s take a look at his most recent reply to me which I’ll snowmobile!
Kirby
You are starting to repeat the same things now. Well counter them. Do you really want to pay 200+ points for a single vehicle in an army which isn’t exactly hard to suppress? 3 BS4 MLs will do it without cover. You are also ignoring many of the points I've made why to run a Stormraven in a DoA army. Hmm I can't seem to recall me ignoring them; oh well let's see! And you are ignoring nearly every point we’ve made about why you shouldn’t include them; clearly tit for tat!
Most armies are mech now - anti tank and anti troop is rolled into one. What does mech have to do with anti-troop and anti-tank rolled into one? Duality was a concept used in 40k long before mech became predominate and there are a lot of armies which aren't mech. I'd say there's a pretty even mix of foot, hybrid and mech lists in terms of competitiveness. Whether this is reflected by player use on the tabletop I can't say as I live in comp-land so you don't see a lot of pure mech armies here. Regardless, this point actually goes against you. There's lots of tanks...so one tank isn't survivable (unless it's called the Achilles! lol). Why are you taking one stormraven in a foot army? Often the transport is anti troop and the squad is anti tank (melta vets in a chimera). Oh is this what you mean; army within an army and duality within a single FoC choice. No, this only happens with some armies. Most notably DE in nearly every single FoC. Sometimes the transport is anti tank and the squad is anti tank (melta vets in vendetta). Then sometimes they are both anti troop ( plasma vets in chimera). Basically versus mech if you shut down the vehicles you win. So your one vehicle is good why? A pure DoA list is very good with this and can handle both close range shooting and assaults very well. Correct. Your solution is to run the Devs which is not a real DoA army... a) according to you b) I never said it was, it's an alternative (and a better one than a stormraven...) c) it's not a solution, it's a different bloody army (no pun intended). Does it solve some of the issues Jumper lists have with MCs/Dreads/Fast Mech/etc.? Yes but it also makes the army weaker in other areas. This is called balance and I thank Games Workshop for creating it within their system in 5th edition. But apparently you want it to be. I am guessing you came here to toot your own horn which is fine but I think you've missed the main point of the article. a) no b) no, I came because I like Jumper armies, someone told me about this one, I read it and found it pretty good except for some points which I raised. *toot toot*! c) wasn't the point of the article to describe how jumper armies work and operate? if not then ya, I missed it. Bite me and explain it better.
Devs are old school. And work. I like to use new units. Is this an argument? It's more exciting for me. Ah an opinion; well that's okay! What you are failing to see is that sure the Stormraven might get shot down but if it fulfills it's role then it doesn't matter... This is true and is also true for the Devs which you and Grimm don't seem to want to see. Why is this argument allowed to work for you but not me? And what happens if it gets shot down and doesn't fulfill it's role which is quite likely? The role you imply from your article seems to be long-ranged anti-tank which is a vastly over-costed way to get anti-tank, particularly since the Jumpers drop in and do quite a bit of the dirty work early (Devs generally starting on the table). What use do you have for a single tank with some long-ranged anti-tank ability? When some powerful character with choppy Honor Guard and a crazed dreadnaught are rampaging in your lines it's game over. Okay, so now the Stormraven has a Dread, Character and HG in it? That's 600-700+ points and whilst it consists of separate units, it's an eggbasket and is obviously playing much more aggressively. This was not mentioned in your article as I will quote later. Many players run a large squad of terminators with a character(s) in a landraider - it's pretty much taken for granted this is a solid tactic tried and true. Ya and they generally run two Raiders, not one Stormraven and the Land Raiders aren't coming in after the rest of the army and if the Terminators are stopped the rest of their army is competent. Single rocks =/= solid tactic. The Stormraven is cheaper, faster and in most ways more resilient. yes, yes, no. More resilient against meltaguns (that's one), not against anything which is S8 or higher. Railguns laugh at you. More means greater than, not less than. Same thing applies to a Stormraven ferrying a squad of bad ass Blood Angels PLUS you can also take along a dread. In a way, yes but you still need two and you still need an army that works with it. Jumper armies do not for multiple reasons which have already been listed. You know, single vehicle (or two which still isn't enough armor saturation) in an edition where armies need to make sure they can deal with 10+ vehicles (and no, you will not regularly silence the majority of the anti-tank guns of an army at 1750-2000 points within a couple of turns with your Jumpers) kinda sticks out. Spending a lot of points on a unit which comes in after the rest of your army and doesn't add much to the list. Etc. Go ahead ignore the strength of the dread in this role. I don't care. But it's very strong. This is one reason why I say you're missing the point. So what were you saying ? Well in your article you never mentioned a Dread and you said "The Stormraven is your best long ranged anti tank firepower for DoA armies." If it's being long-ranged anti-tank and reserved, why the hell are there units in it? There's dual roles and then there's dropping points where they aren't needed. So what are you using the Raven for? Dropping in units which can drop in using actual DoA themselves plus a Dread or long-ranged anti-tank? If long-ranged anti-tank go Devs. Sure it's not pure Jumper but having a Raven in isn't either. If you still want pure Jumper and long-ranged anti-tank...well then you don't have any options and either go pure Jumper or dilute your force's effectiveness. When you add Devs yes, you dilute your force in terms of the Jumpers coming in but they aren't easy to shut down (multiple squads, don't get shaken, MEQ statlines, FNP, etc.) and a couple salvos from the missiles can really benefit the Jumpers.
You seem to have recognised the benefit of being able to hit armor at range for Jumper lists but are dropping a lot of points on a unit which isn't really that effective at it (200+ pts for 1 or 2 long-ranged anti-tank shots?) and is easy to shut down. If you're adding units like ASM/HG/etc to the Stormraven, well it's no longer ranged anti-tank, it's a transport and those ASM/HG would be much better off dropping with the main force. Either way you have conflicting roles which is not good. Dual roles is good. Conflicting is not. There's a subtle yet distinct difference between them. For example, having a couple of Stormravens which start on the board or come in from reserve outfitted with say typhoon ML, TL-PC and potentially hurricane bolters with a scoring unit in it (designed not to get out and assault) is a more viable. I still don't like it as they are still very susceptible to suppression but they offer ranged anti-infantry and anti-tank and are very mobile, can shoot on the move and are scoring. Now if you start adding Dreads in there or souped (tehehe) up combat units, the role of the Stormraven is clearly at odds. You're telling me it's designed to stay at range and provide long-ranged support yet outfitting it to drop units off in combat. See the difference? If you're just outfitting it to deliver combat units...why? First off you're suffering from eggbasket syndrome since you're only running one (beyond the likelihood of the Raven not surviving its drop) and your general DoA is better at it anyway.
So clarify please: what do you want the Raven to do? I think it's still a bad choice regardless but firming up what you want it to do may actually led to some fruitful discussion (I mean; I like the concept of the scoring and ranged Raven, not in a pure Jumper list perhaps but I do like it).
Anyway, go read Puppy's post ^^. And stop with the veiled insults; either do it directly or not at all.
