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Now, before we get properly into this, I want to clear up something. In my last article, everybody got their feathers ruffled because they thought I was saying Rhinos were better than Razors. No, they're both options, hell, they're both good options. The Rhino tends to get ignored these days (mistake) and I was just trying to show why it's a good unit. I do believe however, putting your troops in a rhino is better then having it in a Flamerback though. Just cause you don't have to disembark. Think of them as razorbacks with melta guns.
Ok, so, the list. I'll give you that first then talk about it.
5 Honour Guard w/2 Melta Guns + 2 Flamers in a Rhino
Sanguinary Priest w/Lightning Claw
5 Assault Marines w/Melta Gun, Infernus Pistol + Lightning Claw in a Rhino
5 Assault Marines w/Melta Gun in a Rhino (sangpriest here)
3x5 Assault Marines w/Melta Gun + Infernus Pistol in Rhinos
3x5 Devastators w/3 Missile Launchers in Razorbacks w/Twin Linked Heavy Flamers
1750
9 Tanks
46 Infantry
1 "Monstrous Creature" (well, he takes more firepower to bring down than any tank in this list)
Ok so, the premise of the list. Well you have 15 Devastators flinging missiles down the field, to shake threats (and destroy them, eventually), but the most obvious element is the 9 rhino chassis racing down the field towards you. How they work is, versus a mechanised opponent, the Flamerbacks get in front (they can shoot them if they want, doubt it'll make much difference) to screen and the whole shebang goes flying forwards turn one. Then you have 31 FnP marines in your face, as well as 12 meltas, all in transports. That's hard. There's also Mephiston.
Now, those Assault Marines stay in their transports and don't come out without fighting tooth and nail to stay in. They just roll about controlling movement (enemy can't come within 18" of one with a tank safely) and microwaving vehicles. When they are disembarked, they'll most likely have FnP, and are still holding that pair of melta guns. In addition they have Furious charge. All this bungled together means they're actually an assault threat, especially as they can shoot whatever they charge with a pair of meltaguns first.
The Honour Guard and Sanguinary Priest bring FNP/FC bubbles to my army (pretty cheaply) as well as an extra chassis and 2 more templates, and 3 meltas. They also fire out of the top of their rhino (which is nice) as well as pose a half decent combat threat (the HG are just an assault squad really, but the SP has a Lightning Claw!). Of course, they're the units that enable the combat threat, so don't want to disembark readily. While there are a pair of lightning claws scattered through the list, they're plan B. They enable 2 units to hack up tactical squads, rather than be an actual assault unit.
The Devastators are my counter-fire. They take out enemy ranged fire (even if it is temporary). Now, the reason I picked devastators is two-fold. One, they allow me to take the extra 3 razors, which provides my army with a real anti-infantry punch, as well as extra transports I can get my marines in. Second, they're actually pretty survivable against most "down the field" firepower. Most of that is stuff like Vendettas (i'm in cover, enjoy killing 1 marine), Rifledreads (same), Tyrannofexes? See my point? Devastators in cover are actually pretty survivable. Their rides roll up with the main bulk of the army and burn stuff that gets de-meched. Or ram tanks. S8 rams are hysterical at times, especially if you T-Bone a chimera. (:
Mephiston. He's probably my wild card. Without him all I'd have would be an extra assault squad. So why do I have him? Because he's really really good, and adds an assault element to an otherwise mediocre in melee army that I can't get otherwise without including a Land Raider. In addition, he means I autowin against some opponents (Tyranids come to mind, also Necrons) and he gives others an absolute nightmare (I think he'll be good vs Tau, as long as the tau don't explode his cover, just wreck it). Basically he is the counterpunch. You come too near the large group of rhinos, you have him to deal with. He can also tank hunt (6 S10 attacks isn't a laughing matter). And has the sole remaining plasma pistol in 5th edition. ;]
Ok, so, that's the army.You can see why the rhinos are good here, they're my short range anti tank, that I can use without exposing my (pretty vulnerable) troops. The list still has anti infantry. And the sky isn't falling. The only thing I'm thinking about changing in the army is dropping a Lightning Claw or two, and putting in some Dozer Blades. I'm pretty crazy when it comes to moving through terrain, but a lot of people (I've noticed) just don't do it with tanks, at all. I do, and I do it a lot. But the reason I'm thinking of it is with this army I'd really like to deploy in/behind terrain if I'm going second, and that could help, a lot.
Well guys, hope you enjoyed the article.
Logging you in...
Auretious Taak · 742 weeks ago
As to moving through terrain with vehicles...hello Tank shock from fast vehicles on the other side of a treeline, just out of the blue you scatter, very useful against otherwise safe units hiding.
To your list...lets be perfectly honest here, it's for a non-comp event...and I'd be very happy facing it with my Herohammer Space Wolves and indeed would be confident in beating your face in with them. The only issue is Mephiston, and your ap 1 firepower isn't long rantge enough to worry me before i crack you out of your vehicles, or rather, it's not scarying me enough as there isn't enough fear factor. Considering I see the Herohammer list as a stupidly silly one which turned out to be quite powerful in my hands alongside a bit of luck, you need to do something about that. I hit combat, you fold and die...simple as that, and as your army is short ranged, you're coming to me, so you are going to die because the Krak Missiles bounce off my units.
Against conventional non-comp lists, you get eaten alive fairly fast and all your assault marines are walking from the first or second turn (depending on when your opponent goes first) and then where are you at? You are missing massed long range suppression in the list, 9 ML's, 3 on 3 targets isn't going to cut it and indeed you're gonna get chewed alive...
Archnomad 70p · 742 weeks ago
Indeed, moving through terrain with tanks is totally underused. However I feel that in a setting with 5 objectives where armies with many deep striking components (DoA angels spring to mind) I may need to suddenly rush to one quarter. And failing that rough terrain roll could mean death. Not sure if I'll take them or not, I'll see if I end up needing them in games.
Err, don't see how that's all that relevant.
As to conventional non comp lists, I don't really see how. If I'm walking from turn 2, sure. I'm already at your deployment zone.. If I'm going second against a gunline (and I'm playing Lamenters, it's bound to happen all 6 games) then I will quite happily take dangerous terrain for a cover save. Way I see it it's a 1/6 chance of immobing myself (which I can repair later) or dying cause I'm out in the open. I'll take the 1/6. And if I get those rough terrain mods, it's 1/36.
Archnomad 70p · 742 weeks ago
Proper use of cover will mitigate alpha strikes. And in a format that has table quarters AND objectives, I'd much rather have second anyway.
However, I appreciate some lists will be able to run away from me, but the only lists that really outpace me in a bad way are Mechdar, DE and mech BA. Mechdar I'm not at all worried about, DE... if I get close, I'll be fine. That'll be a game of movement shenanigans indeed. and mech BA, well frankly I don't think the 24" keep away version is very good. So that kinda saves me selling a story on that one :D
Auretious Taak · 742 weeks ago
Your list doesn't have long range supprerssion fire that is needed at this points level ina non-comp event.
You are relying on the 2 sang priests or rather the Honour guard and the Sang Priest to keep your army at FnP, so asides from the 3 units of Devastators, those are the two key units to mess up. Mephiston is a pain in the arse, but hey, I'm ina rmoured bunkers too, and what's he gonna do? Charge one and destroy it? Good for him, the unit inside now moves away and you havee the option of hitting th unit or picking on another armoured mobile bunker. At this stage, your devsatators have been neutralised, and your inferno pistol/meltagun duo teams have to be within 6" to fire both so they are within charge range. relying on FnP when the enemy knows where to focus his/her attentions to get rid of it makes you more vulnerable again.
You simply don't have the long range suppression needed at this points level. It doesn't matter about all this 18" march blocking movement, if you've moved 18" you can't shoot the melta's so we instead shoot you out of your boxes and wipe out your small units or you know, move away so you can't wipe out our mobile bunkers.
It's an okay list, but it's not stronmg enough to beat a standard top tier non comp list. It simply can't suppress enough armour to guarantee getting into range to use any of those vaunted melta teams of yours.
Archnomad 70p · 742 weeks ago
Check out some other tournament winning army lists, they have around the same level.
That started out coherent and devolved into "Yeah but I, then I." and isn't a coherent argument, as arguing what would happen in a game beyond turn one is by and large impossible. Yes, the units with FnP are a big target, sure, but all lists have a unit to target. I don't see how that's a weakness, just part of the game.
Archnomad 70p · 742 weeks ago
Again, I'd have a look at some of the tourney winning armies of late (check the BFS for example). Suppression fire was largely forgone for killing power, exception Stelek, but he was playing a very shooty hybrid wolves variant, that still had midfield presence.
Sorry, but I simply disagree. I'll gladly play you on Vassal, but only if you stop being so personal and angry about it. I have a feeling if you act like you're acting now I wouldn't enjoy the game, which defeats the purpose for me. (:
Archnomad 70p · 742 weeks ago
As to Mephi, he doesn't have to disembark then assault, simply run straight into you. So he can go for a unit I've demeched that turn, rather than pussyfoot about.
Like I say again with suppression, look at recent tourney winning lists (BFS is a good example), not much suppression fire there.
Again, I disagree, as I've already said, I think you're overestimating suppression fire.
Bro_Lo 82p · 742 weeks ago
I'm pretty certain the list that was runner-up at Nova had no more ranged supression fire than Arch's list, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.
*after speaking to MVB it was trip Pred, dual Baal, 5 x 5 ASM in rhinos and Meph... so Arch's list has good pedigree!
Thanks MVB!
Bro_Lo 82p · 742 weeks ago
Or is Nova not a competitive tournament?
p.s. it ate my initial response and this was a less polite, shorter version. I love you really <3
Jabra · 742 weeks ago
Now I am not an experienced player, but I was wondering... It seems to me that 9 rhino rolling downfield is asking for blocks. Take a vannila marine army like Kirby's. He might roll two rhinos up midfield to block your movement. Combine that with pretty effective suppression (rifledreads and predators, that's 5 to 6 targets to worry about, where you can suppress 3, tops) that could stun or even immobillize the front running razors and you are looking a big pile of metal boxes in midfield. Which you have to get around to enter melta range...
Don't get me wrong... I like your idea, but would be your response to the enemy trying to block you?
Sneakydan · 742 weeks ago
VIC5 · 742 weeks ago
SneakyDan · 742 weeks ago
1) Not enough suppresion. Any razorspam army, or mech guard army, is going to eat this alive, and then destroy you as you walk across the board. Im not even going to discuss how much I would love to see that many AV11 hulls across from me with my Tau list.
2) Mobility is bad, for a BA list. Yes, you have turbocharged rhinos, but they cant move 12" and fire, like their razorback counterparts can. against anything but AV14, a TL Asscannon Razor is going to be almost as effective, and can move its full distance too! Add to this that the ASM inside can jump out, and increase the firepower of said vehicle by 1 (possibly 2) melta shots, and your lying in the dust.
3) Mephiston? Really? Any army with psychic defense is going to shut him down really quickly. No jump pack, no problem. Can't join units, and even with all those hulls, people are going to get firing solutions. I can understand the love of him, he is a pocket sized fury of funness, but at a no-comp event, I cant agree with taking him.
Chatbawks later mate, plenty to discuss.
Archnomad 70p · 742 weeks ago
Bro_Lo 82p · 742 weeks ago
Auretious Taak. · 742 weeks ago
We don't need to destroy you.
All we need to do is stun you. Then those boxes can't do jack. Then we are able to more effectively target fire. You are forced to sit tight and do nothing or get out and be exposed to concentrated death.
Further, you are under the impression that Suppression is about units that will do massive damage to us as your opponent.
No.
It is about neutralising key threats.
Me, bugger your devs mate, they can hurt 3 of my units a turn, so I take some licks whilst I demolish and suppress all the rhino's. The Razorbacks aren't carrying anything and can't hurt me except on 6's for a glance but that's not an issue. Sure you are fast, and if you get the first turn that plonks you 30" onto the board, but that also puts you in short range of my melta's, so I'll guarantee blowing up some of your vehicles and then, hey look, exposed weapons that hurt me, torrented fire till they die and systematically neutralise and suppress key threats. Your tanks are as much a threat as anything else with their rams so a stun is the aim, I get that I can move on first turn to focus where I see threat, ie the two FnP squads, but we'll focus las/plas into the units themselves and then no FnP for the army cause you are in my face. Shutting down most of your army, and more, your mobility is what will be your undoing and as Dan has stated above, most lists that are hardcore will just walk over your list.
Take it as constructive criticism, we've already recognised rhino's have their place and it's not an attack on the list or your capabilities, but you don't even have alot of targets...you're looking at 15 vehicles in many lists at this level incorporating support, core and sacrificial/movement blocking elements. 15 bitches the shit out of 9 targets and you suppressing 3 of those, which may well have cover saves because of target saturation is gonna be like pissing in the wind.
ManusCelerDei 53p · 742 weeks ago
Libby-115
sanguine shield, sanguine sword.
3 sanguinary priests-175
1 with infernus pistol, 1 with combi melta
5 assault marines-140 x4
Infernus pistol/power weapon sergeant, 1 melta gun
Razorback-55 x4
Twin linked assault cannons
Baal predator-145 x2
Twin linked assault cannon, two heavy bolters
5 Dev marines-130 x3
4 missile launchers
1750
I havent playtested it, but I think its overall more solid. 6 twin linked assault cannons, same number of missile launchers. I have less melta, but its more than compensated for with my ability to stun 9 vehicles between my tanks and devs as opposed to your 3. The biggest issue your rhinos have is how easy they are to stun, and then your guys have to get out. If you hop out of your rhino you might as well have had a razor that was putting shots down range. Finally, I know you have some complains about ba trying to play midfield. Thats not as all what my list is designed to do. It advances, but lays down serious covering fire in the process.
Kirby 118p · 742 weeks ago
the big thing I think you'll have issues with is you don't want to disembark. As you said, that first turn of 18" gives you a lot more options (and what I meant by blocking is you pay for those options but if you get blocked, you're just like a normal list) in subsequent turns but you're still not always going to be in range for top-hatch shots. If you get out and do things that's great as you've gained 6" on the competition comparatively but that was one of your issues with Razorbacks in having to get out.
Anyway, I don't think there are glaring issues with the list but I think the type of list you are doing is better done by Hybrid SW. Yes it's less aggressive and you get more ranged firepower, but your midfield is that more efficient and TWC trump ASM w/FNP/FC. I know you don't want to do this so I'd look at going back to the 6 Pred idea. Or maybe go 4-5 Pred with some Devs with Rhinos or Razorbacks. Again, the one thing I really don't like is having only one melta option in the Rhinos and the infernous pistol isn't so flash from the top-hatch.
I don't think mixing Rhinos and Razorbacks or even going all Rhinos is a bad idea; I just think some tweaking needs to be done.
Archnomad 70p · 742 weeks ago
Right Kirbs, I agree with what you say, Wolves do this better. I think while BA can bring a more assaulty element, Wolves make up for it by being able to absolutely destroy from the other end of the table.
Pretty much. I could happily run say....
Rune Priest
2x5 Wolf Scouts w/melta
6 Wolf Guard w/Combi melta + lasplas
4x5 GH w/Melta + Rhino
2 TWC
3 Long Fangs w/4 Missiles + Lasplas
Something like that. Should be around 1750. I reckon with BA I may just have to bank on the fast element and see what I can come up with. See, I'm still in a very space wolfy mindset (they're the army I have played most in 5E >_> ;)
ManusCelerDei 53p · 742 weeks ago